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Hi guys,

Last weekend I bought a couple of otos for my 15g and while at the LFS my wife convinced me to get a Blue Ram. I was very hesitant given everything I've read about them being extra sensitive, short lifetime, etc. but the one thing that made me finally relented was the fact that these Rams were bred by a local hobbyist.

Well 3 days later the Ram & one of the otos came down with ich. This is the first time I've had ich in my tanks, so I did quite a bit of research on treatments. Most of the articles I read recommend increasing the temp and using salt or meds until at least 3 days after any visible signs of ich have disappeared. So I did a 40% water change, increased the temp from 27C/80F (normal room temp without heater this time of year) to 29C/84F over 24 hours (added airstone to increase aeration), and started dosing Protozin (LFS recommendation). I did not want to use salt because I have plants, loaches (botia sidtimunki) and corys (hastatus and habrosus) in the tank.

The instruction on the Protozin bottle says to treat on days 1, 2, 3, & 6, and to half the dosage when scaleless species like loaches are present. Right now I've already done the day 3 half-dose but I can still see some white spots on the Ram and oto (none on the other fishes). Should I continue the daily half-dosage for at least 3 more days (to make up for the reduced dosage on the first 3 days)? Or should I just wait until day 6 before dosing again? And, what if the ich remains after 7 days - should I do another water change and redo the 1-2-3-6 day treatment?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Last edited by upikabu at 03-Dec-2005 07:49

Last edited by upikabu at 03-Dec-2005 07:51

-P

i have no knowledge of ur meds...but the one i used...ive always extending it...like....6 days after the last visible ich.

Protozin is da bomb! (can I say that and still sound sensible? )
That stuff is just magnificent at clearing protozoan infections, I'd recommend it to anyone. So far I've not had a death from it (that I know of anyway, you know how it goes)

Anyway, firstly, tut tut on not having a quarantine tank .
Ich is reasonably easy to get rid of, but it could just as easily have been some nasty resistant bacterial strain. Even just one of those $10 jobbies from The Warehouse would do, its only a holding area for closer observation relly, doesn't have to be flash Once you get a certain amount invested in your tank and plants etc, it gets a bit scary thinking about how much can be lost
Something for next time maybe

I have only had ich once myself, but I am unfortunately the velvet queen, so hopefully this will help

At the temperature that you have it at now, you are probably just shy of the point where the parasite's 'brain' fries. It depends on the strain of ich, some will lose ability to function/reproduce at about 84*F, others will need closer to 90*F. I expect the required temperature will just keep going up
Anyway, getting it to reproduce faster is a good thing because the meds can usually only be effective at a certain stage in the lifecycle, and by speeding up the lifecycle you should get to most of the parasites within the 7 day treatment period.

I'm sure you've read all this anyway

I don't think protozin has any sort of required cumulative effect with the dosing, i'm fairly certain that over a period of 24 hours the ingredients become deactivated anyway (the colour tends to go away in less time in aquariums withere there is a high level of organic content). You should be fine with doing a gravel vac in between day 3 and day 7, and definately after day 7. It'll help remove any of the parasites and/or eggs that have fallen on the substrate.

Also, with the filter, if its chockablock full of mulm and gunge, it might be worth giving it a bit of a swoosh in tank water. I'd only bother if its utterly choked though, as you run the risk of a mini-cycle, but if its clogged up then you also run the risk of the meds being weakened by that and not reaching all the eggs that are likely to be in it.

If the spots are not gone by day 7, just keep going. Actually, even if the spots are gone, wait 3 days and give them another dose, just to try to catch any stragglers.
If there are spots left, i'd just go on to treat day 8, 9, 10, wait and then go to 14, and see where you are then.
You could leave a gap, but it just gives the parasites time to re-establish, and thats no fun.

As I said, I have only had ich once *shudder* so most of that is based on how I treat velvet, but its mostly relevant I think

Hope it helps


For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - Terry Pratchett

Thanks a lot for your advice, tankie & Callatya!

