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Hello All,
One of my discus has gone down. I dont understand.
I got up this morning, fed the fish, everyone was
healthy and happy and fine, both discus came up for their
food, looking happy and healthy.
The smaller one was a little darker than usual, but often is in the morning so thought nothing of it.
I just found it when I came home, came out of the back and went flop on the gravel.
I netted into a soft net, and it appears to have torn off most of the outer shell of the left eye, and the right eye
and cloudy and lifted at the bottom.
On its left side it has a blackish mark, looks like a bruise, just to the left of the gill plate and a little above.
Im not sure if the eye injury was caused by the fish spooking and catching on something (dunno what no real sharp edges on anything ive checked and rechecked)
or if it was the yoyo loaches trying to eat the eyes thinking it was dead already.
What Should I do, or can I do, if anything?
It doesnt look good.
Its mate was goin crazy trying to prop it up and chasing
other fish away.
I have a 5g hospital/quarantine tank.
Should I attempt to treat it?
I have a slew of meds on hand.
Please help ASAP.

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That doesnt sound at all good.I certainly wouldnt put it past a loach to take the eyes of a sick animal, so that may well be it. The bruised area could actually be internal bleeding , showing as a bruise from the outside. The area you say the bruise is at could be a couple of things, possibly an organ that has ruptured, either from impact,fighting (With discus thats ALWAYS a possibility), or even just ill health like renal problems. What to do about it though is a different thing, im not sure much can be done.Only the coming days will tell you if the fish is strong enough to try antibiotics, etc, but I have a feeling this fish might not make it. Watch the other fish closely for any similar symptoms.

Best of luck anyway though.

Ty Long.
I appreciate as always your support.
I dont think its going to make it either.
Its mate is staying close to it, I have it
in a very large (16 inch) soft mesh net,
and its mate is hovering just below it.
Poor thing. I dont think its going to make
it through the night.
I have put some melafix in the tank itself,
and Im going to watch it through the night.
If it makes it to the morning, I will set up
my QT tank for it...thought I had a 5, forgotten
I also have a spare 10.
If it makes it through the night I will move it to the
10 and try treatment.
Poor thing.
At least it had a great 2 years with me, lots of
good food, and a mate it was always very close with.


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SVN,

You have had a tough run of luck. At first you had the unexplained deaths of corydoras. Now one of your discus takes a sudden dive. Both sets of deaths occurred in your 75G... I find that cory problems foretell discus problems. What are your tank parameters and how often are you doing water changes?

Another piece of information is about your discus. How large are they? How long have you had just two? Are they mated in the biblical sense (male and female) or in the Australian sense (just really good friends)? Is it possible that you have mistaken signs of support and affection from the unafflicted discus? Were those possibly indications that the larger fish was actually attacking the smaller fish? Darkness in discus is an indication of stress as are prominent display of the bars.

Your profile indicates that the fish were in a community setting. Have you recently added any fish? How many angelfish in the tank? Have any angels established pairs?

You fish listing included hypancistrus inspector. Although generally docile, it is a carnivore. Have you noticed this fish feeding on your discus slime? If it did, it would occur in the evening or lights off period and it would become ounced as the sucker mouth aged.

The net will help to prevent additional attacks on the discus. A hospital tank would be much better particularly if you increased temp to 90F and reduced the pH in the tank. Lower pH will help to prevent infection and will be therapeutic for a damaged discus. MelaFix won't hurt but I would be alert for secondary infections from the apparent injuries. High rates of water changes are beneficial. Depending upon your tap water, I may recommend a 50/50 blend of tap and DI or RO.




__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Well, she made it through the night, and is no
longer laying on her side, is now propped herself
up and is resting on her underbelly.

What are your tank parameters and how often are you doing water changes?

Tank is 75g as you know
Water tested again this morning.
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites =0
Nitrates = 15ppm
Ph is 6.7
GH Is >80ppm which it always is anyway.

Water changes are 40% Once weekly.
Filtration is a Rena XP-2 and an Eheim 2217.
Tank is well planted and lights are on 12 hours
every day.

How large are they? How long have you had just two? Are they mated in the biblical sense (male and female) or in the Australian sense (just really good friends)? Is it possible that you have mistaken signs of support and affection from the unafflicted discus? Were those possibly indications that the larger fish was actually attacking the smaller fish?

