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The inability to "gravel" wash sand is a myth. It could easily be done and is done with the method I told you about. I'm sure Matty will attest to this with saltwater tanks as well.

As far as the eco. It can be gravel washed like any other gravel, If your not careful you will get some of the smaller grain pieces coming up through the tubing, but so what. Remember the smaller grains over time naturally make their way to the bottom of the substrate so you could certainly gravel wash a few layers without hitting the smaller grain. In 8/9 months I've never had to replace any eco because I vaccummed out too much, but if you did it's pretty simple to add some more. I only have a thin beachfront left so there's not much for me to gravel wash anyway.

My Scapes

Uh - to talk about the option of having a sand area around the Eco. What do you guys/gals think?

Why bother with the Eco at all? Just use 100% pool sand as a substrate. Then you have the look without the hassle.As tetra mentioned it's a nice grain size, big enough to work with but small enough to give that sandy appearance.

A handful of gunky substrate from one of your tanks at the bottom will give you a better bacteria start then the Eco. Or a thin layer of something like JBL, I think it's Aqua Basis I used, can't remember but still have the empty container at home. Basically it's mainly peat.

For the the look you are aiming for, with a circular beachfront, black just wouldn't work for me

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks tetratech for the update on how to vacuum Eco, it sure will come in handy.

Bensaf - You never stopp to amaze me . Now you suggest I should go with a sand only substrate? No way I am going to do that. This is the first time I heard of sand as a useful substrate to grow "stuff" - and I say stuff as the plant options (for the long term) are still open. Any setup process that I have seen from Senske and Amano (also Navarro and some others) has a divided substrate, rich for plants and sandy fronts. I have to say you took my by surprise.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If you're going with all or mostly stem plants then it may be ok to just use pool sand because they'll get ferts from the WC anyway. But for anything seriously rooted like crypts I think it's worth while to use a plant substrate.

But honestly, i can't imagine why concerns about using a gravel vac would make you use one form of substrate over another

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Back in the saddle!

It is not the vacuuming that defines the options, but the potential of a beachfront. But again, I decided on "enough is enough".

Trying to get this tank look nice is more important for now. Dual substrate is too complicated. And, besides crypts, I also think hairgrass and the like will do much better in Eco than sand.

Thanks NowherMan6,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

This is the first time I heard of sand as a useful substrate to grow "stuff"

Huh ????

The substrate in all my tanks is 100% pool sand. I don't have any problem growing anything or do I need to post a pic again to remind you ?

As for the swords/crypts needing a richer substrate. Rubbish. Anyone remember that giant sword I pulled out a while back ? That was growing in sand , never seen a root tab in it's life. Grew hairgrass just fine too.

I think you may be confusing what I mean by sand. As tetra said it's not the really fine stuff you'll find on a beach, it's more like very very small gravel but light colored, off white to cream, and the bag is labelled sand. Don't think you'd have much luck building a sandcastle with it, but it grows plant fine.

Here's a pic of the stuff I use, would make a very nice beach area and everything grows real good, personal guarantee.

Attached Image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

or do I need to post a pic again to remind you ?

Hey, I do anything to make you post a picture

Well, now I know that you don't talk about sandy sand, but really small gravel. So I see the option

But invision the final layout, or better said planting. I would like to have a large field of low plants, like hair grass. I think that its green color would come out much better on a dark substrate. What do you think?

Thanks Bensaf,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think you may be confusing what I mean by sand

That's the thing, what defines sand or gravel? They're both small rocks, but I guess when the grain size is small enough it gives the appearance of sand. Speaking of appearance the color is really a personal choice and whaqt you plant along the beach front. For example, if you look at Bensaf's pic he has java moss along some of the beachfront as do it (in my 12g). It would be lost with a black beachfront but constrasts nicely with white/off white.

In my 72g the petrified wood being reddish could work either way and the riccia is light enough to work well with the black beachfront, although a black beachfront will look darker, but I love the way it constrasts with all the green.

As far as growing plants. We all know by now that plants take most of their goodies from the water column otherwise I wouldn't even have to dose much with the eco in their. I could tell you the wisteria grows fine in th pool sand and my rotala and aromatica are growing, but I did mix in a few scoops of eco in the back of my tank on the 12g.

Since most aquatic plants will grow without even being planted I have to thing the substrate is of minimal importance, but than again tell that to the ADA soil users.

My Scapes

Thanks tetratech

Maybe from now on we should refer to really fine sand as "Nano-Gravel"

Last night I went ahead and hooked up the light, looks nice (on an empty tank). If I should not get the wood in time, then here is my plan for tonight and tomorrow:

Tonight:
- Hook up the filter and place it in position
- Set up heater and glass diffuser
(this way, I have all thing that "hang" into the tank in place)

Tomorrow:
- Go get the 5lbs CO2 bottle replaced
- Fill tank with water so the plastic containers (4 tubber ware boxes) are submersed.
- Trim the 125
- Add clippings to 40
- Fire up all units (filer, CO2, light) and stare at them for an hour

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

OK,

Plans have changed a little as the wood just arrived. I think it looks very nice and I will post a picture or two within the next few hours.

In the meantime, any last minute tips?

Also, if I don't get any CO2 tomorrow, will I be in trouble?

