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Hello

My recently cycled 20G tank has the following readings:-
Ammonia: nil, nitrite: nil, pH: 7.5, KH: 3dKH, Nitrate: 20pmm. 50% water change on Sunday, just prior to buying the new fish. Temp in this tank is about 28 - 29 degrees C.

I don't think a water change will help, as previously I conducted an experiment on my Tap water (treated with water conditioner / ager) and my water straight from the tap had a reading of Nitrate: 30 ppm


Late on Sunday afternoon I brought home 8 harlequin rasboras. They are quite small, being only a maximum of 1 inch, including tail. I acclimatised them properly. Monday when I came home from work, 2 of them were dead. The remaining 6 fed well & I hoped that would be the end of it. I came home tonight, and again, two more are dead.

Do you know why this is happening and what I can do to try and help the survival of the remainder?

Cheers
TW

Just checked the tank, and I have lost another one. It does not seem that I am going to be able to save these fish. I don't know what is happening.

Edit The survivors just ate enthusiastically a meal of bloodworms - but then again, they fed well yesterday too.

Cheers
TW

After just feeding well, & swimming around looking good. The remaining 3 have now slowed down. They are sort of swimming in place, like they are marking time. Tails & fins moving, but fish not moving forward or backward. I don't think this is good. I think I'm watching them die, I don't know what to do

Cheers
TW

That sucks, i think the only things left are oxygenation, photoshock, thermic shock, or maybe theres an ammonia spike since theyve been in? Perhaps a toxin in the water supply or the environment near the tank like air fresheners or fly killers? If you cant nail down a source of toxin it might be worth performing a major water change anyway, perhaps with rainwater or bottled water? Do you use dechlorinators or balancers like tetrabalance? Failing that theres always disease, are they swimming mostly head down at all? Are there any unusual physical symptoms at all?

Oh well. You might get your money back if the shop have a guarantee.

I have an air stone in the tank. The tests were all done tonight and the results were: Ammonia: nil, nitrite: nil, pH: 7.5, KH: 3dKH, Nitrate: 20pmm. I'm not sure a water change will help. About 2 weeks ago, I conducted a little experiment. I tested my water straight from the tap and the Nitrate was 30pmm. Yesterday I did a 50% water change, a couple of hours prior to the new fish moving in. Yes, I used a water ager that deals with chlorine, chloramine & ammonia. I haven't used any air fresheners or fly killers.

Are there any unusual physical symptoms at all?

Earlier tonight the remaining 3 were swimming around normally, but then they started sort of swimming in place (fins & tails moving jerkily, but fish not moving forward). To me, it looked like they were trying to swim forward, but failing. I'm new to this hobby, and I thought that didn't look normal. But I've just checked the tank again & they are now swimming again -so perhaps they were resting? I don't feel confident though, considering that 5 out of 8 have died since around 5pm Sunday (Sydney time). It's now 1.41am on Wednesday morning.

I don't think there's anything I can do now, so I'm going to go to bed & hope they're ok in the morning.

Cheers
TW

Tankwatcher,

Harley rasboras are usually very hardy, so it must be something very unusual that's harming them.

But first thing's first. The "unusual" behavior you describe, swimming in place with fins jerking, is quite normal. This is how they are at rest: either at night when in sleeping mode or right after a big meal. They just hover in one place, perfectly normal. Other times they'll school loosley, not across the whole tank, just around certain parts. Other times they'll go end to end - all three types are normal.

Since you say there were no outward signs of disease my one question is this: your LFS, does it run UV sterilizers on their tanks? If so, this could be the problem. (stress COULD) Being held in a UV tank for a long while, it may be that their immune systems weakened since they never had to deal with any bacteria or other nasties in the water column (since these all were killed by the UV) When taken out of that environment and put into yours, it would have been a shock for their immune systems, as they would be unable to handle the things that a healthy fish's immune system would be able to handle.

As I said, this is all speculation, but check with your LFS and see how they maintain their tanks.

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Back in the saddle!

Indeed, it could be something as simple as the differing water quality, even if yours are correct for the species, if its not what theyre used to , shock can ensue. If theirs is off, definately get your money back.

They are still ok this morning, so I hope when I get home they will be ok.

swimming in place with fins jerking, is quite normal. This is how they are at rest: either at night when in sleeping mode or right after a big meal

That makes sense, because only shortly before they had greedily eaten a meal of frozen bloodworm. It was also night. I'll check with LFS about UV sterilizers, as I have no idea. I previously bought 4 platys and 4 guppies from this LFS (they were older specimens than the rasboras) and they are all fine. They're in a different tank. The rasboras are on their own. The guppies had been in that tank, but when I got the rasboras, I transferred guppys to the big tank as I'm using the smaller tank as a quarantine tank for new fish while I'm stocking the big one. I'd say the largest rasbora was an inch, head to tail, and some were/are even smaller.

I'm going email LFS and tell him what happened & see what he says. I let you know if I get a response. Thanks for the advice.

Cheers
TW

yeah, definetely post an update. I'm always curious to see how these types of things turn out.

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Back in the saddle!

Well I've been lucky and no more have died - still left with 3, but they must be lonely as I know they like to be in a school of at least 6 or 7.

LFS did not answer the query re UV sterilizer, but asked me to come in with a sample of my water. He tested it and I know he was hoping for a fault, but the only thing he could find to say was that my pH of 7.5 was slightly high. To demonstrate this, he tested his own pH - which turned out to be exactly the same as mine. Then he told me that harlequin rasboras are very fragile fish and only live about a year anyway. This didn't gel with what people here at FP told me. Several people have told me they are usually quite hardy. To prove their short life span of a year or less, he did a google search on the web for harlequin rasboras lifespan, which returned various sites, mostly saying they live 4yrs, 5yrs & above. He told me several times that fish do not come with a guarantee, but agreed to to credit my store account with a refund for the 5 dead rasboras. He made me feel like he was doing me a huge favour and I sensed a definite unspoken warning that never again would a credit be given for dead fish. I'm disappointed with this attitude. I have bought 2 tanks from him, my guppies, platys, substrate, C02, rocks and many other things & he knows this. This LFS sets every customer up with a customer number. When you make any purchase, everything is recorded on your account. This can be convenient for the customer, as he promotes that you don't need to keep your receipt for any equipment guarantees, as he has it all on record should it be required. It also shows him that I wasn't a fly-by night customer unlikely to return, but someone who if given good service, would give him lots of return business. I would have thought it was in has favour to look after customers who have given him repeated return business.

I can see the sense of no guarantee, if I'd had the fish a week before the 1st death, and/or if my water tests had been bad. Even if only 2 fish had died, I wouldn't have even mentioned this to him. But the 1st 2 deaths were within 24hrs since purchase and before 48hrs had passed, 5 had died. Plus he admitted that my water was fine (even the pH, though he considered it on the high side, but still ok & identical to his own.) He made me feel he was doing me a favour by giving me credit (not a refund mind you, but a credit with his store). But surely, it is only fair to refund in these circumstances. He is going to ring me & let me know if can source some slightly older (therefore slightly more stable) rasboras. I think though, I'd prefer to buy my rasboras elsewhere & I might just use up my credit on water agers etc. He gave me the credit, I know, and I guess I should be grateful and I would have been, if he'd handled this gracefully. But he firstly tried every way to point the blame at me. Then suggested I should buy a $20 DVD he has made himself on the proper care of tropical fish, again seeming to point the blame on me. Quizzed me on how I do things - (eg how do I wash my filter media - I'm sure that was a trap, waiting for me to say I use untreated tap water). If he'd been nicer about this, he would have had my business for a while to come (as I understand that it's possible just to get a bad bunch of fish) but when my credit is up - I don't think I'll ever go back.

Cheers
TW

TW,

That's pretty rotten about your LFS. A good owner should know how valuable return customers are. What a jerk.

but the only thing he could find to say was that my pH of 7.5 was slightly high

Rubbish, that's not high at all.

Then he told me that harlequin rasboras are very fragile fish and only live about a year anyway

It's clear he was trying to blame you for the fish loss. Pretty chincy of him to be so reluctant to refund the cost of 5 harlies. They're not exactly the most expensive fish in the world...

But anyway, good luck with the remaining harlies, and definetely get them some friends. You may have just bought from a poor stock - somewhere else may give you better luck.

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Back in the saddle!

I know, we were only talking about a credit of $17.50. To me, it was more the principle of the situation, rather than it being a huge amount of money. Pretty silly of him to lose a customer over such a small amount. I'm still stocking my 43.G and haven't even started stocking my 2nd tank yet, as I'm using it as a quarantine tank until the 1st one is stocked. Those fish will come from somewhere else now. I'm glad you don't think I was being a bit tough, by being disappointed in his attitude.

Cheers
TW

There are certain pieces of legislation that guarantee consumer rights. Technically most places are obliged to accept returns of defective or damaged goods ( read terminally ill or spoiled fish) unless they state clearly the conditions of sale are "sold as seen". If in doubt consult your local version of the citizens advice bureau or similar who should be happy to look into it free of charge.Its not unusual for a whole host of shops to trade under business conditions and contracts that are illegal and contrary to local guidelines, and they can be quickly made to tow the line once authorities are notified.

The advice the petshop has given you is clearly verging on the bloody dreadful, the ph is fine, and most fish live well beyond a year and that includes your rasboras. If it was a killie or something I could understand it.Personally id swear at him a lot, and tell him what a particular part of a horses anatomy he was to his face, but thats the confidence of years I guess. Im sure a few of the senior members of this site would be happy to lend their weight to the fact that the petshop idiot was talking rubbish , and then perhaps a printout of this forum and show it to his manager? In one sense I can understand that they see all manner of nutters returning fish for various reasons from blender accidents to running the fish over with a car, and that that jades their sunny disposition, but clearly there was a deficiency of knowledge on their part and that is always a worry.


ps. Buy the fish elsewhere next time.Even if they do suck up to you, if thats the attitude of the average assistant I dread to think what happens behind the shop front.

Unfortunately, he is the owner - so no-one higher up to complain to. Maybe when I have finally used up my $17 store credit, I may mention to him that if handled differently, he would have had a return customer stocking 2 tanks, but business will be given elsewhere now. The thing is, I'm not a very confrontational person, so it's more likely I'll just slip away quietly and leave him in peace.

I can understand that they see all manner of nutters returning fish for various reasons from blender accidents to running the fish over with a car

Shock, horror - I can't even begin to imagine how you can have an "accident" with a fish in blender - or run them over with a car. Serious, Serious Nutters must be involved.

BTW, another bit of info his staff gave me on the day of my purchase of the rasboras, which I didn't think was right at the time, but I assumed he knew more than me. He told that me the Harlequin Rasboras are Tetras. Is that right?

Cheers
TW

Rasboras are definitely NOT tetras.

Anyways, sorry to hear about your LFS experience, but I've come across similar attitude here in Brisbane too. I've only found one LFS here who would guarantee the quality of their fish (as in giving your money back or replacing dead fish). The rest has this "too bad it's not our fault" attitude when it comes to dead fish. I just have to rely on myself (as in taking my time before buying fish, making sure the same fish has been in the LFS for a while, etc.) rather than take their words.

-P

upikabu, just as I thought - Not a tetra.

I'll try to pick fish your way from now on - but I don't think that I'd be able to pick 1 rasbora from another, so how to tell which ones have been there at LFS for a while, and which ones are new stock !!! I'll do my best. It will be harder with the pandas and ottos. I have never found these in stock anywhere & I think I'll have to order them in especially when I'm ready for them.

Cheers
TW

Fish in a blender accident - watch Deuce Bigolow , Ace Giggolo, and all will become clear. Its a legendary movie anyway, with such gems as a lionfish with malawi bloat, a killer mandarin koi, and the breakage of a marine tank that is every fishkeepers worst nightmare. The retrieving of a "goldfish" from a toilet is great too

I have to try the trick with the snails sometime before I die.

Robyn,

Harlequin Rasboras are Tetras

Well - next time you go there (if ever) ask them if they have Harlequin Tetras, maybe they are in a better shape .

Upikabo answered that question and there is not even a second opinion needed (from me), I can only shake my head at such an (fill in the curse word here) sales person. Makes me feel like we should spread the word so others are not shopping there anymore either. Wouldn't it be cool if there would be some form of website that works like the Bureau for Better Business (might be a US thing only), just for LFSs?

Sorry, I didn't even see this thread until now,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

how to tell which ones have been there at LFS for a while, and which ones are new stock

I just observe the overall group in the tank over several weeks. If they are healthy, they should look healthy (active, showing good colours and growing). Of course this means weekly trip to the LFS without buying anything and they may look at you funny, but who cares.

BTW, I was at one LFS last weekend and the cardinal stock seems to be vastly better than last year. I know you're not considering them anymore, but just FYI.

-P

Thanks upikabu & LF (& everyone else)

Well, another one died. It is so sad & puzzling. They seemed fine in the morning, but another death by the time I got home. The guppies, who previously were in that same tank, did so well.

The Harlequin must be kept in large schools of at least 6 or 7 if it is to survive

This quote is taken from FP profile. I feel so sorry for my survivors . On the one hand, I'd like to rush out & buy them tank mates because of this profile comment - on the other hand, the sensible advice is to find a store with a stock of them and observe for a few weeks - maybe purchasing them on the 3rd weekly visit. Ahhhh - what to do???

I'm finding it hard to track down some older specimens here anyway - so there are none to go & observe. Most LFS I've rung either have none in stock (but will order in) or they're under an inch. I'll be more confident to buy them when they're bigger & proved they can survive.

In fact, everything on my stock list seems hard to get. No-one has ottos (only CAE), no one has panda's. Probably they only thing I can get easily are the bolivian rams - but guess where they are. I'm not buying fish from there again.

Cheers
TW