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Ok, here is my problem...

I am mistakenly cycling my new tank with fish from an existing tank. Bad advise circumstance. Anyway, I just finished week three of the new setup and here are the parameters:

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 2ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 7.4
Temp: 75
Tank Size: 75 gallon 4' long 21 inches wide
Stock List: 1-7" ID shark, 1-7" Dojo Loach, 1-1" Black Phantom Tetra, and 1-4" Midnight Catfish
Filtration: Emperor 400

I have been doing frequent 10-20% water changes to cut down on the Nitrite levels. The Nitrite levels have been consistantly at 2ppm for over a week now.

I noticed today that my ID shark's one eye is swollen and cloudy. He is acting normal, swimming well, eating well, no other signs of illness. Is there anyway for me to tell if this is "cloudy eye" or "Pop Eye"? Is there a way to tell the difference? I have seen that if this is Pop Eye and the water levels are not ideal, frequent water changes may help get rid of it. Any ideas anyone can provide would be grately appreciated. I'd hate to lose him since he was the main reason I got the larger tank.

Should I try any type of meds?

Thanks in advance for any advise you can provide.

Could easly be a cycling problem Melafix will help to reduce some of the stress. Extra airation will help as well. I would also add some cycle or Sera Nitrivec this will build up the good bacteria quickly.

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Keith

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Well i hope it wasnt me that gave ya the bad advice LOL. Looks like you are in the end point of the second spike in Nitrites. you are almost there my friend. I wouldnt suggest water changes for a few days while you treat the little fella.

Melafix & Primafix will do the job nicely if you have caught it soon enough. If the nitrites start rising. I would suggest a water change then. Make sure you replace the meds when you do it. Also remove any CARBON from the tank or filter as it will take the meds out of the tank.

Thanks for your input as always, Shane
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Theres not a lot of difference between cloudy eye and pop eye TBH, although pop-eye can be cause by high waste levels and ammonia and nitrite spikes, when bacterial and fungal issues are concerned the eye may cloud, or swell, or both. Fish going through the cycle will also be more likely to be vulnerable to infections, so basically its impossible for the layman to determine the precise cause during a cycle unless you see some fluffy growth in addition to the swelling and clouding. Usually its both the cycle and the present contagion that are at fault, the cycle makes fish vulnerable when they might otherwise not be.

As fishmonster suggested, the best thing to do is hedge your bets, and use very moderate doses of melafix and pimafix to confront bacterial and fungal concerns without setting the cycle back as the more serious antifungal meds and antibiotics might do.

Softly, softly does it.

As you now know, cycling with fish is fraught with dangers, thats now four out of four people who have had problems cycling with fish in the last month, and I strongly suspect a new betta keeper has just narrowly avoided a problem too.

longhairedgit,

I think you have helped me before on my other post about the cycling with fish. Believe me, I never would have done it if not directed by my lfs that it was fine to put the fish from my established tank into the new tank right away. I never would have risked their lives intentionally. Believe me, it won't ever happen again!

I did a partial water change yesterday and the Nitrites are finally down to 1ppm today. Do you agree longhairedgit, that I should not do any more water changes? Other websites/articles have suggested that if the eye problem is caused by poor water conditions/cycling that you should continue to change the water regularly to try and improve the water conditions and that the eye will heal on it's own. Have you ever heard of this? I really trust your advice and just want to be sure I am doing the right thing.

Also, is this something curable or am I just delaying the inevitable? I haven't seen anything anywhere that says it is or isn't.

Your opinion is greatly appreciated and wanted. Thanks so much!

Certainly some cases of pop-eye will go down if the nitrates are reduced and the water conditions improved, but on average this is advice for long established tanks that have gotten a bit dirty and bacteria infested. I would agree that if you can prevent the worst nitrite and ammonia peaks that will be happening during the first stages of the cycle with the occassional (but not daily) water change you may help relieve stress on the fish, and consequently its condition should improve some.

Unfortunately since we cant rule out bacterial and fungal causes either at the moment , keeping nitrites and ammonia low may not be enough on their own to ensure the recovery of the eye. The ammonia and nitrite poisoning can affect a fish's immune system and this reduces resistance to infections of bacteria and fungus. Once the fish's defenses are breached and sensitive tissue like the eye becomes infected, it usually requires treatment.

So the above advice still stands, and if you want to keep doing the odd water change that is fine also.

