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Last week one of my yellow labs died from something unknown... its only symptons appeared to be a red anus and some red vein like marks on its body which i thought might be malawi bloat..
Now my other lab has something (possible a parasite) extruding from its anus.. its looks like a red mass with small peachy coloured bubbles growing from the mass...

55g tank with 3 peacock cichlids (+8 fry) 2 yellow top mbamas and a bn...

parameters:
ph 8
nitrate 0
Kh 4 dH
General hardness 8 dH
ammonia 1
nitrate 25ppm

this was the best pic i could get
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f306/daniellewatkins/DSC00493.jpg

any ideas????

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

Oh hell, that sounds like camallanus,unless its a prolapse, can you post a pic?

can you see it on the one attached?

ill try and take a better one,. its hard! i dont think he will make it though

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

sorry buit the one above is the best i could do... i hope you tell from that. i have it in an isolation tank with a small airstone but its gasping from air ,is bloated and i noticed a white film forming over his eyes....

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

ok from what ive read on the net i think you're right longhairedgit it sounds like camallanus.. eeks!

how do i treat this successfully and considering everything i read i guess i have to treat that whole tank.. it has a few month old fry and a bn.. so anything i use needs to be safe on these..

also i share my gravel cleaner and buckets between my 55g and 20g tanks.. do i need to treat both tanks??

why me!!!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

Yeah the picture does help some, I missed it earlier, its a little fuzzy for detail , so I cant be sure , but I reckon it limits us to the following three possibilities.


Camallanus are typically gastrointestinal roundworms, and the usual wormers used at relatively high concentration should have an effect. Praziquantel and levamisol should kill them, but the trick is having the dosage high enough to kill the worms and not kill the fish. The typical reason people fail to kill these worms and have the fish eventually succumb to them is they tend to underdose. This genera has many variants also, and it may take the usage of more than one type of drug to kill them.


They are typically introduced with a mid -stage parasitic host , which is primarily copepods, or crustaceans- (owners of shrimp beware!) and the worm finishes its lfe cycle in the fish, often killing it as numbers begin to rise and the size of the worm increases. They can cause prolapses, ruptured intestines and stomach cavities, and they are not above moving to other tissues in the later stages of infection, meaning that sometimes completely systemic rather than purely gastrointestinal drugs may need to be used.
Obviously conventional wormers will not destroy copepods or shimp in the tank, and neither will it rid them of the mid stage instar of the worm. This is the reason reinfection is very likely indeed. Using anti-crustacean parasite meds in combo with the wormers will kill the cycle of the worm off completely, but any shrimp in the tank you have will be history.Obviously to kill copepods and crustacean parasites under these circumstances will take something water soluble, ingested anti-crustacean antiparisitics will have no effect.If you have a UV cleaner unit, time to use it, it will kill copepods and small free swimming crustaceans en masse. It might be worth buying one if you dont have one, but they are expensive pieces of kit.


Another worm commonly confused with camallanus are the worms of the various Eustrongylides species , these worms are if anything redder than camallnus and like them can usually cause abdominal bloating and migrate freely around the body, although their preference is to stay in the gastrointestinal tract. Treatment is the same as camallanus, except that considerations have to be made for the differing method of transmission (usually ingested eggs or neonates that live in the tissues of tubifex worms used for feeding to the fish), consequently a good tank cleanout is required, and the usage of live or non-irradiated tubifex is to be avoided.

There is only one drug that will completely annihilate these worms and any of the secondary vectors that cause repeated transmission, and that is Ivermectin (trade name ivomec). Its usage comes with a but. A BIG BUT. It kills absolutely anything. Roundworm family,tapes, flukes, pinworm, ticks, fleas, crustaceans,molluscs, lice,copepods, the lot. Dead as toast. But it will kill some fish too. It also renders fish largely inedible as a result of some byproduct toxins in the internal organs, so much so in fact , in many areas where it was used in salmon and trout farms it was banned as it made them unfit for human consumption, and it killed off most of the microscopic fauna in the lakes in which the fish were kept, obviously harming the ecosystem, but then it was originally designed for use in pigs and cattle, so what do you expect? lol. Therefore using it to treat feeder fish generally sucks as an idea.

If youre losing the battle you may want to consider it, but if your fish have no barriers to the brain (some species dont) and we certainly dont have a list of compatible species on this ,Ivomec , for lack of a better phrase will effectively melt their brains. It even kills cats and sheepdogs . Use it only if you must, and if the fish die, dont say I didnt tell you! Id does however have the advantage of being dirt cheap and easily obtained. Ironically it probably wont effect the filter, it wont kill bacteria, but itll kill almost any organism much more complicated than that.

If its a prolapse you could get a vet to try and reinsert it or stitch it back in, but prolapse is a bad injury for a fish,its a tricky area to heal, and the muscles that keep the anus in position will often atrophy quickly, sometimes within a day, and that means no amount of reinsertions will help. The smaller the fish is, generally the worse the odds of repair and recovery are, but hey, give it a go.

Cancers are common in anal and ventral tissues, e as the are to cellular damage, infection, and erroneous cell regrowth, but theres not really anything you can do about that. Cancers can cause secondary infections and septacaemia especially around the anus and that could cause raised veins, swelling through constipation etc, but theres very little you can do about that either except throw antibiotics at it and buy the fish some more time, which personally I would consider pointless. In cases of mass cancer breakout, there is only one real causative agent outside of water toxins (illegal pollutants) and that cause is papilloma viruses. They cause cancer as they force cells to make errors in cell replication, they are usually ingested from cysts and cells consumed from prey fish or by fin-nipping behavior. Easy to identify because of the characteristic furry black, almost rosette-like growths on the skin ( hence the name) , sometimes followed by large tumours. Once caught there is no cure, although the victim may live for years. Obviously it should be segregated from fish that are unaffected as quickly as possible, and for life.


ps If it is camallanus, they are transmitted by copepods,which are usually microscopic , although marine specimens can be pea -sized, so yes treat every tank youve used the same equipment on or put unwashed hands in, they get about. Bleach the hell out of any shared equipment, and try to keep them seperate from now on, wash your hands after every immersion in tank water, with nice hot water and a little disenfectant.
I dont think, "safe" treatments really have an effect on this little monster, I think you'll lose what you lose, and losing some is better than losing them all, If you have the spare tankspace you can try quarantines, its possible some might escape harm, but its still a lottery. I wouldnt wish these little scumbags on my worst enemy, Im so sorry. I HATE parasites.

I think thats most things covered.

Good luck.

wow thanks for that information! for someone who hates parasites you sure know your stuff!!!

well from that info and what ive read on the net im pretty certain im dealing with camallanus

my lfs is getn some flukon?? in for me as he said that will treat it appparently there has been a big run on it and both my lfs are sold out (im blaming sydney water at this point!!!!) is it possible this parasite could have been introduced in the water as i havent added anything to the tank for quite a while

when bleaching the equipment do you just use normal household bleach? and then rinse it alot ?

thank you for all your help and knowledge on this!! dont know what i would do without it!!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

he's a genius huh? saved me quite a few times..

*Chelle*
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I love the fishes cuz they're SOOO delicious...

lol .. there are so many ppl on this site with indepth knowledge on so many things which is why its a great place to start when problems arise!
especially scary and gross looking problems like the one i have at the moment!!

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

[qoute]*Refer to product label for specific ingredients. Follow label instructions carefully. Product selection varies per store. Carefully remove affected area with a razor blade and treat tissue with mercurochrome. Add medication containing formalin to water.[/qoute]

i pulled that from the website
www.petsmart.com
it followed info after diagnosing camallanus and what to treat it with

is the above a good idea?? i didnt think it sounded like something you should do....

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

Er no, THAT DEFINITELY SOUNDS LIKE A BAD IDEA. Since area infected is the entire gastrointestinal tract, what are they expecting you to do- disembowel the fish? As much as beheading the little suckers that are sticking out of his bum appeals to me, generally injuring worms causes an almost immediate release of eggs! Fair enough if the fish is already in quarantine and you want the worms to retreat from blocking the ventral opening, but even then I dont really see the advantage, since chopping small bits of worms rarely kills them. Pulling them out could lead to intestinal damage the fish may never recover from, the trick is to poison them, and their bodies tend to break down quickly , as their bodily structures are simple, and the fish should just be able to vent them as it would its usual excreta.

They may be hinting that the way to treat the fish is to damage the skin integrity ever so slightly to ensure the fish gets the treatment through skin absorbtion, but that sounds like a hell of a risk to take with stressing the fish and causing a fungal infection. Yours already sounds from the misting of the eye etc that it may have a borderline fungal infection, an injury like that could only worsen it. If you must follow that advice, do the scrape on the upperdorsal surface of the fish or the base of the tail where youre least likely to hit an organ,use something that will give you a degree of control better than a razorblade like a clean surgical or craft scalpel, and for christs sake , dont miss!

Maybe whipping the fish out of the water and smearing the meds on his bum and the callamnus parts that are visible will do the trick. He will probably have some anal damage near where the camallanus are anyway so if you wanted a vector for the treatment to go in, there it is. Their advice makes it sounds as if you have to descale the fish like you were preparing to put it inder the grill with some garlic butter and a slice of lemon. I wonder how many people have killed a guppie by trying to scrape the fish with a razor so far... they might have at least stipulated that youll only need to remove a scale or two at the most. I can see people popping scaleless fish with advice like that. It makes me wonder if anyone at petsmart has seen them , let alone treated them, and if this isnt some incredibly bad misdiagnosis on their part. I find it hard to believe that a med that cant even penetrate the mucus layer on a fish would kill a camallanus infection. Worms do have their own mucus layers. I cant imagine a situation in which id choose a med that required me to " scrape " a fish over one that didnt, if there was a choice.

