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just out of curiosity... I know they are reputed to be sort of difficult to keep, sort of touchy... I had 4, 2 died for sure, one I can find still living and the other one, who knows?

I am curious what might cause an oto to suddenly not be alive any longer? The params are fine,the temp stays between 78-82F. The Tiger Barbs tankmates are great, everyone co habitates nicely. I just onwder what could have caused the death of the two otos for sure...

I lost some of mine '3" with a sudden spike and I thought I lost them all then all of a sudden they reappeared. At the moment I have three(in Betta tank only) and when one comes out the three are out.

Hard to look after I don't think so it is a matter of getting healthy ones to start of with and you have a heavily planted tank and also plenty of algae for them. At the moment one is eating of a rock, another a Anubias Nana leaf and the other on the DW. I never give them any special food/s

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Keith

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My personal theory on ottos is that they have a high metabolism and prefer to graze algaes of a particular age and length.In my tanks, ottos who are among the strongest and healthiest always seem to take algae that is primarily standard green, primarily from broad leaved plants, and of no more than a week old. They take no other supplemental foods by choice, although the weaker specimens often do, out of necessity.

The proper provision of this algae takes a huge amount of surfaces for a consistant growth of young, fresh, green algae. The otto is a small fish and as such has a limited intestinal length, meaning processing older algae with a longer , firmer, silicate structure is more difficult for them than it is for say a bristlenose plecostomus, a species that can be an eating machine, capable of deriving at least some nutriment from algal colonies of almost any age.

Ottos do not show much in the way of direct competition particularly as regards aggression, but its not unusual for the biggest, fittest otto to dominate the best feeding area, and as such , over the months in a smallish tank you may find only one or two out of a particular group survive. Ottos are e to both overfeeding and underfeeding and cannot go much longer than two days without food, and gut impaction from eating tougher , less digestible algae is also possible.

Ottos will try to make do with cucumbers, and various squashes, but long term that has ramifications with gastrointestinal health, and this means subsistance feeding them isnt always easy.

Thanks to the small size and method of feeding they also pick up metals and medication toxins from the surfaces they graze, and its very easy for an otto to reach a high level of personal toxicity, and under such curcumstances they often die of toxicity complications , like damage to the liver and kidneys.

Ottos I have kept over the years do much better if kept in a tank so large that the algae doesnt run out, but also they do better where such algaes are kept fresh and not allowed to mature into old dark mats by other hardier algae eaters like plecs and sae's. While it may superficially seem counterproductive to keep ottos with larger algae eaters, it can actually have some benefit, as the bigger browsers clear new spaces for fresh algae, only a few days old to establish, and then the ottos browse on their optimum diet. Also I find they work well with amano shrimp, the amanos are generally much less picky about the algaes they eat, much like the plecs, often clearing the algaes the ottos wont eat, therefore freeing up plant and bogwood surfaces for new growth. Obviously this takes tankspace to achieve.

It probably helps if you think of it in terms of crop rotation! lol. Its almost like giving cows and horses fresh lush grass, then using sheep and goats to take the browse level down, eat all the tough stuff, and then letting it grow again so the cows and horses can have another go. In a large aquarium twith multiple species of algae eater this is a constant process with the fish using different surfaces in rotation, those with smaller plecs, ottos, and shrimp, will notice them , over the weeks moving to and resting near different areas of surface from plants to rocks and wood. They are quite literally rotating territories to take advantage of the types of available food, and often depending on what degree they appreciate algae, aufwuchs, and infusoria, through to lignin and organic detritus in their diet, and their ability to pass excess cellulose and silicates.

So in shorthand, and given enough space, its entirely possible to maintain a colony of "algae eating" fish that help each other maintain their diet, on the proviso of course, that you dont overstock and completely run out of algaes.

It is perhaps this need to rotate species, areas and food types that can contribute to a truly successful feeding community containing ottocinclus, and its when you combine this need for dietary accuracy with the aforementioned water quality sensitivity that keith touched upon that you get your answer as to why ottocinclus die-off is as common as it is.

In short, you can keep ottos in smallish spaces, but in doing so you must keep a rigorous control on water quality, and make sure the internal surface area of the tank is kept high with many broad leaves plants , rocks, and bogwood areas, therefore facilitating maximum growth of small fresh algaes that the ottos find easy to digest. "pet rocks" etc will also help, but with ottos , remember that while algae wafers and cucumber are nice occassional top-ups for lean times, its real new algae that they want, and that is what they should be getting.

In a balanced tank of around 30 gallon or so, youll find that a pair of ottos will occupy the major niche of new algae, unless your occassionally cleaning back woods, plants, and stones in rotation and allowing new algae to grow. In a tank your size id stick with your remaining ottos without adding more, but perhaps try a couple of fully adult amano shrimp instead, just to ensure that they occassionally browse back tougher algaes and give the ottos a chance to feed on new growth. Even the back panel and corners of the aquarium you often hope the ottos will clear for you ,should be manually cleaned once in a while if it becomes colonised with harder algaes.