Both Discus are the same size almost exactly. They are about 7 inches in diameter, maybe 8...about the size of a dessert plate.
Yes, they are male and female and mated and spawn approx once every 3-4 weeks like clockwork.
No, there was no signs of aggression between them at all, hasnt been. They were purchased as a pair. They have been the most peaceful towards each other of all my fish. I have had them together in this tank setting for about 2 years, maybe a little more.

Your profile indicates that the fish were in a community setting. Have you recently added any fish? How many angelfish in the tank? Have any angels established pairs?

Yes its a community tank with various smaller tetras and danios, white clouds, loaches, corys, and a couple of USD Cats and a pair of Plecos (inspector and bristlenose).
There is 1 angelfish in the tank, which has been with the Discus since she was a small Angel of quarter size, she is very peaceful and hangs out with the Discus. There is the occassional pushing by the Discus of the angel, but no aggression from the Angel to the Discus. The Angel is also about 2 years old. She was born in my tank shortly before I got the Discus.

You fish listing included hypancistrus inspector. Although generally docile, it is a carnivore. Have you noticed this fish feeding on your discus slime?

I have never seen the Inspector so much as approach the Discus. It actually never leaves the floor of the tank,
unlike my Bristlenose. It is small (3 inches), and most eats the algae on the rocks and the algae wafers and zuchinni I feed it. When the Discus come to feed, it spooks and runs to its cave and hides. It is a very shy fish.
It is about 5 years old now, I have had it for about 4.5 years, since I started Fish keeping.
The Bristlenose has been with me about 3 years now, is 4 inches or so, and also, I have never seen it approach the Discus ever. It and the Inspector squabble occassionaly, the BN always loses and retreats. It too usually goes and hides when the Discus are around its favorite feeding spot...it is intimidated when both are around, but not by one.

Where would I get RO or DI water?
My tap water is well water, with a ph of 7.8 and a gh
of over 280ppm.
I treat water with 2 pounds of peat granular in the filters. Its changed every 3-4 months when PH starts to creep up, as my ph is currently 6.7, its indicating to me that the peat is nearly spent, as it usually stays at ph 6.6 I will be changing out the peat this week per my usual filter cleaning.
I have a 5g treatment tank, and a 10g I used to have a toad in...I am unsure as to the seal on the 10g, It has never held water since I bought it, and it had sand and rock and a small toad in it for a year.
The 5g is my qt tank, and is not set up, but doesnt leak
and I have a heater, sponge filter, etc, as per hospital/qt tank setup.
The discus is not so big it couldnt swim upright in the 5g ,it would be barely large enough. Would this be sufficient to treat with? Or should I test the 10g for leaks and set it up as a Hospital tank?

I am amazed that she made it through the night.
Her right eye looks a little better today, a little
less cloudy, though one bottom edge is damaged.
She can clearly see out of it still, as she is following
me with that eye.
The other eye is totally ruined. The outer lens is hanging
by a thread and the inside of the eye is visible.
I am worried of an outbreak of Fungus here.
Also, I worry that the hanging peice of eye lens will
rot and get fungussed, which may spread. Like a dead peice of skin, should I clip it off if I can?
Overall today she does look slightly better. Her color is totally black, I know not a good sign, but hanging in a net with a ruined eye, I wouldnt be too happy myself.
She is moving a little, and is breathing more normal today.
The black mark on her side has seemed to disappear, however, that could be cuz its harder to see with the coloring so dark. I have that top end of the tank shaded for her with a towel.
She is such a big fish, I do have some hope, more so than if it was a little fish. Perhaps easier to treat.
I have added no new fish to the tank in about 4 months,
I had added 6 Red Eye Tetra, which were QT before for
6 weeks, and then I sold to a friend anyway, as they were eating all my plants.
Despite the death of the two cories, have seen
no other ill fish or fish that look out of sorts,
except for a single white cloud which I lost recently,
though it was clearly to old age, as the fish was bout 4 years old, pretty old for a white cloud. They were the fish I cycled my 1st tank with, and I have 2 left of
the 12 I once had.
My camera just went into the shop as the macro wasnt focussing, but I could possibly borrow a camera in the next day or two to take some pics.
I hope this is enough info Bob, and that I have answered your questions fully.








