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Something strange is happening in the Panda Fun Palace™ of late ...

First of all, latest parameters (as of 2 days ago). These are:

Ammonia : 0 ppm
Nitrite : 0 ppm
Nitrate : 12 ppm
pH : 6.8
Hardness : 10°dH

The aquarium in question receives twice weekly gravel vacs and water changes, with 50% of the water being changed (helps keep the nitrates low). Thanks to these frequent water changes, parameters tend to fluctuate only slightly from the above figures (and the 12ppm nitrates figure is usually a little lower, around 8-10 ppm).

About two weeks ago, four of my Pandas showed signs of fin and tail rot. Immediately upon seeing this, I instituted an extra water change over and above the usual, and began dosing with Myxazin, which usually deals with the matter in fairly short order. On this occasion, however, the Myxazin hasn't worked. Two of the Pandas showed more advanced symptoms after treatment than before.

I'm now using Melafix in conjunction with extra water changes (once every 2 days to make sure that the environment is extra clean).

Can anyone suggest why my well cared for Pandas were struck down like this in the first place, and why the time honoured Myxazin rememdy hasn't cured it? Usually Myxazin zaps fin rot in my aquaria in a matter of 4-5 days, and the affected fishes show signs of recovery soon afterwards, especially as I feed extra live foods to condition them during treatment. In the past, this régime has worked admirably. Why the sudden failure?

Oh, the live foods are being medicated in addition, though they shouldn't need it because they're obtained from a source with a provenance that has been known to me for around 11 years, and in all that time I've not had a bad batch.

Answers on the usual postcards please!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Poor pandas

-FCF-

Your med's not working suggests to me that it's bacterial/fungus. The problem with using one med all the time is the 'super bug'. Just like in a hospital, the more of one stain of some microbe you kill, the stronger you make the next.

My suggestion to you is to try another med. The melafix, IMO, is not going to help you. Perhaps also if this is a re-occurring problem, you need to more carefully evaluate the trigger for it. Your posted param's look good... but something is causing this to happen that you're not looking at. Stress from large water changes? Diet? Something in your substrate? Something with you water treatment? Something in the source water? Have you tested the 'fresh' water param's before you put it in the tank? What are the param's compared with the tank?

Sorry, just trying to throw some things to look at your way. Hope i've helped and not hindered

My betta has recently developed the same problem though none of the other fish have it. I looked it up in various places and the only thing I found that might have occured in my tank was a lack of oxygen. I had turned the filter right down during feeding and hadn't turned it up again. The tank is heavily planted and at night the plants can use up available oxygen. I have also begun treatment with mela-fix and am keeping the filter turned up from now on. I am not sure if this is what caused your outbreak or not.
I'll list here what I found:
Lack of O2
Lowered temp
Poor water quality
bacterial/Fungal infection
Nipping from other residents
My sources were:
The Manual of Fish Health by Dr. Chris Mathers,Adrian Exell & Dr. Neville Carrington
Tropical Fish a Complete Pet Owners Manual from Barron's and this website:
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm#Injuries
I hope any of this helps, I am pretty sure that my betta suffered from lack of O2 but I'm not sure why it only affected him, could be the CO2 was caught in the hood when he tried to take a breath, and the water was all out as well. Good luck with the pandas, hope you get it all cleared up!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

JesterFu, here's the part that's puzzling me (apart from the fact that the aquarium should be enjoying a decent standard of hygeine with twice weekly water changes and gravel vacs). The diet is varied - six different flake types (including the Tetra Pro 'crisps'), freeze dried tubifex and regular live food banquets (three different types), so variety a plenty is delivered to them on a silver platter. The live food source has a provenance that is known to me, and which has not been a known source of problems before in the 11 years I've been using it. The only other inmates are Otocinclus (which I know are not eating slime coat because they get their Otocinclus Pet Rocks™ on a regular basis) and 12 Cardinal Tetras. The Cardinals sometimes show signs of being boisterous with each other, but I've not observed them nipping the Pandas. The powerhead running the UGF develops a healthy current, so gas exchange should not be a problem, and the Pandas have a nice underwater rainforest to play in, with other decorations being bogwood that was relatively soft wood to start with. So there is something very mysterious happening here.

What makes it even more mysterious is the fact that last night, they spawned again! Usually, fishes that are suffering badly are way too debilitated to spawn, needing to devote all their energies to the battle against disease. So I've got supposedly 'diseased' fishes, yet they're still spawning. One of the most ardent males in this enterprise looks like the poster child for tail rot right now, yet was still able to take part fairly athletically in the proceedings. To use that well-worn Americanism, go figure?


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hello Calilasseia;
I'm far from an expert in these matters, but given that they felt energetic enough to spawn, is it possible that the medicine is working, but it's just taking a little longer for the outward physical symptoms to repair themselves due to increased drug resistance (as mentioned earlier)?

As for where it came from, those Cardinals are still relatively new, aren't they? I remember reading that they were in quarantine, but is there any chance they could have brought the disease in? Just a thought, like I said I'm far from an expert...

Hope all is well in the Palace soon!

Just completed another water change, major gravel vac,and redosing of Melafix.

Already, one of my male Pandas is looking for females to mate with (though he's one of the unaffected males that has intact finnage).

Here's the strange part. The Cardinals aren't affected at all. They're in pristine condition and have been since the day I bought them. Plus, they've grown apace thanks to my feeding régime.

The weirdest part about all this is that not all of the Pandas are affected. But those that are, have been hit badly by this. All except one of those appears to be on the mend, by the way, and the one I described above as the 'poster child' for tail rot appears to be growing his tail back. The extra live food probably helped this as well.

The only thing I can think of that might - and this is an extremely long-odds shot - have a bearing on this is that the tail rot problems started after I ran out of Hikari wafers. Although why this should be is beyond me ...

The weird part also is that even the badly affected Pandas haven't shown the listlessness one normally associates with disease. They're all over the place ferreting bits of food out of nooks and crannies, and indulging their usual penchant for perfect slapstick comedy timing. Mind you, the last time I saw sick Pandas looking sick was during my October wipeout, and even then only two of them looked sick - the others that died were pristine, but dead.

Yes, this one is proving to be a mystery to me. Though the Melafix seems to be working, and working well. I'll stock up on this stuff as it looks like it'll be useful in future.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Maybe this will sound strange... but have you readthe ingredients and proportions of each of the foods you use? Perhaps the Hikari is filling a gap in their nutrient's???

The mela-fix works well in conjunction with the pima-fix, it is good to have both on hand. I have also been told a salt-dip may be helpful as well, I will let you know if this works. My betta is looking a bit better after 5 days of Mela-Fix, his eyes are bright and clear, when I first noticed the tail rot his eyes were dull, almost cloudy. The tail is still ragged and seems to be slowly disintegrating still. The edges though are healthy looking, not like the pictures of tail rot that I have seen, no white stuff. Although I have noticed HIM nipping at his own tail! I will be doing a water change then dosing the mela-fix and pima-fix together.
It's funny how your pandas are feeling frisky enough to mate! In the same tank as the betta, the harlies and pandas are all thinking about it but the water conditions aren't yet right for mating. pH, KH and GH are still too high.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Jester-Fu, that's one possibility I'm considering (probably the kril meal constituent of the Hikari wafers has been beneficial to them) but given that they get live Brine Shrimp in their diet too, I don't think this should matter - not when you add up all the different foods that are administered to the inhabitants of the aquarium. Plus, if you've seen the photos of my Pandas attacking live Bloodworm, that should dispel any doubts about a healthy diet - let's see, five or six different flakes depending upon availability, regular live foods, water changes and gravel vacs that most other aquarium fishes would probably envy ... in fact right now, the Pandas are off on a 'commando sortie' over the gravel looking for titbits and behaving as if they're in perfect shape, including the ones with damaged tails. I'm due to continue the Melafix for another three days according to the dosage recommendations on the bottle, and then after the final dose has had 24 hours to strut its stuff, the bottle says administer another big water change. Thing is, that will take me to Friday, and since being told that Fridays are bad days to do water changes on (water company has a habit of dumping extra chemicals in the water on that day, and I don't want a repeat of October's debacle), I might decide that they get the water change on Thursday before the final dose, then another water change on Saturday.

I still think it's pretty odd though, that some of my Pandas came down with this (an no other fishes) in an aquarium that sees more hygeine related maintenance in a week than some aquaria see in a year ...

Oh, and this time, I made sure with the last gravel vac that EVERY last nook and cranny was seriously investigated. Sometimes the corner near the UGF uplift tube collects dirt that I can't get at, but this time I decided to go excavating deep and shift every last vestige. But for the Melafix, you could drink the water my Pandas are swimming in right now!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Double post update.

The Melafix seems to have done the trick. The worst affected Pandas are still regrowing damaged fin tissue back, but the rest are almost completely back to normal. Hopefully whatever was causing the problem has gone away - with the extra water changes and gravel vacs recently, the aquarium should be as pristine as an operating theatre!

They've now had something like six water changes in nine days, and gravel vacs accompanying all of them - there should be NOTHING in there rotting away causing any trouble now!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Great! /:'

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Awesome! I have also triumphed over the tail-rot my betta had, his tail is growing back and the pandas, harlies and otos were not affected at all. The mela-fix worked great, then to be sure it was all gone, for the next four days after the initial week-long treatment I added the pima-fix as well and that seemed to have the best effect, using the two of them together.

It's likely you'll never know why they got it, it's good to know you can treat it effectively.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus