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hi i have a 30 litre tank with 3 black widows, a black moore and fantail and another gold fish. i had a probklem with my ammonia level which rocketed up to 4, which was countered by a low ph. i normally do a water change every week (as i have a bowl), however after finding these results i did a 10percent water change every 12 hours for around a week and when the ammonia was down to about .25 i did a 50percent change. now the levels are 0 ammonia ph6.6 and general hardness 10. i have noticed the tails of the gold fish have detieriated and are continuing to do so 2 weeks later, i have noticed the black widows take the odd nip and cant see white spots on any fish. aer the black widows eating the tails do you think- or is it the water quality?

Thats a tough call to make, it could be fin nipping, but theres also a good chance that ammonia burn damaging soft tissue has led to a route in for any one of several bacteria and fungi, and what you probably have there is a case of fungus and finrot.

30 litres is like 7 gallons. Thats not big enopugh to cope with the bioload demands of the fish you have, the goldies and moors will be pumping out more ammonia than the tetras can possible tolerate, and if the goldies are much over three inches long the tank will be heavily overstocked. The fish you have are not truly compatible in regards to water properties, temperature or saturated oxygen level. You'll get problems and keep on getting them.

Within a year to two years of age those goldies should really be getting a 40 gallon rather than a 30 litre (dude, thats like 7 gallon, for goldies?)TBH the minimum size id ever risk putting a juvenile goldfish in is about 20 gallons for humane care. Goldies are really pond and lakefish, they dont really belong in bowls or small tanks. Unless you give them more tankspace they will eventually wane and die, even the ones that are seemingly indestructible will eventually die from dwarfing and the complications of organ compression as the liver of the fish, if not the fish itself continues to grow.

The tetras will die before them, as they are a metabolically much weaker fish, and wont survive the breathing habits of a goldfish kept in indoor temperatures. These two species shouldnt really be kept together.

Odds on all your problems are started by poor water quality, your tank isnt coping ,and if you want the fish to live youll either have to give some away or get yourself a much bigger tank asap.

Youll need to treat any infections, but in a tank that size with that stocking , the results on the bacterial filter colony could be disastrous, and your fish will suffer continued recycling.Odds are, unless the housing problem is addressed, youll lose the fish eventually. You sound on the ball with water changes etc, and you obviously monitor water quality which is a good thing,but its common to underestimte tanksize, and all thewater control and management you can do will not help the fish if the tanksize is insufficient. Its a common error people make .

A stable tank is a good tank, and small tanks really dont cut it, no matter how attentive you are. Not with that stocking, its an impossible task.

Hi there,
tails detiorating is usually a condition called fin rot.
This often occurs under poor water conditions.
A couple major concerns here - black widows are schooling fish, reaching 3 inches in size and need a group of 6 or more. 6 of these fish requires a tank 20 gallons in size.
These are tropical fish - they need a heated tank of 76-80F and tropical fish food.

Black Moores grow to be 8 inches in length, fantails reach 14 inches. These fish require 30 gallons for the first goldfish, and 10 gallons per additional fish. So 3 goldfish needs a bare minimum of 50 gallons. You have them in 7 gallons.
These are cold water fish prefering temps of 72F or below.
They need special goldfish food - they can become impacted and die if fed tropical fish food. Tropical fish can slowly starve on goldfish food due to the lack of protein.

So as you see, these fish are all neither compatible with the tank you have them in, nor with each other.
My suggestion is to return every last one of them to the pet store.
For 7 gallons you should stick to a few fish that acheive a size of no more than 1.5-2 inches each.
6 Neons and a few ghost shrimp or an apple snail is enough to fully stock that tank.

If you keeep these fish in there, only one thing will happen - stunting, sickness, and then death.


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woh! so im torturing my fish? wy dont they tell you that when you buy them- the pet store helped me pick them! well i intended to get a larger tank eventually but maybe i'll have to go sooner rather then later. so what do you recomend i put in the bowl instead and what size is a good size larger tank to start with? thanks for your help by the way.

Yeah I know what you mean, many fish shops are a terrible first port of call for fish information. A lot of the time, especially in chain stores the staff are massively undereducated and have no idea whatsover of what is entailed in successful fishkeeping beyond keeping them aive for a few weeks and sold off. More insidiously many are under instructions just to make that sale no matter what they have to tell you.