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Ok, so I have set up the 5g tank for the
Discus. The 10g I leak tested it, it didnt fly.
So 5 will have to do.
I have it set up bare, with cycled
sponge filter to keep ammonia down.
I am just waiting now for the heater to get
it up from 78-82.
I used water from the big tank to start as its
got the right ph and everything.
Now, I have some PH decreaser liquid I usually dont
use, could I use it to prepare water for small changes
on the tank since my tap water is so hard?
Also, I noticed I am out of Maracyn 2, guess I used it
all up when I treated my female angel for swim bladder
disease earlier this year.
I do however have Jungle Bacteria Clear, which contains
Nitrofurazone and Furazolidone, and Potassium Dichromate.
I think I am going to go ahead and try this, as it works for gram negative bacterias and fungus and furunculosis.
If it doesnt work, I will go out and grab some Maracyn 2.
The discus is moving around much more now, and has started some fungus on the one eye.
I will go ahead and add 1 tsp per 5g of salt to the water
too, hopefully this will help with the fungus.
Should I do a salt dip?



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SVN,

Darkening in a discus is bad. Light stress is shown by the darkening of the stress bars. Dark discus indicates extreme stress. No surprise!

Wonderful response! Unfortunately, it doesn't help me to figure out who mugged your fish. My inclination is to believe that its mate is the culprit. It sometimes happens for no apparent reason. One of the reasons to keep the fish in a group, it defuses potential aggression.

You may be able to purchase RO or DI from your local water treatment company. Culligan and similar companies offer this service here. I visited an LFS that sold RO or DI water at $0.59 per gallon. You can also buy distilled water at your local grocery store. It should have 0 ppm of hardness. Mix with your makeup water to reach 100 ppm of hardness.

If your makeup water is 280 and distilled water is 0 ppm then use 70% distilled water and 30% makeup water to have a mix that is 84 ppm. Lowering KH through dilution will make it much easier to reduce the pH of the water. The caution will be to keep the water acidic but not substantially lower than your current level.

Clip the dangling flesh on the discus. It will die and become a haven for bacteria not to mention an irritant for you whenever you see the fish.

You do need to maintain rigorous cleanliness in the hospital tank to minimize secondary infections. Do not feed the fish. It will be fine with up to a 14 day fast from food. Uneaten food will foul the water. Fasting will also minimize waste products from the fish aiding tank maintenance. Do initial water changes of 40 or 50% per day.

My antibiotic of choice is erythromycin. It may not be available in Canada due to drug laws. Use Maracyn 2 with the salt in the water but do not add additional meds when you are using the Maracyn. The "chemical cocktail" that results from shotgunning meds may be more dangerous than the problems.

Inasmuch as you should be doing water changes. Initially dose the tank at half strength and again after each water change. It will maintain the recommended dose of the med.





__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hey Bob!
The discus is doing much better today!
She even is getting her blue back around her top
and bottom and both her pectoral fins are blue again.
She seems aware and swimming well, and the fungus on the right eye has disappeared over night. I am not sure of the left eye, she wont turn around to show me, guess she doesnt want to be left blind.
I dosed 1 tsp salt to the water, and 1 teaspoon of the
Furazolidone/Nitrofurazone Mix. It calls for 1 teaspoon every 4 days followed by a water change and repeat if needed. Should I do a water change every day of 50% and add back 1/2 a dose of the meds as you said?
If the fungus hasnt retreated, should I do a salt dip, or should I just up the salt in the tank a little?
Temp is 82, is that ok?
Its swimming and seems much more active today.
I will look for some EM (erythromycin) tabs when I am out,
I know theyre sold here. quite cheaply too I think.
If the Bacterial Clear med doesnt show improvement over the next day or two, I will swap to the other med, of course with several water changes and a break between so as not to stress the fish too much of course and to take the meds out of the water first.



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SVN,

Great news!

Do the daily 50% water change and dose at half the recommended dose (1/2 tspn). It sounds like you did the full dose (1 tspn) the first day. If so, I would dose 1/2 tspn after the first water change. If you follow the daily 50% water change regimen, the subsequent doses at 1/2 tspn keeps the meds at full strength.

I really like the concept of high water changes as this is a mature discus in a very small tank. The risk of secondary infection is very high due to the touchiness of small space with big fish and damage. In fact, I would not object to twice daily water changes if the fish did not stress.

Bump the temp. A discus at 82F in the home aquarium is at the low end of its temp range. Boost it to at least 86F if not higher. Think of the lower temp of 82F as a stress factor on your fish. Make it comfortable and toasty while it hopefully heals.



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

June 8th Update

Today, the temp in the tank is 86, as per your suggestion Bob, raised it a little at a time.
The Discus has completely regained her blue color!
The fungus on her eye fell off with the rest of the lens
last night sometime. The left eye seems mainly intact, minus the lens that was torn off. Looks like she is totally blind in that eye however, though it may be hard to tell at this time. The cornea seems to be intact.
The right eye is looking much better too, no more fungus
and the whiteness around the bottom edge is receding.
She seems to still have good vision in that eye.

