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Hi,

I'm having a few different problems with my cories in 2 tanks, so please excuse the long post.

Tank 1 (see my profile for stocking)
Parameters: Ammonia & Nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 10ppm, Temp 25C, pH 7.6 (unchanged from tap), weekly 25% water change. The tank has been running 5 months, last addition was 1.5 months ago. I feed sparingly twice a day with flakes, shrimp pellets & Hikari wafers for cories, and frozen brine shrimp/daphia/bloodworms 3 days a week. The only loss so far was a black neon 3 months ago, a week after its addition.

Problem 1: This past weekend I noticed that one of my cory Paleatus has darkened considerably over the other 2 Paleatus and his body has thinned out (the front half of his body is noticeably bigger than the back half). But since he was acting normally, I didn't think much of it. Last night, I noticed him being very lethargic on the bottom or resting on a leaf while the other cories were off chasing their foods. Definitely very different behavior. Well, this morning he seemed much worse - clamped fins, lying against a plant. I think he's dying, not sure of what. I don't have a quarantine tank set up, so I moved him to a container with some tank water and dosed it with Melafix. I'm praying for him, but it doesn't look good. Some pics of him last night:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/dying_cory2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/dying_cory1.jpg

Problem 2: I also noticed last night that the other 2 paleatus now have some reddish (somewhat sore-looking) spots on the top of their heads, and my Trils also have 2-3 small, reddish spots underneath their skins (on top, near their gills and tail), but they don't look like the sores in the paleatus (more like smudge spots under their skin, see http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v58/witje/Fish/cory_spots.jpg). I'm not sure if they got this from the dying paleatus since that one one doesn't have any reddish spots anywhere (just the dark color and emaciated look). Plus the other cories look and behave normally (active and eating well). Do you think they have some internal parasites or something? Any advice on what to do? I dosed the entire tank with Melafix this morning, but I'm really scared that I might lose all the cories in this tank (after just 3 months of cory keeping). All my other non-bottom-dwelling fishes look fine.

Side note: I have a bag of Seachem Purigen in my canister filter. Any idea if this will affect the Melafix treatment (instruction only say to take out carbon)? I couldn't find anything about it on the Seachem website.

Tank 2 (see my profile for stocking)
Parameters: Ammonia & Nitrite 0ppm, nitrate 5ppm, Temp 25C, pH 7.6 (unchanged from tap), weekly 30% water change. The tank has been running 1 month, last addition was Saturday (the 2 gouramis). Cories were added 2 weeks ago. Same feeding regimen as Tank 1, except using mini version of food.

Problem 3: Last Saturday I added 2 sparkling gouramis to this tank right after a water change. The next morning, I found a cory Hastatus dead & stuck on the opening of the filter intake. Since all the other Hastatus look ok, I thought it was just an accident (he got himself stuck there). But 2 days later (ie. this morning), I found another Hastatus dead, stuck on the filter opening. Coincidence? I doubt it. Perhaps they died first (again, not sure of what) and then got sucked into the filter (since they're very tiny, ~1cm). I checked the parameters again this morning and only the nitrite has gone up slightly (0.1ppm), presumably b/c of the dead fish. I'm going to do a water change tonight, but not sure what else to do (or if the deaths were preventable). Should I dose this tank with Melafix also?

Anyways, I'm just really bummed at the moment. :#( I've kept fish for a while (though no bottom feeders until the cories) and never had so many problems/unexplainable losses around the same time. Could it be something in the tap water? (Come to think of it, these all started after my last water change.) I'm scared of getting more cories now (my 3rd tank is cycling).

Thanks for listening to my ramble.

Last edited by upikabu at 01-Aug-2005 22:00

Last edited by upikabu at 02-Aug-2005 06:26

-P

I followed the Disease Identification in this site.. I recommend to try it.. It points to skin flukes or trichodina but you'll be able to id it better as you know the symptoms.. Also have heard of red patches being connected to septicimia. The shrunken belly DOES point to an internal parasite but red spots external. Whenever a disease hit my tank it was always after adding new fish, prob the case here. I doubt it's your water. The nitrite could have been the dead fish or a mini-cycle by adding new fish, prob the latter.. If your tank is small and packed with fish this could easily be the case. Not sure your tank size and stocking.

Once you have id'd the disease follow the recommended treatment or post in here, someone more knowledgable (quite the few in here) will step in and assist you further. I just noticed 2 days no response so had to offer some positive suggestion to you.

I'm not familiar with Purigen but if it basically does the same thing as charcoal I'd remove it while treating with Melafix.. Melafix seems to be the wrong med in this case but is beneficial in times of fish stress so may benefit somehow in the meantime.
Hope your corys get better !

