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Hi all,

I'm looking for some suggestions on choosing a substrate that would work with Vals, Amazon Sword and Anubias. 90% of the time I usually use sand but was wondering if sand would be a helpful substrate for the plants mentionned above?

I'm in the middle of putting together my dwarf cichlid tank and am left with really this substrate question. Everything is essentially ready with driftwood, rock, plants, etc. Would also like some "cheap" lighting tips.

Almost forgot the tank parameters:
Tank: 42G (36x18x15)
Filtration: Magnum 350 w/biowheel; AquaClear 150
Decor: driftwood, rock
Fish: Dwarf cichlids

Thanks,

JazzyB

Sand would be a good substrate, and fine gravel would also work. Some of the dwarf cichlids (like the shell-dwellers) like to move rocks and shells around, anything that is on the bottom. If you are planning on breeding them, many cichlids dig pits in the substrate to put the fry in, so sand is the best choice overall.

---

And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Sand is not the best substrate for plants. I would recommend something along the lines of flourite or eco-complete. You plants will thank you!

As I'm on a budget and flourite and laterite is difficult to find in my area, is there any garden store substitute?

[span class="edited"][Edited by JazzyB 2004-08-04 09:10][/span]

Yes - you could check out Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil. It's essentially a clay (similar to kitty litter but a 'litter bit' better ). It doesn't have the iron that the other two have, but I believe it can 'hold' nutrients from the water column. Turface is the same stuff, used on baseball fields, but may be a different texture. Hardware stores may have something similar for an even lower cost. You can top it off with a layer of gravel if you want a different color. Now I know some will use peat, or garden soil, but I'm not well versed enough to tell you how that's done or if it's difficult. I imagine that it would be a mess if you have to uproot something. Clay can be messy, too, but not as much. HTH!

Hi,
Before you decide, take some time, go to the
library and read a copy of the book titled
ECOLOGY of the PLANTED AQUARIUM, by Diana Walstad.

If you cannot find a copy they are available
through Amazon Books or on EBay. In the book
Diana describes how to set up a tank using garden
soil or potting soil, no filter, no ferts, lots of
fish, and even more plants. If you have a bare tank,
and the yen to expriment, with little $$ available,
this might be the perfect opportunity.

Sand is NOT a good substrate for plants. Substrates
should be about 3-4 inches deep. Sand grains are
so tiny that they compact and can form anerobic areas
of toxic waste (dark black with hydrogen sulfide gas)
Plants cannot get their roots to grow in compacted
sand. If you must use this style of substrate then
use normal size aquarium gravel. The grain size is
large enough that it does not compact, bacteria
colonies will thrive on the surfaces, and roots
easily push through the spaces.

Keep in mind that sand, and aquarium gravel is
basicly silica. It contains nothing to aid in the
growth of plants. Plants must draw their nutrients
from the waste products of the bactera that trives
in the gravel breaking down fish waste, excess food,
and dead plant matter. The other substrates such
as flourite, onyx, laterite, etc, all furnish some
of the nutrients/elements, that plants need to
thrive.

Check out this site:

http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

It's all about the various substrates used in
aquariums.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Light_Bright recently tried a type of soil and it created a mess for her. I learn quick. Not doing the same thing.

I was thinking of having a type of substrate that would benefit the plants immediately layered beneath a top substrate of sand but not sure if that would fly. I had also thought of just buying peat and adding that beneath the sand, thus the plants could root itself to the peat and benefit from the nutrients the peat would absorb plus the pH would be lower which is what dwarf cichlids from South America prefer.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this??

JazzyB:88)

Thanks for the link Frank. It seems very in-depth. After glancing at it I came to this conclusion - tank will be up in 6-12 months. In all honesty, it looks interesting and quite detailed. I'm wondering if I have the patience to experiment with the various methods, substrates, etc. included in that article? I'll attempt to read and glean what I can from that link and put some of their suggestions to use. I'm on a tight budget so I'll choose what's "do-able". Knowledge is power.

I did no that one of the cons of sand is that anerobic bacteria can be develop and be toxic. However, I was always under the impression that if the sand substrate was stirred somewhat, i.e., gravel vac, etc. then that would prevent that build-up.

Thanks for the suggestions.

JazzyB:88)

The problem with sand on top of other substrates is that it won't stay there. Because of the fine grains, they will shift and settle over time and end up in the bottom of the tank. The alternatives would be to get a substrate with a similar color, or have a saucer set into the substrate which would contain the sand apart from the rest of the tank floor. It would look somewhat like a beach in the tank, and bottom dwellers could have some fun with it. Just don't plant anything there.

Or just go flourite, it practically lasts forever so worth the cost. Eco-complete and laterite both break down within a few years. I'd rather pay for quality and this is how to save money sometimes. (Mind you, I skimp by collecting my own driftwood, rocks, and now aquatic plants also !)

You could also mix flourite with another substrate such as small pea gravel and river rocks.

I was thinking exactly as you with the soil but I'm definately going flourite soon



The Amazon Nut...

I collect my own driftwood and rocks as well -- no need to pay for that. Thanks for the tip.

JazzyB:88)

Hi,
The use of sand as a substrate means that you will
need to vacuum it on a regular basis to prevent
the anerobic bacteria from building up. This however,
is contrary to plant growth as you are constantly
disturbing the root systems.

Placing a layer of peat under the gravel/sand will
lower your pH. But, there is no formula that will
tell you how much it will lower it. That will depend
upon the water chemistry (pH, KH) in the beginning
how much peat you use, how thick the cap layer is,
and circulation through the layers. The most
reliable, and controlable way to use peat for lowering
the pH is to put in it your filter. Then you can
expriment with how much peat, makes what difference
far more easily.
Additionally, once you bury the peat and cap it, and
then plant the tank, every time you up root a plant
the roots will drag some of the peat into the water
and cloud it.

If you opt for the layered system, and you want a
planted tank, you can purchase some laterite, and
either use it "straight" (100%) as a 1 inch layer
on the glass bottom. Then cap it with your sand or
gravel. OR you can purchase less of it, and mix it
50/50 with the gravel or sand, and put the mix on
the glass bottom, and then cap the mixture with
straight gravel or sand. Then place the peat in
the filter. Of course, again, when you uproot a
plant, you will bring the particles through the
cap layer and into the water.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks again for the tips. I'll take the advice into consideration.

if i got it right from the article, topsoil rich with iron (strong red color) and with organic matter (almost every terrestrial plant can thrive in it), just like what i have lying around in tons round here, emmits large quantities of amonia before it settles about a year from submergence. it is also great for the plants (high CEC, lots of minerals and reltively slow release due to grainsize and flow)

so my conclusions are:
1. it might be possible to cycle a new tank with soil only and without fish or additives
2. i shouldn't add any "starter" fish to uncycled tank with this kind of soil, because the amonia will make them suffer

did i figure it right?