Yes, yes, I know I should've quarantined them before (*slaps own wrist*), especially the Blue Ram. You'd think a recent bad experience with newly acquired cardinals should've taught me something hey! I actually have a 10L hospital tank that I could've used, but my wife calls it the tank of death, because none of the fish that I put in the hospital tank for treatment ever made it out alive. But since the Blue Ram was a totally unexpected purchase, I didn't have the tank ready. Anyways, top of my list for next year is a good size (at least 10G) tank especially for quarantining.

Glad to hear you've had good luck with Protozin. Today is day 4 in the treament cycle and I still see some spots on the Blue Ram & oto (but not as many & smaller). I think I'm going to do another half-dose today. I lost my lone cory Habrosus :#(, but I'm pretty sure it was the temp increase that did it, plus the fact that he's been mourning the lost of his mate a few weeks ago. Corys are just not happy alone, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find any habrosus in the last 5 months (the two I got were the only survivors in a bad batch that the LFS got).

I did a good rinse of the filter when I did a water change before the first dose, so hopefully it's not blocking the meds. I'm keeping a eye on the ammonia & nitrite levels too, just in case.

If you think the Protozin is not as effective after 24hrs (I also noticed the blue colour going away), I wonder why they recommend the skip between day 3 and day 6, instead of just continued daily dosing until all signs of ich are gone?

Thanks again!




-P

Here is some info that might help you understand Ich better.

“White-spot” Parasite, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis

This disease is easy to recognise, as the skin of the infected fish becomes covered with white spots, each the size of a pinhead. Each spot represents the site of one, or sometimes two, parasites. All parts of the body gills, may be attacked.

The causative agent is named Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. It is a spherical and large by protozoan standards, measuring up to 1mm in diameter. Short, hair-like processes known as cilia are spread densely over the surface. A horseshoe-shape nucleus is also present which is clearly visible under the microscope.

By the means of the cilia the parasite rotates vigorously and burrows into the surface layer (epidermis) of its host. It feeds on skin cells and surface debris. The burrowing action causes a local irritation and the epidermis grows across the parasite to enclose it, thus forming a “White Spot”

Reproduction occurs away from the host. After maturing in the skin, which takes a few days to three weeks, depending on the temperature, the parasite bores out, swims away and comes to rest on a submerged object such as a stone, or plant. Here it forms a jelly-like cyst within which a series of rapid cell divisions take place. In a few hours, several hundred daughter cells or swarmers, are produced, which break out of the cyst to find a new host. Alighting on the skin, they burrow in to recommence the life cycle. If they fail to find a host within three to four days, they perish.

Symptoms
If the protozoan is introduced into a tank containing healthy fish, little harm may occur, other than a fleeting infection with a few parasites. If however, the fishes are already weakened for some other reason, e.g. lack of oxygen, the parasite will quickly cover the whole body surface, causing irritation and opening up wounds for secondary infections. The host mobility may become affected. In sever cases, death may result.

Prevention
If white-spot appears in an otherwise healthy tank, the parasite “must” have been introduced either as an adult on a newly acquired fish, or as the cyst form on, for example new stones, a plant or even added water. The only certain method of prevention, is to quarantine all new stock, including stones, plants etc; preferably in water at a temperature of 77F. Allow one week’s quarantine.

Treatments
There are too many treatments today to recommend any specific one. Many can be bought easily at aquarium outlets.


Several very interesting points to think about.

Very easy to recognise.
Its reproduction cycle.
No host they will die.
If introduced into a healthy tank little harm may occur.
Pay attention to all tank details.
Weakened fish, and lack of oxygen can/may and will cause sever deaths. All this is usually caused by poor tank maintenance and/or incorrect and faulty equipment.
Prevention is the best cure
A Parasite “must” be introduced into the tank.

This information was collected from Fresh Water Tropical Fish

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Thanks, Keith. I did see your previous posts on this and found it helpful.

-P

I have ich again in my 55g. The second time in a month or so. I dosed for 2 weeks last time, a week after I saw the last spot. I use Ich Attack by Kordon, because it is safe for the cories and loaches. I have never used Protozin before, as this is only my second time with ich. I upped the temp also and found this to work very well in speeding up the time. I only had the tank to 82F at first and it wasn't going away. Someone on here told me to raise it to 86F and that worked wonders.
I definitely think I need a QT tank now. Good luck!

*Kristin*