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Hi...
One of my angel fish in my FW community tank has been a little off his food the last couple of days,which is very unusual,and today I noticed one eye is bulging out and also noticed 2 small red blotches just before the caudal penuncle.
Its a 160l tank and my parameters are :
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20ppm
ph 7.2
I was planning on a WC today.
I rang the LFS to see what they thought & they suggested to try melafix or go to the vet & get some metronidazole.
They also suggested I separate him from the others.
I have just been in the process of getting a small 10g tank to use as a hospital tank. Do I need a filter in there or maybe just transfer some water from the main tank & use an airstone ? Any help would be appreciated...
Thanks....Ash

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

The causes of popeye are bacterial when the water supersaturation of nitrogen is not the main issue. Metronidazole does have antibiotic effects but it wont be the most effective medicine for popeye. Its primarily an antiprotozoan medicine, and while protozoans can sometimes cause eyes to swell, a regular bacterial infection is more likely.

The most likely bacterial culprit will be one of the aeromonad strains, and as such ,appropriate treatments will include sulfamerazine, furan, or possibly oxytetracycline if you cant get anything else. Even simple bactericides like melafix may have an impact if the swelling is caught early enough.

As for the quarantine tank, unless you have a small filter you can immediately fill with active media from a mature tank, it would not be cycled in a useful timeframe, so oxygenation, and water from your old tank will probably have to do. In any event id put a dose of melafix in the main tank to knock down the ambient harmful bacteria a little, it shouldnt affect the filter too much.

The quarantine is actually for the sake of the other fish rather than that of the angel whos condition and stress level will probably take a turn for the worse from being moved, so in theory if the other fish you have are not especially sensitive to medicines , and you can find a filter friendly med, it might actually be advantageous to treat the angel in situ. Quarantining a fish that developed sickness while in community is often a problematic judgement to make, since unless the quarantine is cycled the health of the fish may not actually improve, and the contagion may already be present in the tank.

One solution may be to treat the main tank with melafix, and give the angel a 20 minute dip in a potassium permanganate solution for two or three consecutive days.

See what meds are available to you, then make your decision as to performing a quarantine or not. Usually popeye clears up with a load of water changes (helps drop bacterial levels, not just improves nitrate!)and some antibacterials within a couple of weeks, and its not usually outrageously contagious, so perhaps try that tack first before going all in with quarantines and antibiotics.If theres no noticeable improvement in a week reach for the more serious medications.

Thanks lhg
I might try dosing the main tank with him in there with melafix after I do a WC. I rang the local vet to see if they had any meds as the LFS here didn't ( thats what you get living in the sticks ) they didn't either ,but,their suggestion was to euthanize the fish & do a work up on the organs to see if the other fish are in any danger.
Apparently furan is no longer available in Australia.
I'll try the melafix & go from there
Thanks again ....Ash

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

I see the veterinary community still hasnt improved its general outlook to fish disease. Kill it, and then find out whats wrong with it! Rely on path reports rather than any real experience.

Mycobacterium, whirling disease or something I could understand doing that for, but for popeye? Thats just nuts!

Theyd probably charge you 45 bucks for the path report too, and odds on it would be aeromonas anyway.Just once I would like to meet a vet with some knowledge of symptomology in fish.

There is no single cause of popeye worth killing a fish over , end of. Its slow spreading, has multiple cures for any of the possible causative agents, and doesnt usually kill the fish within months if indeed it kills the fish at all. In any eventuality its 90% odds on youd be able to save your fish even without a path report or knowing exactly which bacteria or parasote is causing it with a few broad spectrum treatments, basically theres only three real ways to approach the problem , and youd probably have time to try them all.All treatments combined would be cheaper than the path report too.

Its the same round here though too, a lot of vets dont cross reference or share data, they just kill the fish , take a note or two, and dont pass anything on. Take your money and kill your fish , then usually prescribe an off the shelf remedy at 12 times the cost.

I think its known as "being inherantly crap at your job".
Youd think that with fish being the number one most kept pet in the world theyd be a bit more helpful.

I'm glad the doctor doesn't say the same thing when my kids have got a cold....
I rang a number of places to see if anybody had potassium permanganate,but,all I got was "what?" I then said "condy's crystals" & a few of the older ones at least knew what I was talking about,but,nobody had any. Would a salt bath help ? or would that be a waste of salt ?
As for meds I can get some oxytetracyclene or triple sulphur "something or other"
I'll go heavy on the water changes for a while & see what happens Thanks mate....Cheers

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Out of the choices you have Id go for a week quarantine with triple sulfa then. It should do the trick.

http://www.fishpalace.org/danscomments.html#Popeye

This article has causes and treatments of popeye.

I just checked out that link, unfortunately the advice on causes and then the actual treatments for those causes are actually not very good. The stuff on eye flukes in particular is complete rubbish, because the eye protects the flukes from the meds. The mycobacterium treatments are also complete crap. On the bacterial advice the adding antibiotics to food is crap too, because a) the fish wont eat it, and b) it will disperse into the water instantly anyway. We can do better here!

Hi Guys....
got some triple sulfa today & a small filter,so I'll tkae one of the sponges out of my community tank filter & use that in the new one.He sort of caught me half way there...had the tank but hadn't got any further.Will transfer some water from the main tank & get the temp right before I transfer him over.

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Sounds good for now, is there any chance you can post a pic of the infected eye? Theres a very good chance I can ascertain the causative agent if I can get a good look at it.

I'll try an get a pic tonight & post it

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Here is a couple of pictures
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s74/von_richtofen/Gill1.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s74/von_richtofen/Gill3.jpg

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Yeah, that looks like ajust a simple local infection of the eye to me,probably due to a minor scratch initially. The rest of the condition of the fish is good, and its not messy like the fungals are, and i doubt its protozoan. Its a job for antibiotics then.

Thanks G...
I'll let you know how he goes

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

We can do better here. Can you explain what that means? I have seen good results from people that have used those results. I guess you are one of those that think there is only one way to do everything and that`s your way.. There is no one way to do things in the world of aquaria. I`m not questioning your way of treatment but I am saying that your way is not the only way IME. Not trying to start an argument just trying to help as much as possible.

There are multiple ways of doing everything, its just that some of those methods absolutely suck.We can do better, and trying to raise the standards in treatment is a lot of what I do here. Some of us on fp have better and more thorough knowledge of fish medicine than is contained in that site, hence no need to go offsite, although obviously people are free to do so.

What I moaned about in that link is the ways that wont work or have a low success rate. Fishkeeping in general medical issues has a huge amount of improvemnent to be made, certainly I wouldnt wish to exclude treatments, unless of course, they dont work. Most hobbyists methods of treatment are positively archaic, and usually based on "chuck some of that in and hope it works" trains of thought, and I can see a lot of that in that link.

You have to be discerning about what information to take in, but if youre not from a background in animal medicine I can understand how it all sounds impressive in that link, but when you start to take it apart , its actually not very good advice. It shows some understanding of the problems, and then goes and suggests treatments, at least 50% of which dont work effectively for the recommended ailment.

There is a degree of excellence to aim for, and id never fail to chip in if I see med information that is incorrect. After all, these are lives we are talking about, the prevention of suffering and illness, its not like choosing a car colour, you have to keep striving for the most effective methods to increase the fish's chances of survival. Its nothing as casual as a "choice" .If it works, choose it, if it doesnt its hardly a choice. Often there is only one way of doing things anyway, that is of course, if you want it to work!

If you know fish biology, and a thing or two about how certain medicines actually work, inclusive of body barriers, metabolism, administration, and the practical safety aspects, and dosages etc,it quickly becomes apparent that some of the info on that site is pretty bad.Probably as a result of the internet version of "chinese whispers".

But then it does say thats its collectively sourced from casual forum entries,rather than veterinary notes or research papers, so its not entirely surprising. You never know how smart the guy is doing the editing eh?

Nobody is berating you for trying to help, and as far as med advice goes,I have seen worse,some of the stuff is ok, but its not great info. For instance teramycin, have you seen what that stuff does if you put it in an aquarium with any level of ambient bacteria or organic detritus? Its a bloody hazard, and it wont get into the eye to cure it. So its a needless and dangerous risk.

I only interject when I know something wont work.There was stuff there that wouldnt. I'm not arguing with you either, but if I didnt speak up about a fault when I saw it, and an animals life might be at stake, I wouldnt feel I was doing my bit.

Understood. But you were talking about treating with teramyacin. What it does to the tank. Hopefully someone will trteat sick and diseased fish in a QT. That should take care of your concern. Obviously you are very knowledgable about meds but I will not discount my experience that has good results. I agree that we are responsible for the well being of our tankmates and if something has worked in the future then I`ll keep on doing it no mater how much as you said "sucks" in your opinion. As I stated earlier not arguing but I`m a mod on two different fish forums and one of my pet peeves is folks thinking there is only one way to do things in the aquaria world.Thank you for all the info you provided.

Where in Aus are you Ace? If in Melbourne I know of a couple of fish vets you could get in contact with if you ever need Metro. You would need to actually have a consult with the vet though. Let me know if you want the details

Hope the fish keep improving.

---

Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Hi Lindy ...
I'm in the Barossa Valley in south australia ...
His eye is still swollen,but,some of the redness seems to have cleared. I'll give him another dose tomorrow & see what happens.
Thanks everyone for your replies

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"

Unfortunately he doesn't seem to be improving,this is the fifth day he has been in the hospital tank ( which I've treated with triple suphur tablets )
He's certainly cranky about being in the tank by himself.
Whenever I go to look at him he swims to the back of the tank & turns his back towards me.
I"m not sure whether to keep treating him, or to put him back in the main tank ?
Other than his eye he looks very healthy.

"if you're goin swimmin,watch out for the noahs"