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Sorry folks, but I'm still trying to understand this.

I refilled the Hagen cannister with brand new yeast and it has been bubbling at 1 bubble/3 seconds. The cannister also contains baking soda as a stabilizer.

Yesterday, before I started this cannister, I had began incrementally adding just over 1/8 tsp of baking soda several times.

kH Before: 60ppm or 3.36 dkH
kH After: 80ppm or 4.48 dkH

pH Before: 7.5
pH After: 7.8
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Now that the co2 was bubbling at 1 bubble every 3 seconds, I checked pH about 2 hours later. It appeared to be 7.5 again. Could it drop this fast?

Fish seemed unaffected.

I was afraid to let it run overnight, so I pulled the tube from the cannister. It didn't start running until late. I'm going to check pH in the AM and then let it run all day to see how low it goes. I want to see where the pH stabilizes after a long daylong run.

It seems like fish are tolerant of pH swings related to co2? Is it my imagination? Yesterday when the bubbler was running 3 bubbles/sec (an accident ), the pH dropped all the way to at least 7.0 and the fish seemed fine. I had put too much yeast in and proofed it at 95F . It got kick started alright.

What gives? Everything I've read says fish shouldn't be exposed to more than 0.2 change in pH in 24 hours, and absolute max would be 0.4, provided it is spaced out throughout the day. I'm so puzzled by this.

yeah, your ph will drop after a few hours, especially if you're using a pressurized system. with your kh >4, i wouldn't expect it to drop much below about 6.4 if it's working correctly. and that would be after 8-12 hours of use.

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"That's the trouble with political jokes in this country... they get elected!" -- Dave Lippman

Yep,Co2 dissolves in water very easily so the pH drop can be fast. Fish aren't biothered too much by a change in Ph. What will bother them is the pH swinging up down and all over the place.

For that reason I would suggest if this batch is bubbling nicely keep it there. If you keep pulling it out everytime you see the pH drop or try some other means to raise the pH then you are going to create the kind of swings that will disturb them.

With your current KH and assumming a decent rate of bubble production your pH will only fall to about 6.8. This is fine for the fish, very comfortable.

Don't sweat it

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yep Di, I agree, as long as your are getting bubbles I wouldn't worry to much about the drop in PH. It is slow enough that it doesn't seem to stress the fish at all.

But when you go mucking with, trying to raise it or you keep trying dif mixes then you get the stressful PH swings.

I would say one of the most important things a DIY CO2 person can do is learn their system and get a feel for when they need to get a new mixture ready, about a day before it will need it.

I log my recipes to see which one worked best with my tap water chemistry.

Ok - this one continues to run at about 1 bubble every 3 seconds, so that is a pretty steady rate after 24 hours.

I did pull the hose from the cannister last night and put it back in this morning. It started right back up at the same rate.

I really didn't want a 6.8 pH . I have fish quarantined in other tanks that will need to be moved back into the main tank. How do I deal with them in 7.6 and the main tank at 6.8?

Would anyone be surprised if I said my kH was down to 7 (70ppm) drops from 8 drops (80ppm) yesterday? I added just under 1/8 tsp baking soda again today to bring it back up.

Would Flourish Excel have given me a temporary hardness change? I added it earlier yesterday.

I can't imagine what this Hagen thing would do to pH on a 5 gallon - the low end for which it is rated.

Also, lets say I'm at work and the co2 runs out early in the day. How do the fish deal with the sudden loss?

I know I've asked this before, but I'm so insecure over this .

I think I should go out and get me some more plants as there aren't that many left. Something needs to soak in that co2.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 25-Feb-2005 10:20

Last edited by Cory_Di at 25-Feb-2005 10:21

Dian, Take a breath!

Acclimating the fish to a lower PH is really no different then when you do it with newbs you just bought.

Just soak them in the tank, and every 10-15 mins add some water from the tank. Depending on the fish and how hardy they are will determine how long you need to do this.

Blue rams for instance, I normally acclimate them for about 2 hrs.

If for some reason it should just stop working during the day. Again not much to worry about, it should give clear indication that it is running low. The bubble count should start to drastically drop. Even if it does stop, fish seem to be more tolerant to PH up swings than PH drops.

But really the upswing would more than likely be slow enough to consider it acclimating them to the new PH.

I would be on the cautious side, and change out the mix if I noticed a drastic drop in my bubble count, and I know you will be too.

Last edited by Shannen at 25-Feb-2005 11:39

I'm resting easier now that I see my fishies aren't going to croak on me. They are so much more valuable to me than my plants

Well, that 1/8 tsp I added brought the kH back up, but higher than I expected.

Latest readings at midday:

kH: 5.04 dkH (90ppm)
pH: 7.2

I have a feeling with that kH, the pH will pretty much remain close to where it is at.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 25-Feb-2005 15:02

Ummm, Di? Remember that old pH/KH/CO2 thingie. You know that table that says if your pH is 7.0 and your KH is 5 then you have 14.7 CO2 mg/liter?

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml

So let's say you KH is 5.0 and your pH is currently 7.0, but you have just put a double dose of fresh yeast and enough sugar into your reactor to send a choirboy to the moon. Let's say that you are not putting out 5 bps (bubbles per second, but it IS ounced burps). Guess what, pH slides down as you have increased CO2 in solution and the KH leg is fixed or not changing.

However, a KH that is 5dGH gives you the ability to increase your CO2 mg/ltr to 23 from 14.7 before your pH slides to 6.8 from 7.0. In fact, your CO2 will rise to 37.0 before your pH goes to 6.6.

That fixed KH leg is most important when playing with fire. Ooops! I meant CO2.

Last edited by bob wesolowski at 25-Feb-2005 16:40

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

OK - here's the latest data with the Nutrafin system running throughout the night.

Unfortunately, I woke up too late to get that pH reading before some dim room lights went on. Tank lights were off and the thing is in the basement so it wasn't too bright. They were on for about an hour and my pH reading was the same at 7.2.

I'm still getting 1 bubble every 3 seconds.

I'll set my clock tomorrow morning to get up before the dim room light goes on.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 26-Feb-2005 10:47

OK - according to the calculator at this site, My co2 level is approximately 8.518, based on pH of 7.2 and kH of 80ppm or 4.48 dkH.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

This is not quite the 10-24 I was hoping for so after recognizing that the bubbles are coming out as fast as they can, now it is time to look at ways of reducing surface agitation.

For now, I have lifted the intake tube slightly on the Penguin 170. I've been contemplating a move to a new filter, like a Marineland Millenium. It is a power filter, but doesn't have all the splash of the biowheel. Would I get any better results? I'll entertain any system that provides for a separate biofilter from the chemical/mechanical. The early whisper filters were awful in that when you replaced the biobag (can only rinse so many times), you ended up with a mini-cycle. . Now, Tetra has gotten the message and provides a separate foam insert, as have some other makers.

I have a sponge filter in the corner of my tank and I'm keeping that . I'm very partial to one sponge filter in every tank for power outages and added biofiltration. I lived through a stint where power outages were happening weekly and the sponge filters made it easy. Rather than hooking the battery operated air pump to an airstone, I just switch it to the sponge filter. I also use the sponges for quick setup of other tanks like quarantine.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 26-Feb-2005 11:47