I suspect the recommended procedure is for helping to get the treatment to skin flukes that might be buried in the dermis of the fish, sometimes those little flukes do get quite wedged in there.Even then id rather prize the little sucker out with a sterilised needle or suck it out with the precise use of an insulin needle, and even then you really have to know what your doing! I sure this doesnt apply to treating camallanus.

Like i said before, if you can get a systemic treatment (one that treats all bodyparts) it might be a better idea.A water soluble drug would be ideal.If this is a contact only drug, its not gonna save the fish, those little swines get to tissues other than just surface ones, and that might even be right into muscle tissue and other organs. If it were me id probably bribe a farmer to get me a few drops of injectable liquid ivomec, cut it with pure filtered and boiled water or surgical saline and dilute it at about 25 drops to one of standard solution concentration and put a drop on the fish, hold it for a few seconds above water and maybe rub it in (even put a drop on the camallanus if I was feeling particularly vindictive,) making sure to avoid the gills eyes and mouth, and drop it back in the tank quick. I might kill the fish, but id definitely kill those damn worms. Anyone whos failed with camallanus will know where im coming from there. Depending where you live though, that might actually be illegal , so check into that before you do it, im not recommending any one break the law here. You could always suggest a vet do it I guess, they can get away with murder The administration might be not be illegal, its not an invasive procedure, but procuring the drug outside of a vet might be. Depends on your countries laws.



On the bleach thing, id probably have a 3% bleach solution in a bucket, and leave gravel washers etc in it, and rinse em and dry em really well when I want to use em. Do rinse them well though, and keep the bucket some distance from the tanks, even vapour from non ionic surfectants like bleach can be lethal to fish. I dont suppose it really matters how you bleach the stuff, whether you wash em in the sink with it , rinse them at least twice then and wipe them down afterwards,just dont get the bleach near the fish. Bleach kills bugs with its insanely alkali ph, so make sure theres a minute or two contact time with whatever youre washing. When there are disease outbreaks like this one i've often used bleach to wash my hands with, but your dermatologist would probably tell you NOT to do that. In professional circumstances they tend to use alcohol rubs and trigene detergents, but hell, im a rubber skinned cheapskate , and bleach works for me


I think "petsmart advice is to be ritually avoided" will be my tagline if I ever go premie.

yeah i didnt think cutting into the fish would be such a great idea and i dont consider myself the best person to perform surgery! i cant even stand the sight of blood !

update on the situation

i lost my yellow lab he didnt make it he was in a pretty bad way when i could finally get my hands on some tablets. The bulge had grown fungus and it was all downhill from there! i added a dose of the dissolved prazinquental to the isolation tank which appaered to have slight effect. Parts of the fungas and other whitish bits did fall off leaving a cleaner looking bulge bit but that was about all before he passed.

i added prazinquental tablets to the tank which apparently is meant to kill these things. it didnt have much of an effect on my lab as i think he was way too gone to save

i have treated the tank with just less than the given dose as i have a bn and fry in there... and my peacock could be pregnant so i dont want to risk overdosing the tank.

The instructions say to leave the tank for 48 hours before doing a water change and filter medium change and redose after 7 days just to be sure.

im currently bleaching all the buckets and equipment used to make sure this doesnt spread through equipment use.

Im keeping a very watchful eye on the tank looking for any signs on any of the remainding fish!

If anyone can think of anything else please let me know!

thanks again for all your help longhairedgit/:'

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

How is it going , did you manage to kill the worms? Camellanus are a swine to get rid of after all.

If it is camellanus you are treating I have heard of people using Drontal dog wormer for it. This was recommended by Aquarium Industries (aussie fish wholesaler)

1 drontal tab (for 10kg dog)
Mix to 100gm food & a little cod liver oil. Feed this food to tank for 7 days.

I know it sounds odd to use a non fish medication but most of what is available here to treat fish is lolly water. Bird wormers with praziquantel are good also but I dont remember the dosage. I believe Callatya was the one that put me onto bird wormers, give her a PM if you need dosage details.

Good luck, From what i've heard these worms are tough to get rid of.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

thanks for your help but i couldnt save the infected fish.. i had it in isolation but the part hanging out got fungus and while the meds i used .. prazinquental got rid of the fungus it didnt do much else..

as you said lindy the meds available is oz are lolly water! there arent many i have used successfully and if you overdose slightly to make it work it ends up killing the fish and that is about all.

We should have access to better meds that are available overseas.. maybe we should start a petition ??

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Truth doesn't always win friends but it influences them

Just keep an eye on the remaining fish. Hopefully none of the others are infected. Sorry you couldnt save the fish.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.