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Hey everyone out there,

Well after saving up a fair amount of money to up grade my tank from a 20 gallon to 40 - 45 gallon I now need a lot of advice from you guys so please bear with me. I made a list of what I'm sure I need but I'm sure I'm missing things and any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. This is my first experience with live plants and need as much info as possible in hopes of being successful.

Stand (already have, it holds up to a 45 gallon)
tank ( I'm considering doing a 45 instead of a 40, because I have the space so why not use it)
heater ( I believe I need a 200 watt for the 45 gallon tank ?)
background
filter (already have)
plants ( i need the most advice on this) ( i believe these are best for a beginner)
foreground ( Anubius nana, Micro Sword)
mid (java fern, ludwigia,water sprite, Dwarf Sagittaria)
background (Anacharis,Temple,Wisteria,myrio)
lighting ( i recently read a thread about up grading a light system to produce more light so what i have gathered is to get a glass top then get a duel tube shop light and two 40 - 48 watt bulbs)
eco complete substrate
drift wood
caves ( for my rainbow shark)
Florish Excels, Potassium, Iron, Phosphate (i think that right?)


missing anything, advice, suggestions all welcome. I'm trying to do as much research as possible, but I am getting a lot of contradicting info so anything that is relatively consistent would be much appreciated.


Thanks to all in advance
tigermom

Hi there tigermom,

You sure have your work cut out for you and I am glad you start asking about it before you have everything already set up. Let me try to quickly respond to your shopping list, responding in detail would fill way more space than one post can handle:

Stand - Good that you have one, what is its dimensions and does it have a storage area underneath?

Tank - Sure thing, the bigger the better, with some exceptions. For example, not always is higher better. What would be the dimensions of the 40 and the 45?

Heater - 200w should be fine, for tanks in normal temperature range room. If your room gets really cold you may consider 2x150w or 300w.

Background - I suggest a simple very dark blue or black, no print of rocks, plants, fish, or what not.

Filter - What filter do you have?

Plants - Will heavily depend on lighting and ferts. In general, with regard to your plant list:
* foreground:
Anubias nana - too big for foreground, Nana Petites would work though very well
Micro Sword - needs quite some light and is not my favorite anymore, but could be ok
* mid:
java fern - nice, but over time will grow too tall for a true midground in a 40g
ludwigia - same as above
water sprite - same as above
Dwarf Sagittaria - yes
* background:
Anacharis,Temple,Wisteria,myrio - could work

Lighting - Do you have a specific light in mind? It will define which plants will grow for you (depending on final tank dimensions), how often you have to add ferts, potential for CO2 addition (like Excel or injection) and so forth

Eco complete substrate - Sounds good to me

Drift wood - Very good, how about rocks as well?

Caves - What do you mean by that? Making one of rocks or plastic?

Florish Excels, Potassium, Iron, Phosphate - And Nitrate, scratch the Iron, instead add Flourish (itself, is a mix of micros). What you need and how much and how often will also depend on light and plants.

-- You speak of a Rainbow Shark for the tank, what other fish do you envision and how many of them?

That's it for now,

Hope it helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I don't know how your tank compares but looking at a list of specs on All-Glass tanks in the 40-45 gal range, the 40 Long is the only tank 48" long, the 40 Breeder and the 45 are both only 36". A shoplight is 48" with 40 watt bulbs, you do not want it hanging over the edges of a shorter tank.

Here are specs...

40 Breeder
36x18x16

40 Long
48x13x16

45 Gallon
36x12x24

Depending on the brand I suppose yours could be different. Personally, I would avoid a 45 with those dimensions as it is the tallest and narrowest tank, good for looking at fish but a pain to scape. It depends on your space, fish choice, preference, etc...

Plants:
I recommend the ludwigia, water sprite, and wisteria. Most of the others should be fine too. I'm with LF, microsword is not a favorite of mine. I have heard of anacharis reacting badly to ferts. Also, myrio may collect tank debris so keep the water very clean. It does best with quite a lot of light.

Sounds like a good start. Lets see your fish list!

I rock in the same boat as LITTLE_FISH and lioness so I wont re-comment on what has been commented on.

I will though give you some websites to gain some more food for thought when it comes to doing a planted tank.

~1st ~ Fertilizers: This website sells dry ferts that will be much cheaper than using liquids. I would recommend like LF to use Seachems Flourish and Flourish Excel(if you do not run CO2)
www.aquariumfertilizer.com

~2nd ~ Estimative Index: This is a way of dosing fertilizers.