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I forgot to mention , mainly because I was getting stomach cramps yesterday and was sick as a dog myself(gastritus sufferer , urgh ) that pop-eye is totally curable as long as its caught early enough. When the cause is nitrate irriration it can take a long time to go down though, because your waiting for the fish to stop reacting to the water quality even after its cleaned up, and with bacteria and fungi, the immune cells in the eye and the bacteria (even when dead) still rely on the fish's metabolism to move all the dead stuff out of the eye.So even when the causes of pop-eye have been eliminated the eye may stay swollen for many weeks, sometimes it may even be permanently damaged. Eye loss is not uncommon.

Its about getting to it quickly, as obviously the less damage to the eye is allowed to happen,the quicker and the more thorough the recovery.

For example both GT and myself have blue acara females with periodic hormonally induced pop-eye, and we know its gonna happen so we put a little melafix and pimafix in before real damage is done, prevent bacterial invasion, and it clears up fine, often in as little as 3-4 days. Thats what you'd call a best-case scenario. We know its gonna happen and we treat so early, recovery is almost guaranteed, both GT and myself run a spotless tank with no noticeable nitrates, and our fish are tough.

I have had a rainbowfish that recieved a bout of pop-eye from a bite, and that swelled quite badly, fungus got in, and although I treated it appropriately, it still took over a month to settle down, and the eye was scarred, the aperture of the lens was narrowed a little, but basically he can still see through it, and all is well.

Then ive also been given pufferfish with nitrate induced popeye, and its about 50/50 that they lose the eye or not,since the swelling in all cases was so vast, there was a daily risk of the eye popping, even on contact with glass. Even when the eye went down a few of them had detached retinas, and as such the eye was useless, but nevertheless they all survived. With proper treatment even if the eye is so bad it has to be lost, you can still keep the animal clean enough so that the infection spreads no further, and the eye will heal over with skin, and become an effective seal against further infection. Theres quite a few one-eyed fish in the world, in the wild it matters, but in captivity , less so, although obviously you'd always want to save the eye when you can.

Hope all that gives you some kind of perspective.

Basically pop-eye is a bit like dropsy in that its a symptom, not a single condition, and success rates in treatment depend on your ability to find the causes quickly, and treat them appropriately in the shortest possible time. Basically what fishmonster and I advocated, is hedging your bets in the safest possible way, at the earliest possible stage to give you the best chance of helping your fish recover.

The approach we take is to correct water quality, confront fungal and bacterial concerns all at the same time and that gives you the best chance of success, but there are always exceptions though, as for instance in the case of a chap recently who's angelfish managed to pick up a relatively rare bacteria known as nocardia, which meant our diagnosis was too slow to save the eye, indeed we could only tell it was nocardia when the infection became severe, since nocardia has tower-like growths, so unfortunately that fish lost the eye, but he did administer the correct meds in the end and the fish lived, which obviously , left untreated would have meant the end for the fish. He did well to catch it in time to save the fish, and we were both lucky i'd seen that bacteria before, and was able to spot it in the photos.

Sometimes its tricky, because of all the multiple potential causes, but there is always hope as long as folks react fast enough.In your case again its going to be tricky, because although bacteria and fungi may be partially at fault, and might have to be treated, until the cycle is complete the nitrite and ammonia present will still irritate the eye, and they will keep doing this incessantly until the levels all sort themselves out.

Thanks longhairedgit. I appreciate you taking the time to answer even though you were under the weather. I hope you are feeling better.

All of the information you have provided is much appreciated and helpful.

I do have one other question. If the swelling can take quite a while to go away, do I keep treating with the Melafix and Pimafix until the swelling completely goes away?

Thanks again!

Yeah just the occassional half dose or something, its just that when the eye is badly swollen , its more permeable as the cells are stretched, thus making it easier for bacteria etc to penetrate it.Using melafix and pimafix will keep the bacteria and fungus levels low during this vulnerable time.

There are no changes in the shark today, but I did notice that I now have a few planaria in the tank. Of course this is because I haven't vacuumed the tank in 4 weeks trying to grow the good bacteria. So do I just wait them out and wait for the tank to cycle or should I start doing partial vacuums on the tank every other day or so?

I'm sure there are many more than what I am seeing (hiding in the gravel).

Anyone have any ideas? Thanks everyone!