Last edited by DaFishMan at 03-Aug-2005 16:14

The Amazon Nut...

It definitely sounds parasitic to me. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with medications available in your area. Hopefully someone closer to you will pipe up with some good recommendations, the best I can do is suggest calling your local fish shop and asking them what they suggest. You are looking for something that will treat internal AND external parasites. If they don't have anything, I do have generic treatment names that should be available from a veterinarian.

Thanks for the advices. I didn't know about the Disease ID on this site, so thanks for pointing that out. I had thought it was septicemia just from what I was able to research off the Net, but the disease ID says it could be skin flukes. So septicemia is internal bacterial infection and skin flukes are internal parasites?

The cories with red patches under their skin and the one with sunken belly (who BTW died yesterday :#( ) are in my larger (150L/42g) tank. I haven't added fish there in almost 2 months, so it's not introduction of new fish. I had treated the tank for 2 days with Melafix, then yesterday the LFS told me to try Pimafix, so last night I did a 25% water change, took out the Purigen from my filter, and added Pimafix. But if the problem is indeed flukes/parasitic, Pimafix/Melafix wouldn't help, is that correct? A couple of meds I've seen in Australia for parasites is Aqua Master Para-Cide and Waterlife Sterazin. Has anyone in Oz had experience with either product?

-P

TANK 1

I would be hesitant to call that septicaemia. It just doesn't look like it in the pic to me. Septicaemia usually starts around the base of the fins and looks really blood red and streaky, it can start on the body but it just doesn't look like septicaemia streaks to me. IME septicaemia will look like bright red streaks of blood, REALLY obvious, not subtle at all like that. To be honest it doesn't look like skin flukes to me either! Skin flukes are an external parasite, you'd know if that was it because they would all be scratching and flicking themselves in an effort to get them off. They almost look like wounds or ammonia burns (possibly related to poisoning issue below? are the tanks in the same room?), but you said you don't have any ammonia in there. At this point just because it would be so hard to figure out what is causing those spots, I would say continue treatment with the melafix and hope that they don't get worse, if they do get worse or spread, post some more pics.

The paleatus that passed on looks like a case of intestinal flagellates to me, wasting slowly and passing on suddenly would indicate that. With bacterial issues IME they tend to go off food and waste that way, with parasites they seem to eat a ton and never put any weight on. Flagellates are extremely common in fish you purchase from a pet shop, many fish can go on for months with them. There is a chance the other fish have contracted them but I'm not sure I would treat right away. Watch for white or transparent stringy feces in the others, if you see any you will know for sure that parasites are the problem and can treat accordingly.

Sterazin is for internal parasites, you'd be looking for something like octozin if you see signs of intestinal parasites in the others.

TANK 3

Did you see anything external on the fish that died? Or notice any unusual behaviour at all before it happened?

Sudden completely unexplained deaths like that tend to point to a poisoning issue. Were you using any cleaners around the tank before it happened? Chemicals, perfumes, I've even seen a poisoning from deoderant spray. I recently had a poisoning issue that I found out was caused by ammonia in my tap water. Also what kind of decorations do you have?

I would do some large water changes, small corydoras are especially sensitive to chemicals so I would not put poisoning past them.

Hope that helps..... I know it is frustrating watching your fish die and being completely stumped.

Tristianity: first of all, thanks for your help & concern! I really appreciate it. And yes, these past few days have been very frustrating, especially since I just restarted the hobby a few months ago.

To answer your questions, Tank 1 & Tank 2 are in different rooms. When I tested the ammonia on both tanks earlier this week, both came out at 0ppm. Whether or not it's other chemical poisoning, I can't be 100% sure, but I'm very careful about washing my hands & rinsing well before handling fish food or putting my hands in the tanks. I also don't use chemicals around the tank. I suppose it might be possible that something may have come in from the air (Tank 2 is not completely covered) - maybe the noxious fumes from my wife's cooking?

The 2 Hastatus that died didn't show anything obvious externally. It's hard to say about prior unusual behaviors since they are 9 other Hastatus in the tank, and they're so tiny (1cm) and not all are visible at the same time (either hiding in plants, behind driftwood/rock, etc.). I haven't had any more death in that tank for the past 2 days, so I'm crossing my fingers that it stays that way. I'll do a water change tonight nonetheless.

As for the big tank with the mysterious spots (the corys don't flick around or scratch themselves against objects BTW), I'll probably continue with the Pimafix for 2 more days and then do another water change with more gravel vacuum, and see if they get any better. One question though, I've seen some posts here mentioning using both Pimafix & Melafix at the same time. The LFS I talked to said better to use one or the other. If you do use them together, do you use full strength of each, or half/half or alternate days?