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/62-estimative-index-dosing-no-need-test-kits.html
This link makes the top one much simpler.
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2819-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html

~3rd ~ Pre plan the scape of the tank
Take some time before you decide to throw it all together and draw out a plan. It will make life a little easier when it comes time to really put it all together.

Overall I think you are off to a really good start. Much better than I was when I started out.

Feel free to ask more questions when you have them. We are here to help!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Tigermom , Sounds like your off to a great start . Lots of good advice from this crowd will help .
Do you have a stocking plan ?

Pics of the gear will help as well .

Hope it all goes well and good luck .

Garry/:'

Well after reading all your posts I kind of went into crisis mode. I mean I knew it took a lot to have a planted tank but now since I am the one doing it, it was a little over whelming. But I am still committed and willing and wanting to do the best I can.

Stand- the dimensions are 37.37" W x 13.12" D x 28.25" H and it does have storage with doors underneath
- The problem with this stand that I seem to have over looked is that it holds a 30/38/45 which is fine if I were to do a 45 but finding out that a 40 long is better I'm now second guessing. Another problem is that for some reason I could not locate 40 long aquariums any were. I was calling places that were a 2 hour drive away and still couldn't locate a thing.

-So now I'm considering to just continue with the 45 gal. idea and hope the fish don't mind the narrowness of the tank. But I do realize it will come with disadvantages.

- Another option is to sell or return my current stand and go with the 40 gallon breeder (would that be better)

Filter- I have is a Tetra Whisper 40 and I also have an aqua clear 20 from the tank I have established now.

Heater-I went and got a heater by Top Light for 40 - 75 gallons

Plants- I will keep in mind all that you all said, in all I'm just looking for good beginner plants that I can enjoy and won't die on me because I don't have enough light or something.

Light- Well because of the new information on the shop lights I'm thinking of getting this http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18369/si1381729/cl0/currentusasatellite3696wattpowercompactfixturesinglestripwlunarlight
I'm not exactly sure how many watts that would give me though

Decor- Yes I am doing rocks to, I went out yesterday and found a aquarium store that sells rocks to my surprise as I thought most didn't

Caves- What I meant by this is that I currently have a Rainbow shark and they need things like caves and such for hiding and protection. So yea ill probably just make out of PVC pipe and rocks

As far as fish go I am wanting to do a semi aggressive type of tank most likely. Just because I have the Rainbow shark and I have 6 tiger barbs (three green and three albino) They are right now pushing the 1 inch per gallon rule being about 2 inches under 20 all together so I really want to do my best to get them out.
As far as other fish I'm was thinking of increasing there school to 9 with three regular tigers. Other than that I'm all ears for other additions. I was considering maybe 1 or 2 blue gourami I've read that despite statements saying they are peaceful they are pretty aggressive so I'm sure it would work out fine. And I also like the idea of having a blue color fish compared to the green, gold, and red.

Thank you all for your replies they are very much appreciated and helpful.


tigermom

Hi,
The choices can, indeed, seem daunting. However, by
exploring before buying or before plunging is a very smart
thing to do.

With respect to the tank, a "show tank," one that is taller
than longer poses several difficulties. First, it is just
that, "tall." How high the stand is combined with how tall
the tank is can pose difficulties when trying to set it up,
spreading out the hard-scape(rocks etc), planting plants,
and finally cleaning the inside of the glass. You may need
a small step ladder to stand on so you can reach into the
further corners of the tank. "Tall" tanks also restrict
the number of fish that can comfortably be kept in the
tanks. Each fish respires at a different rate and each
species requires a certain amount of space.
These requirements translate into a certain amount of
surface area. A tank, such as a "breeder tank" that is
longer and wider rather than shorter and higher, has more
surface area for the exchange of gasses to the atmosphere.
Generally speaking then, a 40G breeder tank can support
more fish than a 40G show tank.
We place our aquarium lights on top of our tanks and force
the light down into the tank. As the light penetrates into
the tank toward the substrate, it is scattered by
particles, and absorbed. The result is that while you may
have a certain amount of light energy at the surface, by
the time the light gets down to the substrate, it can be
considerably less energy. Thus a "tall" tank can present
problems when lighting for plants. These are easily
overcome, but are another point to think about when
choosing a tank.

As far as how many Watts Per Gallon you would wind up with
when choosing one of those lights, it is a exercise in
simple math. Divide the total wattages of the bulb(s)
by the capacity of the tank.
For instance, a 45G tank with two 40 watt fluorescent tubes
would be 80/45 = 1.777 wpg. Or, 65/45 = 1.444 wpg.

As far as a tank heater(s) are concerned, the general Rule
of Thumb is to use 5 watts per gallon. Thus a 45G tank
would do best with a 225 watt heater. Now, one can "cheat"
a bit with this rule if $$ are critical but I would not
recommend it. If you keep the room that the tank is in at
70 degrees, then it won't take as much energy to hold the
tank at 76 degrees as it would if the room was normally at
65 degrees. As to if you have one or two heaters, it does
not make a whole lot of difference in a "tall" tank and
really only becomes a concern when you are dealing with
tanks that are 5 & 6 feet across. Normal circulation from
the filter will carry the heat throughout the tank.

As far as plants are concerned, as this is your first
foray into planted tanks, it would be best if you stuck
with low light, undemanding plants. The foreground plants
that you mentioned (probably envisioning a green carpet)
all require at least 3+ watts per gallon of light. That
much light further complicates things because you will
then have to provide the plants easy access to carbon.
That will require CO2 injection.
Try going to a plant site such as Arizona Gardens and look
at their "Plant packages." With your comments about light
you would want to look at the "low light, or easy care"
plant packages. There is no sense in purchasing a whole
variety of plants across the whole spectrum of demand, only
to have one one or two of the varieties survive. Stack the
deck in your favor and choose a package that will work in
your tank.
http://www.azgardens.com/newhabts2.php

Lastly, have you read the article "New to Plants" at the
top of this forum? If not, you should as it contains a
wealth of information for the beginner, and some not so
beginners.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I guess I might have jumped the gun with my links....

Sorry if I went over your head...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hey everyone,

Me again, just coming back to update. I unexpectedly went out of town so I didn't get started putting things together until recently. I did have access to a computer though so I did continue with research. I also figured I'd wait to reply until I was home with all my fish stuff so I could see what I was talking about. I ended up getting the 45 gallon tank. I set it up in my room with water and realized that the floor was uneven. I did have Styrofoam under but I rather be safe than sorry and there's no way I could deal with 45 gallons of water leaking in my room. (already had a 10 do it and it was not pretty, ruined a lot of stuff) I moved it to a level spot and put in the filter some gravel and the heater in. Problems that have arisen are

when I drained the 45 the first time I had put gravel in from my 20 with all the gunk. Then when I drained the tank there was still a little water on the bottom. I read that the once bacteria dies that it's toxic so I wonder if that was a bad idea.

Another is that my 45 is currently next to my 20 which I have up and running and my light fixture (on 45) requires 3 outlets. If I plug everything in, it will be about 12 different things plugged into 2 or 3 power strips in a regular outlet. I'm afraid I will start a fire. My point in being, will not having direct lights over the 45 pro long the cycling process? I could always move the 20 but the only open spot i have is were the ground wansnt level??!! Might have to change some things around : (

On another note I went to the pet store and got a bottle of Cycle and Seachem 7.0 buffer. I've been using the Cycle for 3 days, to read on here that your suppose to use fish. Why I didn't think of that I don't know. So now I have water with constantly dying bacteria? I also read that you can put food in the water as a substitute for waste that will decay and do the same thing as having fish?? I sprinkled some flakes into the water today but have no idea if that will make a difference. Like I mentioned above I also treated the water with the 7.0 buffer. My water has extremely high ph apparently because the test was off the charts. and my 20 gallon has about an 8.0.
once again have no idea if this will affect the cycling process.

Also here is the results for 7/8/07

Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.1
Nitrate 10
ph 8.6+

I'm wondering if it will be best if I take the whole thing down again and start over.'

As far as plants go, I was reading through past posts and read that fishless cycle and a planted fishless cycle are different. That the plants will absorb most to all the ammonia not allowing the bacteria to get a hold of it allowing it to grow. Along with this info I also read that cycling with a planted tank if you don't experience any of the normal spikes and such that it is likely you will down the road get them and possiblely kill the fish.

So now I am at a loss as to what to do. My initial thought was to do a fishless cycle with "Cycle" thinking I wouldn't need fish. Then empty out half the water with a filter on the bucket. Put in the eco complete and plants, put the water back in and be good to go.

