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Bensaf, did you say no water changes?

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Not too bad is it? Dude, that is an AWESOME tank!

Well thanks again for everyones help. I actually found that part about biogenic decalcification interesting. Thanks a lot! (even if it wasn't my thread, heh)

Decent light, about 2wpg.

I'm by no means not suggesting high light no C02. Yes it can be done but it's a very fine balancing act. Not worth the hassle.

Made the point before 3wpg over a 5 gallon is nothing much.260watts over a 90 gal is a heck of a lot of light.I'd switch half it off, save on elctricity bills too.

People resist co2 for a number of reasons. Money, worry about fish, worry about cylinders and dials. It's difficult for most , even with a good system to get the right rate and flow. They are more work.More pruning,dosing, water changes etc. Too many people suggest Co2 too quickly. If you have a tank in your main room that you want to look spectacular it's fine. I wouldn't have more than 1 co2 tank going at any time - more work then I'm willing or have time to do.

Non Co2 works and works well if done properly. People like my big tank, personally I don't think it looks anywhere as good as it did when I was running non-co2. I've been tempted many times to switch the cylinder off.

This was the tank a year ago beforeCo2 was ever injected.It's not too bad.




bensaf attached this image:

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Plants need carbon as an essential building block, they use CO2 (or whatever carbon source they can get their hands on) to make carbohydrates and new tissue. I personally, do not like going above about 2 wpg (on larger tanks, NOT under about 10-20 gallons) without CO2. Here's why:

Increased lighting drives growth rate up, with increased growth comes increased uptake of nutrients, including carbon. Barring anything to do with plant physiology and chemistry, if you're looking for slower growth then having higher light isn't too sensible in my opinion. High light costs a lot of $$$, if you're going non CO2 enriched for the ease of maintenance then shelling out hundreds of dollars for fancy lighting makes no sense because it really isn't required. Why spend extra $$$ on something you don't need? Next, the idea of a non CO2 tank is usually to have an easy-to-take-care-of pretty much self sustaining system. Adding more light than you really need for the plants just means more maintenance so doesn't make sense to me either.

Now, the science stuff. STOP reading now if you don't want to know more than you need to know about plants. I am also no expert on this (I am a chem student at least but not a biologist!) but I'll try to relate what I do know.

In a CO2 deficient system, some plants will switch gears to a process known as biogenic decalcification to get carbon the only way they can. Some plants are better at this than others (Vallisneria, Egeria, etc.). In doing so, they start breaking down bicarbonate ions to make CO2 from what they have (I'll spare you all the chemical equations). They would "prefer" plain old CO2 because biogenic decalcifiction is a fairly energy intensive process, but when lighting is high and CO2 is deficient, plants will do what they need to do in order to survive and grow as quickly as possible. If you give the plants CO2, they can use this energy for more useful things....like growing. Sounds good if you're trying to limit growth, right? Not really.

When biogenic decalcification happens, the bicarbonate is broken into CO2 and carbonate. The plants use the CO2 that they needed in the first place, and leave the carbonate (CO3-2) behind. The leftover carbonate will react with any free H+ to make *more* bicarbonate (HCO3-), which will drive the pH and KH of the system upward, sometimes to extreme levels. The free carbonate will also have a tendency to react with any available ion (not just H+), the biggest one you'll actually be able to see in a tank is a reaction with Ca+2 which forms a precipitate of CaCO3 on the leaves. This can be taken as visual evidence of increased pH in the tank. So what's the problem with that? My main problem with it is that you no longer have stable water chemistry but a system with increasing pH and KH. Combine that with only doing water changes every 6 months-1 year, high lighting and a lot of growth-limited plants that are capable of biogenic decalcification and you could be looking at a pH of 9.0 or higher. Not so good. The increased pH makes the tank less hospitable to both plants and fish.

There are more problems. Your plants will suffer, you will see a difference. If plants are starved of CO2 under high light they start to show signs of carbon deficiency. Leaf size is small and stunted because the plants don't have the energy they need to grow optimally. Growth may also appear "leggy" with increased space between each leaf node. That looks bad.