Thanks again.

Last edited by upikabu at 04-Aug-2005 01:01

-P

Just on the possible introduction of something to the water that may of caused poisoning to the fish...

Your flag indicates you are in Aus like me. At this time of year, as the weather starts to warm up, many of the water companies around the country (if not all) add extra chlorine/chloramine to the water to combat algae. Have a sniff of your tap water. Its quite noticable from the tap if this is what is going on.
At a guess I would think you are adding dechlorinator to your tap water when doing water changes, yes? I double dose the dechlorinator as chloramine requires a higher dose to break it down.


If you find any of the Waterlife meds for sale anywhere I suggest you buy them as they are no longer being imported here because active ingredients are required by law on the bottles which Waterlife wont provide.

As far as I know melafix and pimafix are safe to use together but i'm not sure at what dosage. Maybe half/half would be best until someone can tell you different.

I really hope you find the cause of your cory deaths.

---

Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Lindi - thanks for the tips about the Oz tap water (I use Prime, but I'll double dose next time) and Waterlife meds. Which Waterlife meds do you recommend particularly?

BTW, I just got the Corydoras book by Werner Seuss today (awesome book!), and on page 14 under "Treatment of sick animals" the author said the following:
"In my experiences to date, no cure exists when Corydoras have red patches, spots or lines on their bodies. I am unsure how this illness is caused but it is most probably a bacterial infection, which is transferred from Corydoras caught in the wild.
As this infection is contagious, it is imperative that the infected individuals are removed from the tank to reduce the risk of further infection and possible deaths of fish."

:#(

-P

You can try treatment with antibiotics if you want, it's hard to say without a real diagnosis. The choice is yours, in this case it's not certain that antibiotics would help and remember that they can affect your biological filter but on the other hand it may be worth a try. I'm not sure what meds are available there but if you do decide to treat them with antibiotics look for something broad spectrum that will treat gram negative AND positive bacteria.....something like kanamycin, nitrofurantoin, or a combination of erythromycin and minocycline (maracyn and maracyn 2).

I probably wouldn't treat just because it isn't clear what you are dealing with, but again it's up to you. Personally i think removing all of the fish with any spots on them is a bit drastic too.... I would leave them and observe very carefully to see if you can learn more about what is affecting them. Watch very carefully for any changes in their condition, keep water quality very good and hope for the best. If anything changes you will be better prepared next time.

Melafix and Pimafix work very well when combined, you can fully dose both of them with no worries. I have never had any problems with it.

Have you noticed any stringy white or transparent feces in the tanks? Sounds gross but it's important to check out.

I did ask one LFS about antibiotics but they said they can't sell them here in Australia (although they said they have some under the counter ). They told me the only thing they have close to it is Myxazin from Waterlife. I'm still on the fence whether or not to try it (not sure about plunking down $20+ for something that may not even work). So far (after 2 days of Melafix, a water change, and 2 days of Pimafix) the other corys are still acting normally and eating well (but reddish spots haven't disappeared). I think I will continue with both combined after another dose of Pimafix tonight and another water change, and see what happens.

No, I haven't seen any stringy white feces in the tank yet but I'll keep an eye for them.

Thanks again for the help!

-P

An update and some more questions.

Problem 2/Tank 1: After 1 day of Melafix, 3 days of Pimafix, and 2 days of Pimafix/Melafix combo treatment (with a water change in between each change), I *think* the reddish patches got a bit fainter in the beginning, but haven't noticed any changes in the last 3 days. The corys are still acting & eating normally. I'm wondering if I should just stop the treatment and wait, or continue the Pimafix/Melafix for 2 more days (to recommended 7 day treatment for Pimafix).

Also, even though the Melafix & Pimafix bottles say they don't harm the cycling bacteria, I noticed my water is turning cloudier daily which IME is bacterial bloom. I had luck adding bacterial additive (Seachem Stability) to get rid of previous clody water, but I'm wondering if I should wait until I finish the treatment. Has anyone found Melafix/Pimafix to cause cloudy water?

Problem 3/Tank 2: I thought the problem had gone away since I didn't have any more death since I first posted. I did a 40% water change on Saturday (with double dose of dechlorinator as Lindy suggested) and this morning (2 days later) I saw another dead Hastatus stuck on the filter opening! I'm starting to suspect that these Hastatus might be just too curious for their own nature and gotten themselves stuck on the filter. So frustrating!

-P