Now with further research there are flaws with my plan, 1 I have way to much gravel in the tank now, which means I will be removing a lot of it for the eco-complete to go in. Problem is that the bacteria is on the gravel so that's a problem. Another is that Cycle needs fish and I'm not crazy about buying fish I don't want then retuning them. I was then considering getting the 3-4 fish that I want in the tank in the long run that are hardy. But then I don't want to risk diseases of the fish I have now.

I may be answering my own questions but from what I've seen and read others do. My best bet would be to drain my 45. Take out the gravel I don't want. Put my filter on my 20 so if there is any bacteria it will survive. Order my plants put them in along with the eco-complete as well as treat with cycle, ph buffer, and plant fertilizers. Put my 6 tigers from my 20 in. Wait a week or two to see if all is well then slowly start to add fish.

I'm hoping to get all my fish out my 20 first so that I can use it as a qt for any new fish.


Well if you stuck with me through all that I thank you and applaud you. Any suggests, corrections, concerns or advice will surely help. Thanks again for what you have already informed my of and what you can still tell me now.


tigermom : )

I also read the new to plants posts and they helped alot as well as the fertilzer web sites. Thanks a bunch

tigermom,

My head was spinning reading through your last entry

You have quite a lot going on there and it is rather hard to indicate what is causing what.

To begin with, why would one tank have a different ph than the other? Can that have something to do with the ph stabilizer that you add? They usually tend to throw off the readings of the ph kits.

Let us assume that your tank would settle at a ph of 8. In this case, keep in mind that some plants are not so good in such a rather high ph, although all your common low light plants are fine for sure, as in java fern, anubias, mosses, etc. Also, some fish are not made for a ph of 8, so before you were to go out and buy any do some research on that topic.

I think overall you should start again, in particular because you are planning to replace the substrate anyway. And this time around, forget the cycle stuff and the ph stabilizer, and instead add loads of plants from the get-go. And these plants should be fast growers, never mind if it doesn't look exactly how you want it later, just make sure that your desired hard-scape, as in rocks and wood, is already in place. Who cares if you can read cycle measurements? I sure don't, a planted tank is 1000 times safer for fish that a non-planted tank. Then let it all settle and only then start to add fish, your 6 tigers will be fine to be added at once, but leave a few weeks between adding more fish (which you then should put in the 20 as a QT first anyway).

If your ph is naturally at 8 then your tank seems highly qualified for a substrate that is called ADA Amazonia with its natural ph lowering abilities. It can be purchased for example HERE. Read up on it and ask questions.

Enough for now,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
I guess we should look at this a bit at a time...
If I'm reading this correctly, you positioned the 45G tank
and filled it using some water and "gunk" from the 20G
tank. After filling it, much to your dismay, you
discovered that the floor was uneven and so you drained the
45, and moved it to a level floor which also happens to be
along side your existing 20G tank. Your concern was that
the water that remained in the 45 during the move,
was now "contaminated" with the "gunk" from the 20G tank.
The answer to that concern is No, you did not create a
toxic environment in the 45. The bacteria don't die off
that fast, and the organic compounds in the "gunk" is still
potent enough to get the 45 off to a head start as far as
the Nitrogen Cycle is concerned.

The electrical concern is valid but I doubt that you will
have a problem if you purchase two electrical strips.
Purchase two strips with enough outlets so that you
can plug everything electrical for each tank into
one strip. In other words one strip for one tank.
There are two sockets per outlet, plug the strips
into (one to a socket) into a single outlet.
Household outlets are generally wired for 15 - 20 amps,
and I doubt that you will be anywhere near that amount
of current, total, for both tanks. Homes are broken
into separate circuits each controlled by a circuit
breaker. Some have one circuit breaker, generally
15A or 20A, for all the outlets in a home, and others
have separate breakers for each room, or a combination
of rooms.

As far as plants and tank cycling, I think you are reading
too much into what has been published.
If you set up the 45 with some plants and you opt for
either form of cycling, you will still see the normal
spikes as the ammonia develops and peaks, and then the
nitrite develops and peaks and then the nitrate develops.
For the plants to mask the formation of the various parts
of the cycling process, you would have to go nuts in
ordering plants, and have turned the tank into a jungle.
The plants do not stop the cycling process, nor do they
interfere with the cycling process. They simply mask the
process from your test kit.