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,
Just for you triva collectors:

Clay particles 0.00006-0020mm
Silt particles 0.00039-0.053mm
Sand particles 0.0625-1.68mm
very fine sand 0.0625-0.105mm
fine sand 0.125-0.210mm
medium sand 0.25-0.42mm
coarse sand 0.50-.084mm
very coarse sand 1.00-1.68mm
Gravel particles 2.00- 4.00mm granules
Pebbles 4.0-16.0mm
Cobbles ~64mm

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Very impressive Frank

Now if I only would find Pool Sand and Eco in that list

Anyway, here are a few shots of the "delivery". First the pieces layed out on the dining table, with me standing on it (the wife somehow did not like that )

Attached Image:

Pieces

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Then I took them outside and hosed them down to get the gunk off them. I actually called Jeff afterwards (different reason though as he forgot to ship me the gray CO2 tubing that I ordered) and he told me that "only" hosing them down is what he does with the wood as well.

After the cleaning I arranged them briefly, not even close to Jeffs design. I guess I will have to study the picture some more.

Attached Image:

Pre-Arranged

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Each piece has some personality, but one stands out more than the others (or not, but I like this piece). I call it Sea Horse from the Black Sea (, at least today, tomorrow it may be at the bottom of the pile).

Attached Image:

Sea Horse from the Black Sea

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

And last but not least, a few goodies that have been shipped in the box. There is a 2005 ADA Catalog with products and tank pictures, and 7 issues of the Aqua Journal ranging from 1995 to 2001.

Attached Image:

Goodies

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I would like to have a large field of low plants, like hair grass. I think that its green color would come out much better on a dark substrate. What do you think?

Depends whar your plans are. If you intend open areas the light color is best. If all got ground cover black is fine.

I'll tell you one thing though. I've pretty much had it with "carpet" plants. Haven't found one I like yet. They are all too much work.

Glosso looks good but only looks good for a few weeks at a time. Once it gets thick it starts to shade itself and look raggedy. Then you have the pull the whole lot up and start again.
Harigrass is nice looking but I found it got all sorts of dirt trapped in it and it got a lot of Utricularia in between the blades which constantly had to picked out.
Chain swords try to take over.
Sags get too big a lot of times.
Haven't tried HC that might be bit less work then the others.

With the right layout and coloring I really prefer the open area look as well as not having to bother with carpet maintenance.

I think the wood you've got really lends itself to the open ground look, that's how it will look it's best. I'd play to the strenghts of the wood. Let the hardscape shine and use the plants to highlight the hardscape.

Nice on getting the books - were they free or did you order them ?

BTW.Nice result for Germany last night They looked a bit shaky in defense though, gave 2 easy goals to costa Rica. Of course all the matches are on late night here, so I'll be exhausted for a month.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Bensaf,

Most important things first: Yeah, that was a nice result yesterday, and I totally agree, the defense sucks. If they play like this against any contender then I see already the end of the German participation in the World Cup. But historically we are a tournament team that manages to get better by the game, I will keep my fingers crossed.

I think I will try to go with the substrate that I purchased. I hear you on letting the hardscape dictate the possible plant options and on taking on the dominant role of design in this tank. Since weeks I had it all planned out and now I am concerned that I am making a wrong move by selecting the Eco. On the other hand, given that this tank is not super-sized I do have the option of starting all over if it should look "not so good".

Open issues as of right now are still the lack of CO2 (will know more in about 2 hours when the welding supply store opens) and the glass top that does not fit (don't have a custom one yet). I tried to separate the AGA top on the long dark hinge but it doesn't seem to be willing to come off. I wonder if the plates are glued to it. I will have to try later today again or temporarily fold it all the way over to place it on the tank and protect the light from condensation.

Ingo

EDIT: HC seems to be really hard to come by here in the US, and its slow growth would require to purchase quite a bit of it to assure some cover in the beginning.

And the shipment goodies were for free

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If you go with the eco are you also going with a black background? Most will agree that it really makes the plants pop out and lends a more dramatic look to the tank.

******************Warning********************************
It makes you tank look darker in pics as well unless you throw a lot of light on the tank.


My Scapes

I hear you

There will be NO background on the tank. Remember that it stands in the middle of the room and as such is viewable from all sides. I am considering though to place a sheet of something behind the tank for photos. This way I can avoid the distraction of objects that are otherwise viewable behind the other side of the tank.

The open all around is actually quite a challenge. Every border is a front of the tank and filter input/uptake - heater - and CO2 are in the open and cannot be hidden in the back. If I had the spare money then I would go for the ADA tools (glass pipes etc), but currently I would rather set up a new tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Remember that it stands in the middle of the room and as such is viewable from all sides.

Oh yes, I forgot. How come you didn't consider the Hydor inline heater, It would eliminate one more thing from the back.



My Scapes

Maybe at some point I may do that, I haven't read enough about this heater to actually go out and get it. It is easy enough to retrofit the tank with the inline heater.

BTW, I bought 3 stealth heaters in my last order and two at some other point. Without having opened one of the packages (means 4 are open), 3 out of 8 suction cups are missing. That sucks (pun intended).

I just came back from the welding store and have a new 5lbs of CO2. I guess I have to get started on a long day of setup and trimming the 125.

Keep your eyes open for the soon coming 40G log and wish me luck. I am not allowed to curse while setting up the tank as the kids both are having play dates in the house. This is going to be hard.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The log has been started, please check on updates here.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club