So, Yesterday I did a 50% water change with the R/O/Tap
water mix, testing in at 6.4 PH and around 80ppm hardness.
I readded 1/2 tsp salt and 1/2 tsp Bacteria Clear Meds.
She is moving around more, and I will go ahead and continue this treatment as such until the injuries stabilize. I think maybe 4-5 days more of meds should do it, and then I will just keep the tank really clean and hopefully she will continue to improve.

My thought is now, if this fishes mate was the one who attacked it, when I return her to the tank, will she
be attacked again?
In the interim, perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider
adding another Discus or two?
I could shuffle some fish to make some more space if need be, a friend of mine is taking the pearl gourami off my hands, as they just dont seem to be doing very well in my tank at this time. The angelfish tends to harass them. She is coming to pick them up tomorrow.
Would adding another discus or 2 improve this situation?
A local store just opened that specialize in Discus, and they have nice 3-4 inch diameter ones for around 30.00, which seems to be a very good price. The people apparently breed most of them themselves, in several color varieties.
What do you think?

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My experience has been that a minimum of five (5) discus is necessary to minimize aggression. The addition of fish will not eliminate aggression just spread the aggression around. Please keep in mind that this is typical discus behavior. In the wild, they are in large, loose shoals of 50 or more fish.

I would add your wounded fish and at least four (4) more discus to your 75 gallon. At the same time, I would move the male/existing discus/criminal to the hospital tank for a week. I would do this because the male has staked out its territory in the 75. By removing the male, it will allow your female and the new discus to establish themselves in the 75. I would then add back the male.

At this point, he will be invading their territory and therefore be less aggressive in temperament.

Isn't it wonderful how I spend your money?

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Isn't it wonderful how I spend your money?

Well, lots of worse things to spend it on then one of the most beautiful fish out there!

Thanks Bob, you have been such a great help to me.
I really appreciate your input!

Hey, on a side note, would 2 male angelfish be ok
in a tank together? My older male has been alone since his mate died several months back due to a swim bladder injury/infection , and their son is the angel in my 75g tank. Would putting them together work, or would it be a combination for disaster?
The tank is 25g tall and the current occupants are 1 male angelfish and 1 otto, and a stone lapping barb (garra cambodgiensis).




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Most of the posters on this board would recommend against anything other than a pair of angelfish in a tank due to "aggression". I don't agree with them unless the pair are actively spawning, then they should be segregated as they defend their nest area.
Logically, angelfish are discus or they are in the same “family” of fish. Socially, they are discus. In the wild, they are in large, loose shoals of fish. In my experience, the aggression is muted or dissipated by having five or more angelfish.

In your case, the large male angelfish like your large male discus has an established territory. An intruder will be met with aggression particularly if it is another male. You can handle the situation in much the same way as your discus. Disenfranchise the dominant male to your quarantine tank, add some similar size angels and his son to the 25 then add the bull back after a week or two. The 25 may be too small for 5 adult angels…

Hey, maybe you can trade the angels for a discus?

By the way, there are a number of good hobbyist breeders in Vancouver. You may want to see if they have something available. Check SimplyDiscus.com or DAAH.com.




__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Well,
The Discus has healed all up nicely, and has returned
to her Tank.
Upon adding her back, the two discus squabbled slightly,
but within 2 hours were swimming side by side again.
The angel however, seems to think the large
of the Discus is her/his mate, and acted quite aggressively
towards the healed Discus.
So I removed the Angel for 24 hours to let the Discus settle in, and all is good now.
I will be placing the Angel in my other tank with her/his Father soon.
I think it would be better for all fish involved, better for the Discus to not be bothered by this lonely angelfish, and better for the lonely angel to have a friend of its own kind.

The boyfriend and I have had long chats, and have decided
to slowly up the number of Discus as other fish in the tank pass away as they age and make more space.
We will eventually add 4 more Discus, we will be adding 2 more soon.
We have decided to do it this way, and that way we can
splurge for the Discus that are larger, and less likely
to be harassed or picked on by the much larger fish.
What do ya think?


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It is a plan. Larger discus are less susceptible to disease and tolerate change much better than juvenile discus. Keep an eye out for "deals" outside of your LFS. You know, the hobbyist who is giving up or moving on to another species. Do check out the local fish club, you may find a breeder there who is willing to give you a special price...



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright