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Please help! My betta, Henry is always friendly - very friendly. Over the last few days he stopped coming to the top to feed when I would wiggle my finger. He would normally come right to my finger and even rub up against my finger to let me pet him, etc. He is in a 2.5 gal acrylic Mini bow tank with a Red Sea Nano filter. I put Coppersafe, some Aquarium salt, Easy Balance and Betta Water Conditioner by Splendid Betta in his tank when I do the water changes. His water quality was always perfect. I have had him for about 15 months now - he has had mild popeye a couple of times but never anything like this.

He started to stay at the very top of the water in the back hiding in the plants and getting very scared when I or anyone else came near the tank over the past few days -- stopped eating but if we happened to drop the pellets right into the tank on top of where he was hiding, he would snap out of it (wake up??) and eat the food. If he noticed us before the food, he would run to the bottom and hide - he was never scared and never hid. I don't know what hte problem is! Over the last 24-36 hours he moved to hide at the bottom - not at the top at all now. He was literally lying upside down before and I thought he had died but he finally moved so he was not dead. So, we decided to do 100% water change and added the usual along with a half tab (for 2.5 gal) of Maracyn 2 because it treats bacterial infections including dropsy. I am not sure if I should also add Maracyn as I have read the 2 can be used together. When I had him in the small tank when I was doing the water change, I tried to feed him his favorite food and he moved as if he was going to try to eat - he wanted to but he could NOT get up to the top of the water. I put him back into the tank and he flopped around on the bottom a bit and suddenly darted across to the other side but it has been about 2 hours since and he is lying totally on one side flat and breathing rather heavy. He is a bit bloated - not totally extreme but he is bloated, he just looks a bit different and maybe some white underneath but not any kind of growth - just something that seems to happen when he is bloated his gills look swollen or something - not a fish expert -- not even close and I am very distraught so I am sorry this message is rambled but I need help to know what I am treating here. He has been hiding and scared, not eating but seems to want to but gets scared and tonight just cannot get up to eat the food. He is now lying flat on his left side and breathing heavy. I am really very upset and do not know what to do - please help me!! Thank you so much.

Unfortunately it sounds like that betta is reaching the end, a lot of them dont make more than two years and yours is no doubt approaching that age, combined with the ageing effects of being in a small tank that obviously has had water quality issues on and off,he will be metabolically weak, and that maracyn dose may have proven to be more than he can take, its also possible that the maracyn in a tank that small totally annihilated the aerobic bacteria that maintains the cycle, and the result is water quality hell.

I wouldnt be surprised if the bloating is the onset of dropsy, but as youll see if you look on the disease profiles, dropsy is as much about renal failure as it is disease, and this may simply be his metabolism collapsing.

There is little to suggest at this point since he sounds like his renal system is overloaded, perhaps a water change to reduce the presence of the meds a little to give him a chance, but in all fairness I think you'd be extremely lucky to save a fish this far gone.He is a labyrinth fish though, and tougher than most, if you can reduce the toxic state of the water by using ammolock and activated carbon filtration its worth a go, but I honestly doubt there will be a lot of time left.

Good luck.

Thanks for the response that was very inappropriate & cruel. You apparently think I used Maracyn to treat him which is why you believe I overdosed my fish. I did not use Maracyn as my post states -- I administered the proper dosage of Maracyn 2, so I did not overdose him at all.

I did nothing to harm Henry and for you to suggest that he could have become sick from the things you listed is horrible. A 2.5 gal tank is not small for 1 betta - in fact I have been told on numerous occasions the tank is too big for him. His eyes looks irritated a few times - mild popeye I said in my post - his water always tested perfect and I always maintainted the highest water quality so you do not know what you are talking about obviously. All medications can be adjusted according to your tank size - you just divide the dose properly so that had nothing to do with it either - you have no idea what you are talking about but decide to leave me a cruel reply suggesting that somehow something I did or controlled is what harmed him. Obviously I was upset enough - even more so when he had died by morning and to get some kind of horrible response like this after losing him is just awful - because it isn't true at all. I took very good care of him and he was a happy fish always blowing bubble nests and playing and coming up to me to be pet I am loved my fish and had NO CONTROL over him becoming so rapidly ill. In the future, please don't respond to posts where people ask for help and are upset if you are just going to accuse them of hurting the fish they loved. How cruel and awful of you. To give advice, you should know what you are talking about - and nothing that you said was fact - all of the reasons you inferred that could have caused his death other than age or no reason at all - were just not true or possible because of the way I took care of him. Very cruel.

I don't think longhairedgit was being cruel here in any way. He was simply trying to help you and is very knowledgeable especially in the area of fish diseases and to say he should never reply to anyone again is ridiculous. Apparently he was right about the fish being close to its end and stated he thought it was the onset of dropsy the "pine cone" effect may have not been showing up yet. The previous water quality issues he was referring to was most likely the previous cases of popeye you talked about. No one here is accusing you of not doing your best to care for your fish, only trying to help you figure out whats going on. In any case it sounds like your betta had a good life and you treated it better than a lot of people do.

OK, big deep breath It sounds like you've done a pretty good job of looking after your little man. Was he your first betta?

Most of the time, a fish for sale at the LFS is close on 6 months old. 2-3 years is a pretty good trot for most LFS bettas, so it could just be that he is getting on in years and his body isn't functioning the way it used to be.

Best thing for bettas with 'unidentified general blah-ness' is clean fresh water and indian almost leaf/ketapang (sold as Atison Betta Spa in the USA). Stop the coppersafe, aquarium salt, and easy balance, just use the betta conditioner. Ketapang drops the pH a little, has mild antibacterial properties, and adds a certain viscosity to the water which seems to help them function. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but it has really made a big difference for a lot of breeders and keepers, and is used extensively in the recovery of fighting specimens, so it would be my main recommendation.

Generally, once you notice they are sick, unless you can pinpoint exactly what it is, medications will usually just put more stress on the body. It is really counter-intuitive as we are used to thinking that drugs make everything better, but this is one of those times where it can do the opposite.

I am really sorry but in my experience, at this stage, I think your options were pretty limited. Once they start darting and breathing like that, they are really on their last legs

I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm sure henry appreciated the effort you put in to making his life as comfortable as possible

For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

As randy stated really. Its not me who has the knowledge deficiency here.You gave him half a maracyn tab , that treats 5 gallons, a whole tablet treats 10 . Take tank decor into the equation, you more than double dosed him. Thats enough to kill most fish.Treatments in small tanks and I reiterate this is a tiny tank,have to be approached very gently. Not only because calculating the dosage becomes more critical for the fish's intake of the med, but because the aerobic bacteria will most likely be killed, and the result will be increasingly poor water quality that will affect the fish further.

Pop-eye is caused by rough water conditions and high bacterial presences, and 2 gallon tanks are always subject to quick ammonia spikes and nitrite spikes unless regulated and maintained with total diligence. Do you even know what the water perams were, especially after the meds were administered?

Its also true to say that harmful bacterial levels can be lethally high without ever showing on a test kit, since many harmful bacteria have no overall effect on tankwater quality,most of the bacterial fish diseases can be omnipresent and take no part in the cycle of decomposition that would give you a reading, but they certainly do directly kill fish.Some, which to us are tiny amounts of food poisoning bacteria that our immune systems handle without us ever knowing,and indeed which any of us may pick up in the course of an average day, can be harmful to fish, and if you touch the fish effectively breaching the skin slime layer, you can transmit such bacteria to the fish directly, thus it is not recommended to touch your fish except when you absolutely have to. A tank can read fine on tests kits and still be a lethal pit of disease.Maintaining good water quality is about more than ammonia , nitrate, and nitrite levels, sometimes its about giving the tank a purge with something like melafix, which wil kill much of the ambient harmful bacteria while not adversely affecting the filter bacteria too much.

A test kit tells you nothing about the activity or levels of harmful bacteria,just about the presence of those that take part in the decomposition of organic detritus and I assume not knowing that is part of the reason you did not take his bouts of pop-eye seriously.

