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Hi,

I'm currently fishless cycling my 3rd tank (30"x12"x15"H, 88L/23g) with pure ammonia. I have a river sand substrate with laterite base, and I've planted the following plants: hygrophila polysperma, ludwigia repens, blue stricta, narrow leaf chain swords, amazon sword, ambulia, corkscrew vals, and Java moss on 2 driftwoods. For light, I have a double compact flourescent reflectors with 2x40w 6500K colour temperature tubes (with separate switches). The thing is the light fixture doesn't cover the entire length of the tank as it is only 24" long, so I put it in the center.

What I have done in the past 4 days is only switch on one tube (40w = 1.7 watts/gal) for 10 hours a day. Do you think that's sufficient or should I turn on both tubes (~3.5 watts/gal)? I was afraid that too much light might cause algae problems. Also, do you think I can get away with just using Flourish Excel as carbon source without a CO2 unit? I'm not very handy to try a DIY unit and real CO2 units cost a lot of $$$ here. The only other option is the CO2 units by Red Sea or Sera, which cost around $50, but you need to buy the tablets regularly.

Thanks in advance!

-P

Hi,
I think I'd run both lights...However I would hook them
up to two timers, one for each. Set one at 10 hours, and
the other to come on for a four hour period in the middle
of the 10 hour session. With a new setup and new plants,
you have to realize it takes plants a few days to acclimate
to their new tank and its conditions. During that time
they consume much of their energy reserves and once the
roots start to sprout they gradually begin to process the
nutrients within the substrate. Unless you have floating
plants, or some really fast growing plants, it is quite easy
for algae to get started and gain the upper hand.

Because the light is located in the central part of the
tank, you might consider placing the planted driftwood
and the ambula off to the sides. Place the chain swords
in the center area (below the brightest light) and keep it
as an obstruction free "swimming" area for the fish. The
other plants could form boundaries around the swimming area
and blend in with the Driftwood.

With that much light (wpg) you will want to run CO2
injection. WIth a 23G tank a DIY system is quite managable.
The other systems do require regular purchases of tablets
to create the CO2 and that is why I discarded that idea.
Others on this site are using them and can tell you how long
a tablet, or a supply lasts, I don't know. Flourish is one
option. As I mentioned if you don't have any floating
plants in the tank, and you use the high light, and you use
the liquid fertilizers, you do run the risk of algae taking
root and even taking over, before the plants can get up to
speed and out compete the algae for the nutrients.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 05-Aug-2005 01:32

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

hey upikabu
c02 presurised is not all that expensive here just depends on what you want
tunze regulator under $150 hire of bottle is costing me $15 per year refill is costing $33 bottle the last bottle lasted year and half (size of a scuba tank)and is from home brew shop in melbourne
my bubble counter is plastic softdrink bottle
dependig on if you want to run your co2 through exsisting pump filter or powerhead bell add another $50 dollars for parts or a pump ???

ray
pritch_@tpg.com.au

upikabu,

Most of your plants would survive on the 1.7wpg but they certainly would perform better with the doubled amount. Frank basically says it all (as usual).

The one thing I would like to add is regarding the way you phrase your CO2 question. It seems to me that you are not asking what to do (as you probably knew the answer already), but rather need support to make that mental step towards a CO2 system (may it be DIY or purchased). In my mind there is no doubt that sooner or later this is exactly what you are going to do anyway. I would shoot for sooner as you will love it.

Come on, go for it

Ingo

PS: BTW &#8211; what other fertilizers are you using in your tank (besides the laterite)?

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thank you for the replies.

Frank: unfortunately both bulbs run under one plug, so using a timer it's either only one or both on at any one time. based on what you said about acclimation stage for new plants, I'll stay with the one light for now until they get more established.

Here's a pic of the tank now:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/tank3_wk1.jpg
As you can see, the blue stricta and ambulia are on the sides already. I hope these corkscrew vals will be ok in this tank, b/c the ones in my low-light (1w/g) tank are not doing well. BTW, how do you prune ambulias to make sure it doesn't obstruct the light to the lower plants? Just cut some from the top?

