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hey guys ok well ive lost both of my clown loachs in the last like three days. im going to try and give as much info as possible but im lacking water parameters and i know thats important. ill try to get those on asap.
ok i have a 30 regular i think. i have one bridge one log and one mountain cave thing that was recently added. i have a marineland penguin 150 biowheel power filter. i had had a filter cartridge in for a little to long prior to the deaths. the deaths occured a few days after i replaced the filter cartridge. the victims were two clown loachs both about two inchs long. ive had them for maybe around four months without issue. i made a list of symptoms that they both had and compared them. fruity had rapid breathing. nervousness. he swim very quickly away when i approached which isnt normal in the least. he like really flew. and i also noticed that when he swam away that he had trouble balancing. he swam sideways and also did this kind of front flip thing. this was about a day before he died. the thing that concerned me most was that he had kind of a silver sheen on his side. kind of like a patch. he then went and hid in his cave. when i found him the next night he was very white. almost bleached of color. the next day the other clown loach whom i hadnt seen in awhile was out and about. this one showed some of the same symptoms. it had heavy breathing nervousness but not the jumpy kind like fruity had this was a "aviod everything" kind of thing. he seemed very listless. devoid of strength you might say. he also had the same silvery patches on his side. this time the lack of color appeared before death. his normally bright orange tale was almost clear. oh yeah one more thing. when i found the first loach his eye spine was extended. ok the tanks other inhabitants are two upside down catfish and one striped raphael catfish. none of the other fish have shown symptoms. however i havent seen my upside downs today so idk bout them. but my striped raphael is just peachy. listless but thats raphaels for you. ive started doing about twenty percent water changes daily. for about two days now. since the first one died. i will try to step it up to around twice daily. umm all i can think of right now. ill try to get the water parameters on asap but since i dont test regulary i wont have anything to match it against. so i wont know if its out of the ordinary. thank you in advance and im sorry to bother you guys.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

the deaths occured a few days after i replaced the filter cartridge. the victims were two clown loachs both about two inchs long.

This could be the answer also being 2ins did not help.

When you changed the filter there is a very good posibility that your tank started to do a mini cycle and I have found out that this can effect the bottom dwellers first also they are scaleless and this does not help.
If the tank is going through a mini cycle you will have to treat it and treat it very fast.

I would use as per instructions Sera Nitrivic and/or Amrite Down (this is a USA product) it must be kept in the fridge therefore it will not be on the shelves if it is DONT buy it. I also would treat with Melafix and possibly Pimafix this might seem an over kill but you have to do something very fast other wise you will loose more fish if you have not all ready.

Personally I would not change the water that often twice a week but that is me. I had a very similar incident but mine was caused by a local water supply. I lost many of my big CLs. The Amtrite seemed to be the best treatment I could get and use.
At every water change I also add a measured amount of the Sera Nitrivic. This keeps the bacteria in a good healthy state.

You did not mention if you have any live plants if not get as any as you can and float them dont worry about planting them at the moment or get some floating water sprite this will be a big help in getting the tank going again at a safe level.
Others will say this as well that tank is way to small for those loaches unless it is a temperory home as they outgrow it. At that size that can grow about 3/8ths of an inch a year but if well fed they can grow faster.

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Keith

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I think keith is right, by changing the filter cartridge you ditched beneficial bacteria and nitrite and ammonia went up. Young clown loaches can be fragile under such conditions, whereas the doradids and the upside down cats are much tougher in that respect.

When dealing with fish as fragile as clowns can sometimes be, its better not to have filters you have to change cartridges on, a simple filter with several sponges that can be rinsed in tankwater and preserve the bacteria would be better if you cant afford an external filter.

The trick is to use the same media for as long as it holds together, and just keeping squeezing it out when it gets clogged, and to have enough bits of filter media so that you dont have to change them out all at once, hence penguins with cartridges not really being suitable for sensitive species without some bacterial support, which is, lets face it , something you need never have to cough up for. I consider such cartridges to be a fundamental design flaw in a filter when they cannot be changed without significantly reducing the bacterial colony.

hey again. thanks alot guys. i panicked abit and my mind went immediatly to disease. next time something like this happens ill just have to try and stay calm. sorry your right i did forget some info. ok well i dont have any live plants in my tank. i used to but i couldnt keep them alive. i only have one plastic tank. im going to my LFS tommrow morning hopefully so ill pick up a test kit and look for the Sera Nitrivic and/or Amrite Down. i had hoped not to go back to that one because i dont like how they treat their fish but i dont see that i have any choice. if you guys are right then time is of the essence. i thought that the bulk of the bacteria was in the biowheel thingy so i never even thought of a mini cycle. ok i just went and checked my fish and they seem to be ok. one of the upside downs is acting unusally brave. that could be for a number of diffrent reasons though. i think the clown loachs antics kinda intimidated them and they're feeling abit more secure. oh yeah and the plan was to upgrade the tank when the clowns outgrew it. ok well ill try to keep you guys updated as things happen! wish me luck and thanks so so much once again

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

not plastic tank plastic plant sorry

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

Sora
In fact when we all started we made mistakes and some of us oldies that was the only way to learn no computers in those days and very little info around.
I have a small Eheim sponge filter in the Betta tank and when that is ready for replacement I will have to soak it in the tank for at least 2-3 weeks then cut up the old sponge and place a piece top and bottom to seed (boost) the new bacteria growth in the new filter sponge. As LHG mentioned it is design flaw but can be worked around with a little thought and experience.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

well im definitly glad i live in the age of computers. Sites like these that let everyone pool their knowledge are great. its good knowing how many other people share an interest in fish.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

especially guys like you and longhairedgit that take the time to help us begginers. we def. appreciate it lol

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

Stay around and join in and dont forget to ask questions there is no such thing as a silly question only the silly people who do not ask, and want to learn more about their hobby. Without FP I would not have been able to set up my Betta tank even thought I had kept fish for over 35 years.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

thanks i plan to stay for awhile this is a great site lol. ok so sorry i didnt update yesterday didnt get a chance. ok so heres the situation. i was only able to go to one store yesterday (my car was broken so i was stuck riding with my mom while she did errands and such)well the one i went to did not have what you recomended. i did manage to find melafix though and bought that. i also bought one other thing that i saw but i havent used it yet because i wanted to run it by you guys first. its called biozyme. i dont have the package on me right now but it supposedly contains dry bacteria or something and you can put some in your filter to help speed up bacteria growth. since you guys said that i probably killed off some bacteria when i changed the filter and thats what caused my problem i thought that it might help. what do you think? also the filter cartridges have activated carbon in it which i understand is not good for medications. so heres the dilema if i take the cartridge out to put in the melafix then will i kill off more bacteria? oh and yes and here are the ph levels and such. the test strip i used is like color coded so i hope i read it right.
nitrate 20 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
total hardness 300 ppm
total alkalinity 300 ppm
ph 8.4
hope that helps. sorry there wasnt an ammonia tester in the package i should have read more carefully.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

I dont see a need for melafix in this case, the clowns probably died from a severe temporary ammonia spike, their discolouration was a sign of gill damage and a lack of oxygen absorbtion which in turn affected skin cell pigments and led to the blanched out colour. Clown loaches change colour or blanche for many reasons, including reasons that have nothing to do with disease.
In any case the doradids and upside down catfish come with immune systems in a different league, so there no need to rush to kill bacteria with melafix, as its only an external treatment, and you can deal with much of that sort of problem now there are no vulnerable fish left with good maintenance. Melafix will not prevent existing fish becoming carrier fish, that would take a definite filter killing med like furan or oxytetracycline anyway. Basically using melafix at this point achieves nothing.

The spike is long gone, sometimes they only last a few hours or days, its a mini cycle, not a complete recycle.

Theres really nothing to do except think of a way of how to structure your filter media changes in a way that causes as little bacterial colony disturbance as possible. Tough though they are, no fish species really tolerates ammonia spikes forever. The idea is to keep the entire environment, filter bacteria included, as stable as possible, not just chuck antibacterials in and hope that you may be doing something right.

If you add a bacterial cycling product and then add melafix all you do is kill ambient bacteria that hasnt had a chance to stabilise, and cause more pollution that will later actually lead to a bacterial rise after they get a chance to re-establish. Then you get ammonia peaks again, and add a small amount of hydrogen sulphide from the rather more vigourous and fast growing decompositional bacteria that usually precede the beneficial nitrosoma bacteria.