While a 2.5 gal tank doesnt seem small for a betta to some people its a tiny tank by the standards of others , it has an impact on their overall fitness, if you saw the specimens in the 25 gal I keep mine in youd see the difference. Its a long standing bit of aquacultural blindness that really has to change. A 2.5 gal may keep a betta alive, but it wont keep it fit, and ive used the analogy before- its like having a dog and not taking it for walks. A betta without much muscle tone, cardio fitness and a higher metabolism will not endure diseases well as it may be immuno supressed, and conversely they dont survive treatments well either, let alone a complete overdose. There is a problem with the expectations of suitable habitable space among many betta keepers. Its a globally unhealthy thing, often promoted by the fish industry to increase sales, granted they dont need much room, but 5 gallon plus is a better minimum requirement from which to start. A 10 gal takes the knocks from treatment protocols much better still.

I am genuinely sorry the fish died, but since the flame I just got, its a sympathy more for the fish than the owner.

I suggested you get the meds out and stabilise the fish, even though I knew it was too late, because I like to try everything possible to save a fish,but you didnt want to hear that. You'd run out of options really, a fish so burdened with illness, then given an overdose would have died instantly idf subjected to more medication, the only change was to give the fish a break from the meds given , allow it to rest and then maybe continue treatment along a gentler line of approach, and as suspected, he didnt get that far. Not suprising, but I was willing to help you give him the best chance.

To you its cruelty, to me its accuracy. I have over 200 fish including bettas, multiple systems, multiple tanks, used to work in animal rescue, saved around 5000 animal a year, wrote most of the disease info on this site, have a degree in animal care, and 25 years experience in fishkeeping. I have no illusions about the efficacy of meds, their correct usage, and the likelihood of outcomes.

I wont be put off contributing because someone is (rather understably I suppose) getting snappy because they dont understand what they have done, and is suffering from a little grief. I know that in the same situation id perhaps suffer a little guilty conscience, and that might enflame the old temper a bit, but id try not to flame with such vigour. I dont blame people for their mistakes, but it is nice if they have a suitable mindset for correcting the mistake, or at least avoiding the perpetuation of it. I also understand that as far as you knew you were doing the best thing for him within your scope of knowledge and ability.

You'd do better to listen than flame, otherwise folks will not really be forthcoming with help next time. All of us manage to kill a fish inadvertantly at one time or another, it goes with the territory, but it is rather better to take it with grace, recognise and acknowledge the mistake and move on and do better next time.

Ive run into this particular attitude so many times during animal rescue I just dont tolerate it any more. You have my sympathies for your loss , those who ask for help must know that sometimes and answer may not be what they want to hear, or especially pleasing to their pride, but that in no way diminishes the accuracy of said information.

If the world was full of perfect fishkeepers no one would have to ask anything. For the record if I wished to be cruel you'd know all about it.You wouldnt need to read between the lines. Im very direct.At no point did I suggest neglect, Im sure you loved your fish very much, but we all make mistakes, and that clearly includes you, like it or not.

BTW you almost always have control over a fish becoming ill, by quarantine, conditioning, excellent water quality, and appropriate housing, diet, in some cases preventative medicine, and early and gentle treatment if something does occur. Beyond that a badly bred fish may die prematurely, and granted theres nothing you can do about that.The rigours of a weakening condition and small housing can have a huge effect on the biological age of the fish, and I already suggested that may be a factor, naturally it makes effective treatment more difficult, since the fish may have prematurely aged organs less able to handle the impact of medication. I also appreciate that makes your job as a healer more difficult, but if you want to defend 2.5 gallon tanks, then well what can I say except- pffft!

Everything about successful fishkeeping is down to preventive care, you ignored the bouts of pop-eye as just irritation,and that was your first cue to investigate water quality and bacterial levels, that wasnt done, the next stage was full bacterial infection and probably bacterial septacaemia with renal collapse.

If I was trying to be cruel would I really be giving you all this info and analysis? A cruel person would just have told you to euthanise the fish to end its suffering, and accuse you of poisoning it with no explanation and being a lousy fishkeeper. Such behaviour wouldnt be permitted on here,and I would have no part of it.

I pointed out why , how, and how to prevent it again, as well as trying to give you an option to save the fish, and gave you a realistic odds on its chances of survival, therefore giving you an understanding of what to expect,perhaps even to soften the blow.My primary wish is to advance your abilities and knowledge, and therefore your instincts for fish care. On the net we often used abridged communication to get the message across quickly, with reasonable accuracy, by and large we do not give you the four page essay on disease prevention that we could do. Do not assume that brief communication is intended as cruelty, it is merely a distillation of experience intended to help you. From the information you gave, the response was accurate.Perhaps you will think before jumping to conclusions next time eh?