Ingo - are you psychic or something? You totally read my mind.
I guess I'm still a bit skeptical about my ability to keep plants, since this is only my second planted tank and the plants in my first attempt (the low-light tank) is not doing that well. The few articles I've read about putting together a DIY CO2 system didn't seem very straight-forward to me. Any good tips to give me that kick in the rear end to just go and do it? I wish I could see a simple DIY setup IRL.

Oh, and I haven't added any other fertilizer yet since I don't want to give algae a head start, but I have Seachem Flourish liquid if needed. How long does laterite usually last? Do you need to use liquid fertilizer in addition to it, or only when the laterite is no longer effective?

Ray - I'm in Brisbane, and the one LFS I talked to said there's only one place here that can refill a CO2 tank and it's costly (whether or not he's pulling my leg I don't know). Also, having a gas tank in the house is probably not an option for me since I have a toddler running loose.


-P

For a 23gal the Hagen Nutra-fin system should work fine.

Once the little packets run out (or you throw them away because they suck) just start using sugar, yeast and baking soda.

Work for me although I do also dose Seachem Flourish Excel

upikabu,

First off, your tank looks beautiful. You were able to purchase Ambulia that is already 15&#8221; tall? The ones at my LFS are much smaller (and probably not available anymore as they just have become a US national noxious weed).

Next, no I cannot read your mind , but I am going through the same process on my 29G. One week ago I upgraded to 2.25wpg and somehow I know that eventually I will add CO2. Aren&#8217;t we fish people all alike
Btw, I have a 30&#8221; long tank as well and I bought a 30&#8221; fixture (although with 65w) and the &#8220;bulb&#8221; does not fill its entire length. But because the fixture is long, I get a rather even light along my entire tank.

Ferts, well - that is a major topic in itself and we could write for hours covering the basics. I would really suggest that you read through various posts in this forum as there is sooooo much information available. Laterite in itself will not do it as, for example your Ambulia, various plants take their nutrition out of the water column. From what I have heard, laterite &#8220;burns out&#8221; after about a year or two, depending on the plants etc.

As I have not done any DYI I cannot help you with it in detail, but so much has been written about this topic as well that it cannot be that hard to figure out. I know that Babelfish is an expert in this.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Nice looking tank

I'd go with 1 set of lights.

For a non - Co2 set up a good method is no water changes. Yep none, except every 6 months or so.Just top up evaporation with tap water.

Fill it out with more easy plants.Lots.

If The fish load is light a weekly dosing of a very small amounts of KNO3 and KH2PO4 , just a tiny pinch about an 1/8 teaspoon of KNO3 and 1/16th for PO4 ,and about 5mls of liquid fert. I'd probably do it anyway.

If you decide to use the Excel do water changes.

Growth will be very very slow but you will have very few issues and very little maintenance.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

kmpaton - thanks a lot for pointing out that you can make your own solution for the Nutrafin system. I didn't know that, and after what I've just read in previous posts about it, I think I will give that system a go first.

Ingo - thanks for the compliment. I really just threw those plants in without much thought since I reckon I'll have to rearrange them anyways. I got the ambulia (and most of the other plants) as part of a plant package deal from an online company; I too was surprised it was that big! The leaves are a bit messy, but not nearly as much as wisteria (hate them with passion!). Anyways, let us know which CO2 unit you'll end up getting/making!

Hi bensaf - thanks for your tips. I have to admit I'm a bit shocked at your no-water-change-for-6-month advice. Can you elaborate a little bit what's the reasoning behind it? I've been thinking about it but still can't figure out (sorry, it's late here &amp; I should be sleeping! ). Is it something to do with CO2 buildup in aged water?

-P

Quite the opposite. It's to minimise Co2 ! Algae like Co2 too !

When injecting additional C02 you put in high quantities that favor plant growth. By injecting C02 you can keep it high and just as importantly STABLE.

The low Co2 levels in a non injected tank don't really favor plants but would be enough for algae to get by. Tap water is rich in Co2 , by doing water changes, you are adding a bit more Co2 , again more favorable for algae , and now your Co2 level is low and UNSTABLE.

So it's really for algae control.

I use Tom Barrs EI method for Co2 tanks which works beautifully. He suggested this method for non Co2. Works just as well.