Fact is, that a lot of algae eaters in nature are niche consumers, and that niche can be periodic, and based on the browsing activities of other species.Ottos are one of those species that benefit from a clearing of older algae by larger species.They exploit the newly cleaned area within about a week or two of its original clearance for the appearance of new food, and then move on when it becomes choked up with less edible algae types, and then other species move back in.

A lot of fishkeepers are prepared for basic herbivore, predator, and scavenger interaction, but perhaps less prepared for the concept of a feeding heirachy amongst the algae eater, wood eater, and micropredator groups.

Basically when you have large,well maintained, planted tanks like keith, countryfish, ingo, and myself for example, who have multiple species of algae eater, this sort of thing takes care of itself, a natural cycle of browsing activity establishes itself, even the acceptance and usage of supplementary foods becomes better balanced, and you can have entire small shoals of ottos happily doing their thing and helping to keep the plants and surfaces clean , but when you have a small tank , you have to make up for the absence of that cycle of browsing, and make a few regular modifications and provisions to keep the ottos feeding regime within the perameters they enjoy.

Basically your duties include water quality management of a more rigorous standard, and the removal of tougher algaes by either other small compatible species, or by manual maintenance. You'll probably also find "pet rocks" a better nutritional alternative to algae wafers and pieces of cucumber etc for which ottos have a limited compatability.

When the diet is ideal, the immune system is up, the renal system and digestion is more efficient, and consequently the personal toughness of ottos increases a little, and they become more able to shoulder the odd hit from dodgy water quality. Crack both the diet, and then the space, and shoal numbers thing too, and you have contented ottos that should live a long time, but if your tank cant support an entire shoal, then obviously you just have to make do.

Often key to this in a less than ideal situation is the heavy provision of oxygen, which enables them to raise their immune system, and create less energy demands on a system that by definition will be coping with digestive inefficiency and the rigours of a high metabolism.Sounds like a small thing, but often makes the difference between life and death.

Even in a petstore situation I belive ottos should be kept with plants in aquaria that produce algae, no matter how short their stay. A shipping time will seem like an eternity for such a small fish that feeds incessantly, and petstores should be making at least some effort, no matter how short the stay of the fish, to provide it with real food to strengthen it. Plentiful are the times an otto has taken unrecoverable damage from lack of food and water quality in a petstore, only to die weeks later in the hands of a new owner who may not be doing anything wrong. They are a fragile fish if not properly catered for.

Subtle stuff is otto keeping.

Hope this helps

git-

man thanks for the dissertation... I printed it off for further re-reading and research.

awhile back I bought a couple of wisteria that have begun to transform nicely into the lush green tall plants one would expect to have. They go nicely with the stalks of anacharis I have. The anacharis have grown lots of nice green new stalks and are doing well. I ended up ditching the hornwort, made too much of a mess in my tank.

as far as algae is concerned, I get a thin coating of brown algae (diatoms) on rocks and gravel, including the leaves o fthe wisteria and on the glass. I try not to clean that off too much so as to have plenty of food for my remaining oto(s).

as for them, I only see one at a time, but of the four I bought awhile back,I have only recovered two deceased individuals. The one I see seems to be happy enough, hanging on the glass, avoiding Tiger Barbs lol.

thanks again, git!

lol dude, you actually managed to triple post, delete the first two.

Diatomic algae- thats not really ideal otto food, its preferred by species that micropredate, being that it usually has a high quota of aufwuchs living in it , ottos prefer the newly grown green stuff, the brown may actually have contributed to their nutritional deficiency, and it will be crowding out green algaes.

Recommend doing regular major scrapes, then doing water changes immediately after. Diatomic algaes can reuse silicates from their dead compatriots to keep on growing, so do the scraping, then ditch a good proportion of the water, and the diatomic activity should reduce.

ScottF, outside of this discussion on overall Otto health and nutrition I find keeping a rock solid temp in the tank is key to health. I may be reading too deeply, but if your tank is swinging between 78 and 82F, it's a big swing, whether it's a daily swing or even every week only you know. But get that temp locked down as much as you can, my 37 gallon cichlid tank swings from 79.2 to 79.9 using a 150 watt jager placed right next to the suction tube of my emporer 280. This may not be exactly what the temp is but the swing is minimal and I'm surprised my jager is as repeatable as it is.

I also find it difficult to keep Otos. Probable because of the water that we've got here. I am trying to buy the German Imported once & the survival rate improved. I will also try the rock in a jar method for Algae & place the rock in the tank, with the Otos & see how it will go.


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