I ask you, is that cruelty?

I do appreciate the time & efforts you put into both posts in a reply to my situation. However, I do feel that any attempts at personal judgements and attacks are to say the least, inappropriate, ridiculous, and quite unnecessary given that neither of us know the other and are therefore in no position to pass said judgements.

I did not attempt to pass those judgements on you nor did I question your experience or that you may be qualified to give advice. I was not implying you had a knowledge deficiency though nor am I any of the things you portray me to be. I never said you should not respond to anyone -- though to respond based on a misunderstanding and to make false assumptions and accusations is not the way to offer any kind of advice in my opinion. I think a certain care and sensitivity -- empathy, should be taken. Because you incorrectly assumed certain things, you did not think I deserved that kind of treatment apparently. I did not have to read between the lines - your attitude and judgements were quite obvious as you made 100% clear in your second post. I am a new fish owner but not the kind of owner you suggest at all. I am certainly far from new at caring for pets - and while fish are different and can be very hard to care for, I did educate myself about bettas and how to care for him to the very best of my ability -- which is not as limited as you describe. I do feel that you probably meant well however and would have agreed with you if I had been the neglectful, uneducated , careless, owner you implied I was but I am nothing of the sort. If I had not treated a sick fish and had ignored poor water conditions that had caused him to become ill, I would in fact be that kind owner but in fact, that is not the case at all. That is what I was referring to when I said you shouldn't offer advice when you do not know what you are talking about. I felt your comments and inferences were cruel and rude because while your facts and knowledge are accurate as you know -- what was not accurate was your comments regarding my situation. You misunderstood something -- then made several more assumptions and came to conclusions based on nothing that I said, so, in fact, what you describe is not accurate.

As you can see from my original post, I did not treat Henry with Maracyn. I treated him with a 1/2 tab of Maracyn 2. The dosage of which is 2 tabs for 10 gallons so I appropriately gave him less than 1/2 tab for 2.5 gallons, taking into account his decor. I asked if I should also add Maracyn but had not treated him with Maracyn - so I did not overdose Henry. You also assumed that I ignored the two occasions he developed popeye which I did not and that his popeye resulted from poor water condtions. A day after I brought him home, he developed a mild case of popeye which I treated immediately. A few weeks later, his eyes seemed irritated again so I treated him again successfully. I have maintained excellent water quality for the duration of his life to the best of my ability and knowledge which is not as limited as you believe it to be. For the next 14 months he was healthy until now when he became so ill, he died. My water quality was perfect as I stated in my post as well. I knew how important water quality, food, and treating illness at the very first sign were -- and I did my best to give him the best treatment, food and always maintain good water quality.

I know who I am & that I took the very best care for him that I could have. Nothing you say can challenge that or make me doubt what I know in my heart. I was upset, after my fish died, to read a reply that inferred that I had a major hand in his death obviously -- as anyone else would have been because there was obviously a misunderstanding that you based most of your advice on. The advice you based on that misunderstanding may have been correct but it did not apply to my situation - at all. The only part you mentioned that accurately described part of my situation is that I have a 2.5 gallon tank, which I have read and have been told was more than sufficient for a betta. If I had ever been told it was not, he would have been in a bigger tank - it was only the 1 betta so there was never a need to quarantine him either. He got plenty of exercise and was a healthy & happy fish until the end when he became ill and died.

I am a first time betta owner and do need help. I am confused when it comes to water changes - how much to change, how often to change it - do I ever do a full change and take him out to do so... is this tank really too small? What is the appropriate size tank for only ONE betta? Am I supposed to rinse the gravel and plants off with every full water change? I asked these questions on so many forums so many times and every person gives me a different answer - every site says something else. These things I would appreciate help with because I would love to get another fish. I do feel that perhaps if I had more experience that I may have known sooner to treat him and that something was wrong -- that I do feel bad about and I wonder if I could have helped him earlier if I had known -- but I did not. And yes hard lessons are learned sometimes - this being the hardest kind of all.