The "no water changes" is a big mental hurdle for people to get over. But when you think about it why do we do WC's ? To prevent build up of nitrates and other things. Well in a well planted tank nitrate build up is not an issue, running out of nitrate is more likely. The plants keep the water clean and well oxygenated. The WC every few months prevents the build up of metals and solids.

There are other things you can do with this method to tip further in your favour. Add algae eaters or shrimp, Tom also reccomends a bit of Seachem Equilibrium to keep GH up.

Growth IS painfully slow, but there is very little chance of algae problems and maintenance is very very easy. It's good for having a lot of planted tanks.

Last edited by bensaf at 05-Aug-2005 21:01

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I agree with everything Bensaf said, I usually go low light and no CO2 and there is very little maintenance other than occasional dosing and I like to do 10% water changes every month or so because it works for me. Low maintenance is good in my case because a lot of the time I don't have the energy to be spending on too many high maintenance tanks.

One book I think is excellent even though I have only read excerpts of it is

The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium

by Diana Walstad. This book has been highly recommended to me by a lot of plant people and you can read a few excerpts from it at this link: http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/rr00388.htm#SAMPLE

I haven't got the book myself because I don't have the $$$ for it yet (am ordering it as soon as I do). From what i can tell it reads kind of like a science textbook but her "natural" tank methods are backed up very well by a lot of research and scientific proof. If you're into science at all (like me ) then this book is supposed to be excellent. The only complaint I have seen about it is that it isn't really pretty or a coffee table book like the Amano books are, IMO that's the best part about it. The hobby desperately needs more thought put into the scientific parts. I like that the focus is on plant health rather than aquascaping for once.

Anyway, enough rambling. The only thing I would add is that if you are going to go without CO2 you will need to remember that growth rate will be much slower than it is in a CO2 injected tank. Most plants do just fine in non-co2 tanks other than a few really picky exotic ones. Also your laterite base is OK, I use laterite on all of my planted tanks (I like the price) but you will probably want to supplement that with some other substrate additive. I get much better results when I combine laterite with something else, usually root tabs/spikes or peat.

Another hurdle people have a lot of trouble with when you're talking natural tanks is that you don't need a filter. It is good to have some water movement IME but a powerhead or small filter works (internal is better to reduce surface agitation)..... On a 23 you could go with 100 GPH and be fine.

If you do go without CO2 I would use the lighting period Frank gave. 3.5 wpg on a natural tank would probably starve your plants really quickly IMO, the plants grow so quickly that they just exhaust everything, you'd most likely have algae problems because you don't have any CO2, and you would just end up converting it to a higher tech setup to match the light. Even 1.7 wpg all day would be fine. I have happy plants in about 1.2 wpg.

Last edited by trystianity at 06-Aug-2005 07:54

Bensaf &amp; Trystianity: thank you for opening my eyes to the non-CO2 method. I've been reading about Tom Barr's EI method and I might give this non-CO2 thing a try. Low maintenance is definitely my preferred option, since I have two other tanks and a family to take care of. The no water change is still a hurdle for me to get over though, especially since I'm planning to put some rare (read: expensive) corys and dwarf cichlids in that tank, both of which by all accounts "need" very regular (at least weekly) water changes. Will weekly water changes pretty much defeat the purpose of the non-CO2 method, or can I get away with it?

As far as additional nutrients for plants, are additional nitrate and phosphate really needed once I have fish? based on my other two tanks and my scheduled feeding regimen, I get nitrate reading of 5-10ppm (and I heard fish food contains phosphate). I already have Seachem Flourish and planning to get Seachem Potassium (which actually wasn't mentioned in the EI method, but the Equilbrium product contains quite a bit of Potassium). Just wondering if I need the other two as well.

Thanks again, you guys have been so helpful!

Last edited by upikabu at 07-Aug-2005 19:46

Last edited by upikabu at 07-Aug-2005 19:47

-P

As far as additional nutrients for plants, are additional nitrate and phosphate really needed once I have fish?

