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Sorry, this post may be a bit long, as I provide history to my main question. My 2 female Apistogramma agassizi have worms. I've had them for a couple of years now, but recently added some new fish to the tank. The new guys have no symptoms, but I can't see how else my previously healthy girls got worms, unless the new fish are carriers.

I know they have worms as I can see the swollen anus, as well as the the ends of the worms poking out. They were off their food as well.

The tank was dosed with Levamisole, covered with a blackout cloth & lights left off for 48 hours. When the lights went back on, I saw one of the two girls is a mum, with her little brood huddled around her. Swelling is as bad as ever, but they are now eating, so I gave them some food soaked in Levamisole. They ate well.

Next I will be treating with a dose of prazi (crushed tablets). I'd like to get them to eat some prazi, but find getting crushed tablets absorbed into food quite hard.

Here's where I'm Callatya pop's into this thread, as elsewhere she recommended an avarian bird wormer, which when I got home, I find I have some of the very one she recommends (Avitrol Plus). It contains both Levamisole & prazi. I've read elsewhere to avoid bird worming mixtures of Levamisole, as they contain glucose to make it more palatable to birds. Claims the glucose will cause a huge bacterial bloom & could be fatal to the fish.

But maybe the addition of glucose is only a problem if you dose the tank with it. Does anyone think it would be ok to soak some pellet food in Avitrol Plus? I'd really like to get some prazi into my girls gut?

Callatya, if you visit this thread, I'd love to hear your experiences of using Avitrol Plus, eg. what you did & how much. I probably don't have that much time to save my girls & I'd like to give it my best shot.



Cheers
TW

I have had that problem with some of my fish in the past - most likely came in on the new fish, like you memtioned. I did not have any luck getting rid of the worms and the affected fish all eventually died. I am hoping you will have better luck. A good medicine for parasites might help if you can get it into them (that was my problem). I don't know anything about the avitrol plus bird wormer. There is a medicated food that might help you if you can get you fish to eat it.

Ack, not good when they are poking out.

That was actually what drove me to hunt the shelves for something suitable. People were recommending sheep dip and cattle wormers, all of which had big instructions to avoid disposing of in waterways, so that didn't give me much confidence in the method. The best article I found was one on killies (i think it was this one) - http://inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/CamallanusTreatment.pdf - that recommended prazi and levamisole in combination, and the only OTC thing I could find was Avitrol. At the time, I considered the sugar problem but figured that the worms were far more of an immediate threat so I did it anyway. That particular fish survived the treatment but he was pretty far gone and I suspect very torn up internally given the size and quantity of the worms I got to see, so he lasted only a few months afterwards. His condition picked up well in that time though. (pic attached)

From memory, I was treating in a long term bath solution of about 3 or 4drops/L (if there are 20drops/mL) for those worms. I was working with a small tank so it was easy for me to dose that way and then change 100% of the water the following day to clear the gravel and the scum. I treated day 1, 3 and 8. Unlike the standard fish worming tablets that I'd used prior to this, he showed no physical indication that he was unhappy with the medication. I've only had 2 that had a very minor skin reaction to the treatment, but it fixed up within a day after a WC, no additional meds used.

I haven't ever used this in a large tank, only ever in small aquaria and pre-release quarantine setups, all of which are under 20gal and unfiltered or sponge filtered. I do a big (usually 90-100%) WC the following day and with visibly unaffected fish I treat days 1, 2 and 8 before they enter my systems. Outside of those parameters I'm pretty unhelpful, I've not tried it in a large setup or with a powerfilter. A friend of mine has tried it with plants and it didn't seem to cause any more issues. Primary issue is the scum that you get on the surface. The severity of this varies from setup to setup and fish to fish. I'm not sure if it is related to available food in the tank or something else, but it is a bit varied. Nothing I have treated has died in a manner or timeframe that I could say was a direct result of using this medication in this way. I haven't heard of any others going from ones that other people have treated with it. That doesn't mean that it won't, just that it hasn't happened to me yet. I'd have treated close on 70 all up I think, mainly bettas but also danios and other schoolers. Never tried with crustacea but it doesn't seem to kill snails, at least not the small multiplying varieties (bugger!)

I'm unsure of the dose rate for oral dosing. If you know one, it should just be a matter of calculating it to match the bottle. They should take it though, the bettas nip at the drops when I put them in so it shouldn't taste unpleasant.

If you want to try the crushed prazi, try powdering it and rolling the food in it. I use that method for TC (powder TC, roll pellet food in egg white, drop pellets in bag of TC dust, shake, fish out pellets, feed immediately) and it works pretty well. It shouldn't, because organic stuff should deactivate the AB, but it does. Not sure how tasty prazi is, it might just get spat back out again (tri-sulfa isn't a goer, too bitter), but it is worth a shot

I hope that is a bit of use. Whichever way you go, I have everything crossed.

If you get a cance, you might also want to check Pets Paradise. They are stocking a handful of Jungle meds, somehow selling these far more punchy drugs than we normally are able to get. I bought a furan based mix in January. I'm pretty sure that ain't legal but I'm not about to tell them that. Not sure if they have something in the range that would suit, but if you aren't comfy with this than I'd try for that range first as you are likely to get more modern/useful drug combos.

Attached Image:

Claude with his worm problem.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thanks so much for replies Two Tanks & Callatya. A bit of time has passed since my 1st post on this & things haven't improved. The levamisole I use, Big L, is a Pig & Poultry wormer - that's the one I find being specifically recommended - I haven't heard of the recommendation of sheep dip and cattle wormers, although I think Big L do make that one as well. I use Big L for dosing the water column & soaking food. Had good success with discus on this treatment, but find apisto are stubborn fish, when they get worms.

