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I have noticed (again) that people haven't been asking for parameters when helping in the hospital forum. I don't mean to be a pain but it's REALLY important to get more information when you're helping people out. The effort is great but it's really impossible to diagnose issues with any certainty without knowing more about the illness and the tank environment.

Cory_Di posted about this a few months ago, there is a sticky at the top of the forum:

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/55169.html?200502210353]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/55169.html?200502210353" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

Misdiagnosis is a real problem if you're trying to help people out. If the fish are stressed by something like ammonia for instance and you suggest a dose of medication, the consequences can be fatal. If the problem is low oxygen or overstocking, dosing certain medications can lower dissolved O2 to an extent that the fish will be asphyxiated and die. It's also important to ask for parameters even if the problem is clear because most of the time the initial cause of disease (ie. poor water quality, maintenance) will need to be addressed as well.

Another problem with misdiagnosis is if you guess and you're wrong, the suggested medication will not work, the poster then has to go out and buy more medication, wasting valuable time and money. If you have sick fish, that wasted time could mean a dead fish that could have been saved with the right advice.

It's really important to remember that you're suggesting measures that could be life and death for someone's pet. I don't intend to discourage people from helping but you have to make sure you're giving the correct information. It's impossible to be sure without asking questions of posters to find out what is going on in a broader sense.

PLEASE take the time to ask those extra questions. A good template is at the top of the forum in another sticky:

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/43725.html?200407200128]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/43725.html?200407200128" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

If you don't know what the issue is, please don't make guesses that could lead someone down the wrong path. Ask some questions and see if you can find the issue by learning more. Misdiagnosis is not a good way to go and it's far better to wait for someone else to get on the thread with more info if you're not sure. If nobody's picking the thread up, PMs are a good way to get some attention from frequent posters.

If you haven't read the stickies at the top of the forum, do it now. They are announced for a reason.

trystianity

A very good point but I think you will find many read the instruction book after and not before.

May be this info could be highlighted so that it can be seen more easly.

I also recommend a photo if possible this could save a lot of time.

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
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A very good point but I think you will find many read the instruction book after and not before.

Agreed. People don't read stickies, I think most of the time they're panicked because their fish are sick. That's not an excuse for people helping in the hospital forum though, a lot of them are really regular posters that *should* have seen the stickies by now. Cory_Di brought this up months ago, this thread was just intended to be a reminder.

I'm not sure how to make this more visible, I brought a few ideas up in Site Feedback months ago too, nothing was implemented at the time and I haven't seen any mention of it.

[link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Site%20Feedback/56270.html]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Site%20Feedback/56270.html" style="COLOR: #36af30[/link]

People don't read stickies, I think most of the time they're panicked because their fish are sick.

I would fall into that category... I would just send up the flare.

Timely reminder Trys. The parameters affect meds and other measures.

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~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Tryst,

I think you (yet again) raise a very good point in reminding us what is important. I agree with the fact that some fish keepers break out in a panic when one of the fishies doesn’t behave as usual. Happens to me all the time when a fish gets sick (fortunately not for a while now).

On the other hand, I believe I have seen quite a few posts where the poster knowingly “hides” parameters, for example to cover up a way overstocked tank, with the hope that someone will have an answer that would be independent of that fact. I have seen posts where a person was asked at least 3 times how big the tank is and never answered that question.

I have more than once been tempted (and I believe I actually did it once) to reply that I will not provide help until all the cards are on the table. That might sound rude, but it helps to avoid misdiagnosis.

There will be always cases when a responder is off and suggests a wrong treatment. That is just one of these things that happen when you cannot see the fish/tank (even a picture might be insignificant – maybe a streaming video would work).

Thanks for the reminder,

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 12-Aug-2005 05:03

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I am SURE this started because of me. I am informed of the stickies, just at the time I could not get the results.


Not ALL people are just being ignorant and not reading.



In defence of the people who don't always have the tests on hand.




I bet I get a slap for sticking up for this!

Heh
Angel Eel

On the other hand, I believe I have seen quite a few posts where the poster knowingly “hides” parameters, for example to cover up a way overstocked tank, with the hope that someone will have an answer that would be independent of that fact. I have seen posts where a person was asked at least 3 times how big the tank is and never answered that question.

I have more than once been tempted (and I believe I actually did it once) to reply that I will not provide help until all the cards are on the table. That might sound rude, but it helps to avoid misdiagnosis.

People do that a lot. I don't really understand why to be honest..... If they're that worried or ashamed about their stocking/maintenance practices then they already have the answer. It also makes no sense for me because they're posting for help, without that kind of info we can't really help them, so why bother even asking? I've also seen some people that just seem to be looking for anyone to justify poor fish husbandry. If any of you are out there reading this, I have to ask why? If you're going to do it anyway, why ask anybody for an opinion? You're probably not going to like the answer. Does knowing someone else does it or thinks it's ok help people sleep at night or something?

I don't think refusing help is rude at all. People are asking you for a favour, it's not like it's up to them to decide the terms and conditions. Some people have had issues with my posts before because I don't beat around the bush at all, if I see a problem with what they're doing I'll tell them right out because I think it's the most constructive way to solve a problem. Some people appreciate the honesty, others don't like criticism. You can't please everybody.

I don't think people should just refuse to help anybody that can't get extra tank info for whatever reason, but people withholding information on purpose is totally different.

I am SURE this started because of me. I am informed of the stickies, just at the time I could not get the results.

Not ALL people are just being ignorant and not reading.

In defence of the people who don't always have the tests on hand.

No, I won't be slapping anybody. I really don't mind if people can't provide everything immediately. Not everybody has test kits, some can't get to the LFS, are away from their tanks, etc. That's life, it happens, I'm not too concerned. It would be nice to have everything right out on the first post but that usually doesn't happen. Like I said, sometimes people are panicked, they don't read things, or else they just don't have all of the info.

What did bother me about your thread was that I counted 16 replies and nobody even bothered to mention anything about tank parameters/extra info about the setup. It just wasn't there. It wasn't just your thread either, I have barely seen anybody asking for any tank info when they've been replying to threads in this forum lately. This post was more to remind people to ask those questions when they're helping out. It's a really important step that absolutely can't be skipped if you want to give proper advice. Even if you can't totally avoid misdiagnosis because you aren't there, it makes a real difference to give an educated guess (as educated as possible) rather than speculation.

Bottom line is, if you can't get all of the info there, that's ok. Post and we'll do our best. Give us more info as it becomes available. If you don't have something mentioned in the stickies right away, just say "I don't have test kits," I'm fine with that. The point is that (for helpers) without discussing more about the tank and taking a more holistic approach, you can only really give second rate advice.

We can badger people as much as possible to provide all of their info on the first post every single time but it just isn't going to happen. That's why I think it's far more important to make sure people are asking necessary questions when they respond to posts.

Lots of people just panic, press the emergency button, send up flares, etc. That's normal and it's to be expected. That's what makes asking for parameters and stuff so important. When you're looking at a tank full of sick/dying fish, unless you've had a lot of experience you're probably not going to take a step back and ask: "Hmm I wonder what my ammonia reading is?" Most people just freak out. That's one advantage of being on the other side of a computer screen, you're not looking at the damage, have all your wits about you (hopefully ) and can look at the situation with a bit more logic. I think a big part of that is helping people through the diagnostic process, asking questions.

[/rant]

Last edited by trystianity at 12-Aug-2005 17:21

hahahaha

Angel EEl

Here'a thought that ties into this post.

Considering most fishkeepers have invested their hard earned dollars into this hobby, a test kit is only about $30. It's a worthwhile additional investment to make to get your own test kit so that when you have a problem, you can test the water right away and post the results. Why wait for the fish store to open... More and more fishstores are now charging for tests so it makes even MORE sense now to get your own kit.





The Amazon Nut...