It depends. Depends on the quantity of fish and plants, and how quickly the plants uptake what's already available.
You may not need, I certainly wouldn't add straight away. You can keep an eye on the plants or whip out the test kits to measure uptake. Having all the nutrients available will help grow a wider range of plants. Some will do fine even in cases where a particular nutrient is mildly deficient, others will suffer badly in the same environment. The nutrients help grow the more tricky plants in a non-Co2 environment. The nutrients are required by plants, how you get them in is doesn't really matter, if the fish and fish food can provide it, that's ok. In a bright, Co2 injected tank growth will so strong that the addition of N03 and PO4 is a neccessity.

The adding of N and P as well as the no water changes are big hurdles for people to get over. It goes against everything that was drilled into them about the hobby. But then again people used to think the world was flat. The usual reason why certain fish are said to need regular water changes is to keep the water free of nitrates. Healthy plants will keep nitrates more managable then any water change routine. Plants are consuming Nitrates 24/7 , as they are produced, water changes allow the nitrates to build up until you dilute them at WC time. They also use up other nutrients, oxygenate the water, provide shelter, security and a playground.

I'm not trying to sell you on any particular method, just laying out an option.

Go with a method you feel comfortable with. I've used the non-co2 and regular water change, no ferts method when I first started. It can work. I had some algae but not so much that I was pulling my hair out and wanting to throw everything away. But the list of plants I could grow this way became too small to keep me happy.

Keep to easy non demanding plants, with a fair amount of fast growers mixed in and lots of them.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

One very bad thing you are doing, fishless cycling.

It has no place in planted tanks ever.
If you add lots of plants from the start(your tank is moderate, you could use 2x that many), the roots have all the bacteria you need. Additionally, healthy plants use NH4 directly so that no cycling occurs to begin with.

NH4 and high light are a great way to induce green water, GW is very tough to get rid of without spending $ for UV's or Diatoim filters.

You can beat it with nutrients or anything once you have it induced.

I never once had green water till I started dosing with Jobe sticks and NH4 later.

Plant tanks are much different than plain old fish tanks.

But even a plain tank is ease to cycle and instantly add the fish, mulm from an old established tank, the dirt in the gravel can be added as well as filter sponge squeezings from a mature filter to both the substrate and the filter.

This adds precisely what is missing from the sterile substrate and this method works better than any and starts the tank off right from the very first day.

No wait, no worry, no testing.

Why people have popularized Fishless cycling is way beyond me. It's beyond common practical sense. Why wait, why test and why worry if you simply don't have to?

Mulm works with any tank type, marine, FW, brackish etc

Somehow we old timers managed to struggle by doing less work and having more success.

I would highly suggest you do several large water changes to remove the NH4, NO2.

Only add KNO3 for Nitrogen sources to a plant tank.
Fish waste will be the only other NH4 source that is added.

If you do not do the water changes and add more and then add more light....do not say I did not tell you so.
Keep the light low till things are grown in. No NO2/NH4 should ever be measured in a planted tank.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Hi Tom - thank you for that. I'm new to planted tanks (this is only my second), so I have no idea how bad fishless cycling is for them. It can be hard to get real facts from so much conflicting information on the internet; you really don't know who to believe so I just experiment.

When I set up my previous planted tank, I added the plants only towards the end of the cycling period and fortunately had no problems with it. But I can tell you that with this tank (i.e. planting from day 1, adding mulm &amp; gravel from established tank, and using a filter that's been running on established tank for almost a month), it's been a different story. So far (a week and a half into it), by adding 2mL of NH4 every 2-3 days (enough to get about 2ppm reading on Ammonia), I've noticed that after the first 3 days the NH4 level goes to 0 quite rapidly (within a day), supporting the fact that plants like them too. I do have persistent 0.5ppm NO2 reading and right now NO3 is hovering around 20ppm. The bad news is I have noticed quite a bit of what I think are black brush algae (tiny black clumps) on the leave edges of some plants (particularly the hygrophila &amp; ludwigia). Also, my plants haven't grown much at all (I don't use CO2 but have added Flourish Excel twice).

I will do water changes as you suggested and stop the NH4 addition. I'm not sure what to do about the NO2 level if it doesn't go away after the water change. Any advice on how to combat the BBA at this point? I haven't seen any SAE's locally (only flying foxes) but I'm keeping a lookout for them.

Thanks again.

-P

you really don't know who to believe so I just experiment.

Believe Mr. Barr.


Last edited by bensaf at 10-Aug-2005 09:45

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.