The way your filter works, your primary solution to your problem is to find a way to preserve existing bacterial colonies and interfere with them as little as possible as kieth already suggested, or get a different filter, that is non-carbon reliant or has re-usable sponges that can simply be squeezed out into a little spare tankwater in a container and re-used. That way you just unclog the sponge, but it stays saturated with beneficial nitrosoma bacteria.

Other than the filter, the other thing that really needs working on , is getting that ph down a little, you have some almost blackwater fish there, and you should aim for near amazon conditions. These guys come from mucky low flow acidic river systems with a lot of organic detritus and high tannic levels. Hardness and ph of that level indicates to me either a fairly serious hardwater supply, or some limestone source in the tank that needs removing. Ever test the tapwater?

hm well nope ive never tested the tapwater before. ill get on that though. i dont know what it would be in my tank. the only decorations i have are plastic. gravel maybe? well if its the tap water then how would i go about lowering the ph? if its the gravel then it should be fairly simple to resolve. also you said near amazon conditions? whats tannic? id look it up but i really have to get off now lol. alright well ill try and test the tap water tommrow. thanks again for the help and ill try to post the results tommrow or the next day!

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

Tannins are a by product of leaching and decomposition of plant materials, from river woods to fallen leaves and washed away soil humous. They also contain hormones. Basically, even in situation where high calcite levels are in the water, raising ph and making the water hard, the incessant acidiy of tannic water often ensures that large rivers like the amazon, south american , asian, and african rivers generally stay on the slightly acid end of the scale in the lower end of their courses compared to the often quite hard high ph ranges they have at their origin. This is not to say that tannins are responsible for lowering ph entirely, in fact the usual reaction of a limestone deposit when etched by acid is to increase ph, but combine tannins with all the bacterial slime and tacky muds youll find in large rivers, and a lot of the calcite sediments and sands are sealed off from the action of some acids.

Thusly tannins and acid tend to win out, and on a literal scale , most big rivers end up closer to neutral 5.5 ph,in the 6's and 7's although in literal terms they are still more alkali than acidic. In fishkeeping acid is a relative term. Were usually talking about degrees of alkali rather than acid, but the fish that can take high alkali of 8 or more are usually mountain fish, or fish that come from the rift lakes, and those lakes are primarily floored with vast quantities of calcite sand and ground coral , leftovers from the days they were once sea floor.



Theres lots of ways to lower ph, but choosing the right one does depend where the hardness is coming from, so we can wait to see the test results before really getting into it.

The only reason I mentioned Melafix was for any remaining fish in the tank. I was mentioning it not as cure all, sorry if there was any miss understanding.
When I had the same problem (water supplier) the only way to help my other fish was use it to help reduce any further stress.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

ok well it looks like its the tap water. took it today and it was 8.4
so any ideas on what i should do now?
and ohhh i thought you meant the melafix was for any injuries the fish might have gotten when the mini cycle happend. oh well. at least i have it now if i do ever need it.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

lol i think ya'll forgot about me.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

How about keeping malawi ciclids they will love that Ph.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Gibson SG you know you want one!!

hmm a possibilty i guess. how would that go with my other fish? i added a dojo loach by the way.

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.

The rift lakes that have a similar ph and hardness to your water are inhabited not only by cichlids, but a whole range of catfish. Several synodontids you can get in the hobby included, although in a 30 gal, confine yourself to the smaller species. As for malawis and tanganyikans, youd have to be careful about choices there, lots of them are very territorial, and although the average catfish or doradid wont necessarily inspire them to fighting, breeding times will always be trouble, and one day that raphael will be able to take fish about 2 inches long.

There are of course options for dealing with high ph and hardness, including ph buffers, various absobtive pads , and all the usual peaty media choices like eheim torf, black water extracts etc. The single most effective way will be reverse osmosis filters, but they are expensive at around £100 plus for one big enough to provide filtered water for a 30 gallon. They will let you keep even the most acid loving of amazon fish though.

Theres nearly always a way to get water how you want it or need it, but its always a question of cost.

ah well territorial doesent sound good right now. ah yes one day he will i love raphaels. i cant wait till i have the money to try my main goal. breeding them. it will be awhile though lol. well the ph def. needs to go down but as you said its all a matter of cost. the reverse osmosis is def. outta the question. im going to have to try and find a cheap way to do this. being a high school student i dont exactly have oddles of money lol. if not well then i guess ill just have to find a job. now when you say peaty media do you mean added to the filter?

The true test of character is not how much we know how to do, but how we behave when we dont know what to do.