Don't mix chemicals and compounds while cycling.
If you are fish less cycling, by all means add plants
to the tank, and follow the directions pertaining to fish less cycling.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html

If you have opted to cycle the tank with fish, choose
hardy fish, add plants, and then test, and watch the fish,
as the cycle progresses. A cycling tank can have
Ammonia peak at 6ppm, the Nitrite can peak at 10ppm,
and Nitrate should not be allowed to peak over 40ppm.
Do not do water changes while the tank is cycling
UNLESS the fish show signs of distress. Gasping at the
surface, laying in one place, not eating, are all signs
of distress in fish. If you see that happening, then do a
20% water change. If you do too large a water change then
you are diluting the "soup" and can prolong the process.

Many of us "old-timers" complain that we live in a society
today where folks demand instant responses and satisfaction
to our needs and wants. Many of the chemicals we use in
todays aquariums are the result of that need. Folks want
to buy the tank, dump in the gravel, pour in the water,
add the plants, stir in the fish, and walk away to enjoy
the results. Despite how many chemicals we dump in the
tank to "promote" or "hasten" the nitrogen cycle along,
the bacteria still takes time to grow. Adding "dirt" from
and existing tank or filter, just puts the bacteria in the
tank. Instead of forming naturally off the waste products
of ammonia, we put established bacteria into the tank,
shortening the process. You still have to feed the
bacteria. You can do that by adding ammonia (fish less
cycling) or adding fish. Then, the bacteria colonies need
to grow and infiltrate the substrate, the inside surfaces
of the tank and ornaments, as well as the aquarium filter.
All that takes time.

Honestly I've never used those chemicals so I
can't address them specifically.

I prefer to cycle a tank "naturally."
At first I used fish, exposing them to worsening
water conditions and killing off quite a few.
When Fish less Cycling was discovered and published I
then switched to that.
Now I plant my tanks, arranging the plants as I like
them, and then add pure, unscented, ammonia to the
tank. Then once the tank has cycled, I purchase the
fish I want and enjoy the tank.

Before you "panic" about the pH of your water, you should
confirm your readings by trying to duplicate them with
another test kit. If you are using stips, or an outdated
test kit, the readings could be way off the mark.
The best kits that give the most accuracy for the price
are ones such as Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. Their
Freshwater Master Test Kit will give reliable results
when testing for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, General Hardness
(GH), and Carbonate Hardness (KH). Another way to verify
your results is to take a sample to your LFS and ask them
to test it (generally they do it for free).

The two tanks both have a pH reading of 8, if one was
in the 6s or 7s, and the new one in the 8s, I might be
concerned, but for now I think its too soon to worry.

As far as switching to EcoComplete is concerned, if you
have absolutely decided that is the substrate you want
instead of the current gravel, then I'd say now is the time
to simply tear the tank apart, remove the gravel, and do
the switch over. The tank is in the beginnings of the
cycle process, and there is nothing to be gained by
waiting. I'd drain the tank, remove the gravel, add the
new substrate, plant the plants, and then start the fish
less cycle. You do not need to put the 45's filter on the
20. The ammonia that you add to the 45 for the cycling
process will feed the bacteria in the filter and keep the
colonies quite healthy and may even speed up the cycling
process. Cycling a tank takes weeks, not days, so the
new fish will have to be housed in the 20 temporarily.

Remember, a tank has not cycled until you have ZERO
readings for BOTH Ammonia, and Nitrite.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hey everyone,

So after like a month and a half I finally have got all my supplies! All the advice that you all provided and going through other posts all have REALLY helped. Yesterday my plant package arrived after an anxious week of delayed delivery : ( My current plants are Java Fern (attacked to driftwood), Hornwort, Red Wenditii, Dwarf sag.,Red tiger lotus, Wisteria, and a free be that I don't know (think its red myrio). I am also planning on going to this LFS I found that sales only aquatic life and plants to see if they have Water Sprite and Vals. As I was advised and read, right now it's should mostly be about getting fast growers in there and getting everything established than I can change things around. I still haven't set up a fertilizer regime, or put in the root tabs...should I be doing that right away or let everything settle for a day or two first? I plan on transferring my 6 tiger barbs to the 45 in 6 days. After their treatment with Melifix in the 20 gallon. I am going to watch them closely while there in there. Then my plan after a week was to transfer my rainbow shark? Do you think a week is to short of a wait? Maybe I should wait until my parameters are right?

Once I got my light and saw how bright It is I was surprised. If I wasn't told I would definitely think I was in the high light range, but I am actually in the low light. I am worried about how bright it is for my barbs. I am thinking of getting a few floating plants or something like duckweed or water lettuce to provide a little shade.


Well that's all for now thanks so much!!!!!



tigermom