You are always welcome here, we have a lot of fish gurus here who will happily answer almost any question youll need to know the amswer to. No profit angle, we do it for the love of it.


For the first starter tank for tropicals Id go for a 25-30 gallon, large as it may seem to a newbie, it has the qualities of not being too much to take on, and big enough to have stable water quality and handle a reasonable amount of fish, enabling you to have nice sized shoals of a few species, perhaps your first algae eater ,begin exprimenting with plants and a few shrimp.At that size you have a huge choice in filters, small enough for internals, and big enough for small externals. Basically if you want to get into fishkeeping a 30 gal is big enough for a little experimentation rather than having to beconfined to the tougher labyrinth fish.

As for the bowl its suitable for only 4 or 5 small fish or fish with airbreathing capabilites,like guppies, endlers, siamese fishting fish (only one!) etc.

Lemme add that anything 4-5gallons and under is i think, considered a nano tank, because of its small characteristics. Like they stated above, shrimp are the nicest starter 4 a tank of that size. Check the first page of the logs in the planted aquaria to get a feeling for what you have, and then you can make a nicely stocked tank. Just read or PM the creator of the post to find the stocking of the tanks(thats if you like it).....

Oh, and a low ph actually increases the amonia potency, and will kill almost all of your fish.

YOu learn fast, LFS are not to be trusted(most of the time). I think they should at least suggest a 10 gallon to start off with, because it is the base unit of the filters, chemicals, and many more.

based on my observations, i think you are a dedicxated fish keepa, and will become a good aquarist!

Again, WELCOME TO FP!

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cheers for the friendly welcome! have been checking ebay for larger tanks and am looking at purchasing a 190 litre tank- 40 or 50 gallons i think. i am not able to buy one right away due to finacial reasons (temporary skintness!) and am wandering if i should medicate the fish at all against finrot/fungus? its been a couple of weeks since the ammonia levels and everything were leveled to decent values and their tails are fairly ragged looking with out much sign of improvment. what do you think? i would like to nurse them back to health before i transfer them to the bigger tank if it were possible.

cheers for the help!/:'

Finrot rarely goes away on its own, i guess youll probably have to try treatment otherwise you may lose the fish anyway, but just take it easy on the doses, and TBH there should be a few formulas out there for this very common complaint that dont seriously harm the filter bacteria too much. Just be prepared to do what you can to reduce ammonia damage should the filter start to fail.

LFS are only there for 1 purpose: To Sell You Fish.
If your fish die quickly, guess what, they get to sell you MORE fish. So overstocking fish or keeping big fish in small tanks means more money for fish stores.

In A bowl, theres only 1 fish you can keep, a single male or female betta. And thats only if the bowl holds at least 1 gallon (3.78 litres). Even these fish prefer more space.

For a beginner, heres my recommendation - buy the biggest tank you have space for and can afford. The best perfect tank for a beginner would be a 55 gallon or 75 gallon tank.
However, I do not know your financial state or the size of your home, you may not have room for a 4 foot long tank.
So, my second suggestion, if you want a nice size tank thats affordable, go with a 30 or 33 gallon tank.
This size allows for a good amount of options, and is relatively affordable (often come in kits), and you can have a good amount of fish.
You would only however be able to keep a Single Goldfish in there if you wanted to keep one, and I would recommend keeping the Black Moor, as it is the smallest of your goldfish.
You would not be able to keep the black widows with it,
your only options for tank mates would be a rubbernose pleco, a pair or trio of weather (dojo) loaches, or some rosy reds or white cloud minnows (may get eaten when goldfish matures).

I think you would be better off to go with tropical fish. They are easier to care for than cold water fish.
Just need a heater.

If you got a 30 gallon tank, you could keep your Black widows, add 5 more for a school of 8.
Then you could have a couple bottom dwelling fish, maybe a nice pair of dwarf south american cichlids like bolivian rams or keyholes, you could have some catfish if those tickled your fancy instead of the cichlids, or a wide range of other options.

As Longhair said, Fin rot rarely goes away on its own. You should treat. I recommend Furan 2 for treatment. Its safe, easy to use, and works exceptionally well. Basically its the drug on the shelf that contains nitrofurazone and furazolidone. And med with those two would work well.
Kanamycin would also work well, as does Maracyn 2.



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