They've already had 1 dose of Big L (water column & food soaked in it). Then 2 hits of a prazi bath (separated by a week). I ended up trying the Avitrol Plus soaked food for them as well - figured with those worms hanging out - they don't have a lot of chance, so it couldn't hurt.

The are due for another hit of levamisole on Wednesday night.

There has been no improvement - worms tips can be seen & anus still swollen. They still act completly normal - but past experience with apistos & worms tells me this means nothing & they will eventually succumb, if I can't rid them of the worms.

Pets Paradise. They are stocking a handful of Jungle meds

Wow - that would be great if I could get it. (Two Tanks - in case you're wondering, the medicated food is usually illegal here in Aus, so this is a good find of Callatya's) I will ring around tomorrow, but probably can't get to one till Thursday night. Are you in Sydney - which branch did you find them in?

Whichever way you go, I have everything crossed

Thanks, me too, but I'm not all that confident - but trying hard anyway. In the meantime, these fish aren't being offered anything to eat, unless it has been soaked in levamisole or Avitrol Plus.

Cheers
TW

I found it at Chatswood, but have also seen it at Hornsby and Penrith. Haven't checked lately though, so there is a chance that someone has caught on.

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thanks. Also, forgot to thanks for the link

Cheers
TW

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm thinking of doubling the next dose of levamisole, with a water change & repeat again in 3 days. The normal rate of levamisole dosing I've been recommended is 1ml per 7Litres. The Active constituent is 14g/L Levamisole Hydrochloride).

Anyone think that this double dosing is a bad idea - given that probably nothing will save the fish at this stage anyway unless worms are eradicated & normal dosage isn't having the desired effect.

Cheers
TW

Hi Robyn:

Levamisole is considered to be a safe medication even if overdosed. This is not wisdom I gathered myself but found on a web site for killi fish enthusiasts (I think, it's been a while). They were dealing with this issue because the powder that I am using requires extreme dilution (hence the diligent 'aliquoting') and most people overdose regularly. A twofold increase is nothing compared to what users of the powdered version of this med are doing. Good luck, hope it helps!

Hi Claudia

I had just about chickened out on this double dosing plan & was about to follow Callatya's kind advice with the bird wormer dosing in the tank. I've removed the apisto girls & put them in a little QT I set up tonight. I hate doing that in itself, as whenever I remove apisto to QT - that's it, they die. Before moving them, they had a 15 min epsom salt bath (meant to be a mild laxative to help them pass worms).

I will double dose the main tank now, for sure, even though the girls are removed. But not sure now whether to attempt the bird wormer method, or not, in the small bare bottom QT



Cheers
TW

TW,

I am sorry to hear you are going through this, as am I with my female ram. It si sad to watch. Anyway, I was just wondering how the baby apistos are doing?

They didn't survive the worming treatment, sadly. I have been focusing on saving the females, but hope if they recover, that there may be more babies. One of the female is still wearing her breeding dress, even though she is unwell.

Thanks for stopping by. I hope that you have better luck with your ram. I feel I am going to lose this battle, though I won't give up.

Cheers
TW

Don't give up Robyn,

the only way to loose the battle for sure is not to fight. If memory serves right Levamisole does not kill the worms right away but paralyzes them. Subsequent bowel movements will expel the immobile parasite. Sometimes this is not happening and the fish dies of congestion due to dead worms (gross and sad!). Again, wisdom from the killi fish forum that I recall. Supposedly, exposure of worms by 'sticking out' of the anus of the poor host is sufficient to do the trick but I imagine that a higher dosage of the med will be more efficient in these cases.

It is possible that your poor girls have dead worms in their guts - maybe a mild laxative after another round of high dose L will be beneficial.

I keep my fingers crossed for you and the little girls


Claudia

Hi Claudia, no I'm not giving up - it's just that I don't feel I'll win. Decided to try Callatya's the bird wormer dosing in the tank. It's a little unfiltered 10L tank. Tonight, I removed them & gave them another epsom salt bath for 15 mins - they've had several of these now - straight after a day of treatment. It is meant to do just as you suggest, act as a mild laxative & help with expelling worms.

Did an almost 100% water change tonight (filled up again with healthy water from the discus tank) & hit them with another dose of the bird wormer. Not sure about double dosing the bird wormer, as it contains glucose, so sticking with the dose Callatya worked out (6 drops per Litre).

I think the link Callatya gave me must be the same killi fish link you talk of.

Oh well, fingers crossed.

Cheers
TW

I know it's stressing but don't give up ! I know apistos and worms aren't a good combination, but you're doing everything possible.

As a side question, any garlic in their diet ?

The Amazon Nut...

I am feeling more confident now that these girls will recover & it they do, it will be my 1st success in bring an apisto back from a health issue.

Not ready to put them back in the tank as yet (they are in a small QT) but I'm so much happier with their body shape. Before, they both had such oversized & swollen anus, with visible worms hanging out.

Here are some blurry photos of them, taken just a little while ago. They are eating well. No visible worms now. Not sure if the one on the left still has a slight raise, or not. She just might need fattening up.



Many thanks to those that gave me advice.

Cheers
TW

The girls are still in QT, but are worm free. How long should I wait before returning them to their lonely male. Worm free since a coule of days before the above picture, so since around 28 March or so.

Cheers
TW

I'd say when no signs of illness for 1-2 months.
Glad to hear things are better

The Amazon Nut...