Most aquarium plants are actually not true aquatic plants at all (true aquatics have evolved processes like biogenic decalcification to get carbon when the plants can't get CO2 from the atmosphere), they are bog plants that are capable of growing emersed but would usually be found in nature with at least some part of the plant growing above water and able to utilize atmospheric CO2 from the air. To compensate and help the plants grow submerged (because we're forcing them to live in a fairly unnatural state) we supplement them with dissolved gaseous CO2 that is easy for them to use. A lot of plants will do ok in low CO2 completely immersed in water but from my understanding of it, when you have a lot of light driving growth faster and increased nutrient uptake, a lack of CO2 becomes harder to cope with and the plants suffer for it. Under lower light, growth and CO2 uptake is slower anyway so CO2 deficiency isn't as big of a problem. In my experience, limiting CO2 is ok in lower light because you can maintain a balanced state in the tank without it, but as you drive lighting up it causes problems.

The biggest problem I had with high lighting and no CO2 was algae. Black brush algae specifically, you will also tend to see other types with high light and no CO2 because while the plants are unable to take advantage of the high light, the algae is fine with low CO2 and will flourish. You run yourself into a situation where conditions are favourable to algae rather than the plants, this causes problems.

Bensaf, I normally agree with you on things but.... since I have a lot of small tanks (10 gallons or less), 3 wpg on a tank less than about 10-20 gallons is actually not high light. I would consider 3 wpg on a small or nano tank to be moderate lighting, maybe even a bit on the low side. Comparable to about 2 wpg or just under on a larger tank. I usually run about 4-6 wpg (up to 8-10 wpg even ) on tanks 5 gallons and less.

To sum it up, CO2 should actually be listed as one of four macronutrients in planted tanks. Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Carbon. You wouldn't consider running a high light tank without any NO3 or K, CO2 is the same. Just as you can get away with low NO3 on a low light tank, you can get away with low CO2. Start driving growth and uptake with more light and you need to add more. It's all about balance and giving the plants what they need to thrive (isn't it always). Under high light, plants need more CO2.

A lot of beginners tend to fear CO2 in planted tanks, I'm not sure why but then I have been using it for a while. Why all the hesitation to inject CO2???

Hi,
When you "drive" plants with high light (3+wpg), you pretty
much need to add Carbon to the system or else the plants
will use up their stores and anything else they can get
a hold of that has Carbon in it, and then start to fail.

The bonds holding the CO2 together is easy for plants to
break and they thrive with it.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Bensaf...

I know this may seem a bit off topic, but is it really possible for my plants to thrive in high-light non-CO2 setups?

I was going for 260 watts in my 90 gallon with no CO2 but was told that they almost certainly need CO2... Is my situation any different than this one?


Last edited by fishnewbie at 01-Sep-2005 13:46

Thanks bensaf, you've been VERY helpful.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Bensaf, did you say no water changes?

Yep that's what I said. That bit always gets a reaction Usually shock and horror.

Why do we do water changes ? To keep Nitrates from building up and killing the fish. A planted tank and a fish only tank are two different beasts. A good amount of healthy growing plants will use up the nitrates. In a Co2 tank, depending on the method you use, we typically add a lot of nutrients to the water. The water change is just a safety valve to clear possible excess. Neither of the above scenarios apply to the non -Co2 tank. Plus tap water has a lot of stuff in it including Co2, we eliminate the water change to keep everything low and stable.This gives the plants an advantage over algae.

BUT I'm talking about putting in a good amount of plants here, not just a crypt in the corner. Plus it's not an excuse to be lazy. The filter should be kept clean and well maintained, don't overfeed, trim off and remove dead dying leaves etc. The tank should be kept clean and well maintained. Water change every few months.LOTS of plants. Decent light, about 2wpg. Very small weekly dose of ferts. Keep GH above 3.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The 55g worked fine with just a small level of co2. The algae was nowhere to be seen and the plants didn't grow fast enough they needed more trimming than once monthly. A small level of co2 can definitely work fine. I was adding a small enough amount that the ph didn't move but when the co2 was turned off the front glass became solid spot algae and when the co2 was on it all went away in less than a week. I loved that tank it was as near perfect as I could get. When I had to leave for a month I told my mom to feed the fish and that was it. No doubt she overfed them by alot but when I got back I still had 10ppm nitrates, no algae, and an extra panda cory. I'm working on repeating that with my 90g tank.
My other project is a non co2 5g with 3wpg that I plan to use for breeding my smallest gouramis. I'm waiting to get my ro system so I don't have to deal with all the junk in the water here and then ordering my plants.

NFaustman you want to watch the nitrates and do water changes to keep them low enough for the fish but once a planted tank is established often times the plants use so many nitrates you don't really need water changes. Some water changes still benefit the fish but you can go a month or some people will even go 3 months between water changes. I was still doing weekly water changes on my planted tank to encourage fish to spawn and then dosing nitrates to keep them around 10ppm for the plants. The congo tetras spawned frequently and I also had oto, panda cory, and mystery eggs several times.

I'm still in the process of putting together a 37 g freshwater tank (30 inches long). I'm very interested in using real plants, but only low light plants that will not require CO. (I have always used plastic plants).

I've got most everything in place, but need a hood and lighting. I'm a little confused about the lighting set up...from what I've read, low light plants (java fern, anubias, etc)ideally require 1 - 2 watts per gallon. So, for this 37 gallon tank, I'd need 40 to 75 Watts. Right?

Problem is, most hoods online and those I've seen locally are only single bulb hoods. And most bulbs online for the size of hood I'd need (probably 24 or 26 inch bulb) are only 20W. Therefore, I'd need at least one more bulb...or a two bulb fixture, but cannot find a hood to accomodate... How do you all have your lighting set up? As I already mentioned, I'm new to planted tanks...Can you shed some light on the situation for me. I'm sure this is all just a rookie thing.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

My attempt to run a high light no co2 tank ended with a wall of spot algae It can be done but it's a bit more difficult. Now I add a very small amount of co2. Just enough to keep the plants ahead of the algae but not enough that the tank and co2 system require much maintenance

Sham,

Good phosphate (2ppm) and Co2 will get rid of the green spot and it won't come back.

When injecting it's much better to keep constantly high or don't use at all.Yes it grows faster and is a good bit more maintenance, but this is what knocks the algae out.

You sound like a prime candidate for a non Co2 set up. You'd like it. You can grow a lot more plants and run higher light then many would have you believe. Just needs to be done properly. Very little work. No water changes and small weekly dosing. Slow growth so hardly any trimming (even for stem plants).Algae problems are very rare. You don't even have to clean the glass much.It doesn't get any easier Grown lots of different plants this way.

Give it a try you'd like it. Co2 tanks are good but they are a lot of work. One is enough. You can keep a few non co2 tanks with little effort. They can be just as good looking as the Co2 tank, given time. Growth is about 10 times slower. But when they reach that point they stay looking good for years.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

My attempt to run a high light no co2 tank ended with a wall of spot algae It can be done but it's a bit more difficult. Now I add a very small amount of co2. Just enough to keep the plants ahead of the algae but not enough that the tank and co2 system require much maintenance. I like that alot better than a tank maxed out on light and co2 so you have to trim it constantly. I also don't have any stem plants.
For the glass hood it's best if you order a perfecto hood for a perfecto tank and an all glass hood for an all glass brand tank. I've had a few perfecto glass hoods not fit on all glass tanks and so I would think the reverse is also true. My 90g perfecto top was actually too wide for my tank and overlapped the center brace.

Good stuff, Bensaf. Thanks a TON. Can't wait to see the pictures of your non-CO2 tank. Your other pictures over there look great. BTW, a Bolivian Ram for twenty cents?! Thats awesome. Not sure how that stacks up against the USD (if its converted or not), but I paid just under $10 USD for Bolivians at my LFS.

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

I wouldn't argue too much about the wpg and whether or not what level is right. It's all nonsense. Depends what kind of lights you're talking about.2 wpg of NO flourescent is moderate IMO, 2 wpg of PC lighting with decent reflectors and spread is good enough to grow pretty much anything.

I would like to keep it simple at first, but I do understand what you're saying FishMan. At what point would I need CO2? My understanding is that the low light plants like anubias, crypts and j.fern would not require any CO2 setup. But if I got others that would require more wattage, they'd also require CO2, right?

Trust me on this you neverneed CO2. It'll speed up growth sure, but can a plant, any plant survive without it ?Sure. Can you run highlight without Co2 ? Yep. Bit less room for mistakes but can be done.

It's all good. Low light/ non Co2/Co2 injected will all work. Important thing is whatever set up you choose you pick the aprropiate plants and the right method of maintaining.All are fun - in different ways.

The best bang for your buck over the long haul ? Non Co2 hands down. Growth is slow and it takes a lot longer to get the plants to where you want them, but it's very little work, very few algae issues and will stay looking the way you want it longer. Cheaper too. Just use the appropiate method.

Keep an eye on photo booth, I'll be posting pics of my non - co2 tank (as I said it takes a while to get it where you want looks wise). I'll bet you'll find it hard to believe with the plants that are in there and how lush it looks that it's not a Co2 injected tank. It took a while to grow but heck it took no work, I could wait.

Lot of light on that tank too - 3+ wpg.

Next tank will be low light. You can do a lot with Anubias, Ferns and Crypts.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks for the responses guys, they're helping me a lot.

Sham, would this hood work with the double bulb fixture in the link you posted?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3790&amp;Ntt=glass%20top&amp;Ntk=All&amp;Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&amp;Np=1&amp;N=2004&amp;Nty=1
sorry, I don't know how to activate the link...

I would like to keep it simple at first, but I do understand what you're saying FishMan. At what point would I need CO2? My understanding is that the low light plants like anubias, crypts and j.fern would not require any CO2 setup. But if I got others that would require more wattage, they'd also require CO2, right?



Last edited by NFaustman at 25-Aug-2005 09:18

"I am a believer in punctuality, though it makes me very lonely" EV Lucas

Sham, I do agree with your response.. But I'll explain why I recommend people starting out with plants to get 2wpg.

Most people that start with low-light setups, eventually get sick of low light setups, wanting to try other plants.
Eventually one of their tanks will be upgraded to higher light. Then they have to pay out money to upgrade their lighting.. My point is... Get 2wpg first.. This gives you a wider selection of plants to choose from...

Before I even knew how much light was needed for plants, I went to the store and shelled out alot of money (I thought) for a single light strip to go on my glass top. Just to find out it was not enough.. I took it back, bought a double light strip... Only to discover this only gave me 1wpg. (in an 18 inch deep tank) (and over $80. spent and 2 trips to the fishstore...) See where I'm going with this ?

I managed to convince myself I was happy with that for 2 years.. Now I switched tanks and 1.4 wpg (temporary) but a shallower tank with more light then before, plus flourite and co2.
I will have to upgrade again to get at least 2wpg.
So for all the money and driving to get my existing lights were a waste of time and money... Save yourself the trouble I did, start with 2wpg.

The Amazon Nut...

There's really no reason to avoid under 2wpg tanks. Just plant with alot of low light plants. I have a planted 20g with 1.5wpg that's doing fine. It's mostly planted in anubias and red crypt wendtii. The problem is with normal output(NO) fluorescents your only going to get 40w so barely over 1wpg which will make your low light slow growing plants seem especially slow growing. Usually I have the patience to wait while my little single plant turns into several large plants but in that case you'd probably be better off fully planting it right away.
For twin bulb NO strips try
[link=http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3800&amp;N=2004+113349]http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3800&amp;N=2004+113349" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]
[link=http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=32847;category_id=1853;pcid1=1843;pcid2=]http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=32847;category_id=1853;pcid1=1843;pcid2=" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

There are triple tube fixtures but they would cover the whole top of the tank so you would have to move them for any tank maintenance and for the price you might as well get a small compact fluorescent strip. You should easily be able to find compact strips in 24-30" with one 55w or 65w bulb. That would give you around 1.5-1.75wpg.

As a person with under 2wpg for 3 years. I'll simply say this... Avoid doing that... Shoot for 80 watts of light in the 'daylight' 6500K range.
The lighting experts can take over here, good luck !

The typical canopy you find in the LFS will not suit your needs.. A simple glass top or a custom built hood will.




The Amazon Nut...