Because of the misunderstanding & assumption that I previously had ignored water conditions and popeye, you made a lot of accusations. If you had not made those assumptions & did not misunderstand what medication I administered, you probably would not have responded in the way that you did. I know the person I am and that I provide any and all pets I have cared for in my life with a wonderful, safe, & loving home. There is no insult you can say to take that away as I mentioned - I was open to advice, not to insults and accusations based on ideas you came to on your own. I feel that this whole situation was very unfortunate. I do apologize if you feel I judged you in some way -- I was going from your comments which were not based on who I was as an owner & what I did for him. I gave him the proper dose, always paid very close attention to the water as much as I knew how to, and always treated him immediately if when I knew something was wrong. Thanks to all for your advice & input at such a hard time. Take care ~

longhairedgit was just trying to help. He's one of the most dedicated people to this site and is most likely going to be giving advice to every single thing you post as he's done with me. He wasn't trying to be mean, he just wanted to throw in his two cents to help Henry. And I'm so sorry about him, by the way. It must be so horrible to lose that fish that you've had for so long. He's up there swimming with the big fish now. You sound like you were a really good owner to him.

1 Ocellaris Clown: $14.95...1 Pink Dottyback: $12.99...1 Three Striped Damsel: $4.50...1 Blue Velvet Damsel: $8.95
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I notice a few things change in edit there, but its much as I expected. A marcyn two tablet contains 10 mg of minocycline, a half tab therefore has 5 mg and thats still a hell of a lot for a small fish in that state, theres such a thing as going in gently, so that you dont overload the renal system, I know that is what is printed on the instructions, but seasoned keepers know not to go in that heavy with this kind of complaint. I know following instructions could hardly be considered a fault of yours though, they never do give complete instructions inclusive of all circumstances.

There was still nothing insulting in the original post unless reading english is a difficulty for you, ive reread it a dozen times and i still cant find anything remotely judgemental or insulting in it to anyone that doesnt already suffer from some kind of inadequacy issue, and by contrast the flame came on really strong, So theres a big what--eeeeever from me. Besides the symptoms of disease no longer really fit the story. These things dont happen on their own now do they?

I bow to the superior knowledge and ability of a 2 year betta keeper who is told that a 2.5 is big for a betta and believes it. In the final analysis I dont think anyone accused you of anything rather than maybe being discourteous, and a little bit sharp on the temper, and not reading the post correctly and in context.

And if you want accurate advice, give accurate and complete information. Its illogical to omit information than slam people for picking up what could be therefore faults in care, besides fish infections dont come from nowhere, and I trust symptomology more than I do people on average, and with good reason in this case.I see a lot of devils advocacy in the writing here, and frankly , I cant be bothered with it.Your clearly never going to find the cause of infection with that attitude unless of course you already know what it is. Its a waste of my time.

"You should never post again?" I think thats a judgement.Quite a big one. Whether you are a good fish owner or not, a beginner or not, you have to be willing to reinvestigate any and all circumstances surrounding an illness and a death, hitting me with a wall of arrogance about your much vaunted and not yet proven care capabilities only serves to block that process.Reoccurring pop-eye, then bacterial infection and death, obviously you must have had every base covered, knew how to administer meds, had nothing but perfect water quality, and had a great idea of disease control, diet, accomodation, and so on. I praise your ability.

Since you obviously have all the answers you wont need advice from me then . I wouldnt deign myself even worthy of offering advice to someone so in control of the situation.Thats one problem thats easy to solve. Tell me this though, how do you propose to prevent your next betta from suffering the same fate?

Not that im particularly interested in the answer, but by way of neutrality heres a tip : if you look at all of the causes of pop-eye and bacterial swelling of bodily tissues in all the best literature and in the most detail, sourced from any reputable place worldwide, I believe you will find your answer. You may find it surprising,even impossible to understand,and perhaps you may even consider that the worlds most eminent scientists must be wrong, given that your care is so rigorously perfect.

Good luck with that.

Theres an announcement at the top of the hospital forum and this is a prime example of why it should be read before posting. If you leave important information out then people can only go by what you have written. I know it takes longer (only a few mins really) it makes it much easier for us to help. I understand you were upset at the time of posting and most likely in a hurry to get some advise but taking the time to answer as much as you can from it really will benenfit you in the long run.
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/8698.1.htm?0#

There is a wealth of information available to you on this site. I hope you stick around to find more of it.

Sorry your fish passed away.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.