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Ha! Don't we all! As a beginner, I have been exploring this site & noticed most of us have one thing in common.......... we want more or many different kinds of fish. We are similiar to kids in a candy store........ so to say. Hence, many of us end up with another tank, either on purpose or necessity, to house the outcasts from our original tank.

Judging from what I have read, I get the impression that most people are not happy with the response they get from the more experienced fish people here as far as reccomendations go as to the stocking of their tanks. They may recommend fish that we are not enthieused about & on top of that we are to have 5 or more if they are schooling fish! That cuts down on the number of other fish we can have! Ha! (injecting humor here)

This post is in no wise criticizing anyone here. In fact I applaude the advice & efforts & knowledge of the ones offering advice! All I am doing is venting frustration over the fact that there are too many fish & not enough room! Ha! I want the rest of the newcomers to this hobby to realize that they are not alone in their dilemma as to how to stock their tank. I am in sympathy with you, as I am in the same boat, & I have a 55 gal.! I started with a 10 gal. also, & see what happened? Ha!

Though my tank is now stocked (with some probable unwise choices) I may add to or subtract from it in an effort to satisfy the current occupants as well as myself, considering the advice from the more educated fish people here & reading the fish profiles. What I'm trying to say is........ maybe all of this is part of the enjoyment & frustration of the hobby? We take advice, we leave advice.............. we try stuff on our own........... just in case it might work? Ha! We can be a stubborn species ourselves. Sometimes us newcomers just want to see if our oun combination of fish will work for us. We mean the fish no harm............ we just want what we want, even if it means that later on down the road we are forced to change our wants............. or get another or bigger tank if we can afford it & have the room.

I don't mean to sound flippant here....... in case my sense of humor is not coming through. I just want others like myself to realize that they are not alone in their enthieusiasm for their new hobby despite it's many no no's. I'm just releasing my thoughts, as that is what this room looked like it was here for. Hope I am not out of line.

Opps! Sorry! I meant for this topic to go into the recovery room! Please excuse!

Hi Patty,
Your wish is my command.
As you noticed from the note, I did move it, but IT did not
move right away.
I believe that the system has to "cycle" before the move can become effective.
Frank

New subject...
You are correct and to house those "too many fish" many of
us have succumbed to the dreaded disease, MTS.

Most folks seem start as they walk through a store of some
sort that sells fish and notice the beautiful colors, or
the colorful gravel, or the beautiful plants (name your
poison). Then they purchase a "starter kit" or ask for
a tank for Christmas/Birthday, and they get a tank and, in
many cases, a starter kit. 99.9% of the time the person(s)
purchasing the tank and the fish have no idea what will go
with what, and if they will even fit in the tank, much less
how many the tank can house. So they get a pretty red one
a nice blue one etc. And some of the stores either have
untrained personnel or no scruples, or both, and they will
sell you anything you want with no warnings and very little
information if at all.

It's a funny thing about we humans... When we start
collecting things, we try to collect everything. The best
example I can think of, other than fish, is a stamp
collection. When folks, usually kids, start collecting
stamps they collect every stamp they can get a hold of and
mount the stamp in a book. Only later on, does the
realization strike them that it is impossible to collect
every stamp that has ever been issued. So, they begin to
specialize. Some collect only mint stamps (new and unused)
from a specific country. Some collect only Air Mail. Some
collect only mint airmail from a specific country. Some
collect stamps (specializing in either all mint or all used
from a specific decade or era) Some collect stamps
featuring animals, others collect only birds, or fish
Some only collect Postage Due stamps. Others collect only
First Day Covers, while others collect only Plate Blocks.
The list of possibilities is nearly endless but by now
I'm sure you get the idea.

Many of us have community tanks with fish of like temperament.
Others specialize in a species, or in a general area such
as a South American tank. Or, a West African Rift tank.
Some collect Monster Fish, and others Tetras. Some of us
have "nano tanks" of a gallon or less, while others
actually have tanks that a group of 20 people could swim
in!

Trying to force a person into something generally invites
that person to dig in their heels and not heed the advice
being given. I'd be willing to bet that all of us love
fish, it's now "we" phrase our advice that sometimes
strikes folks the wrong way. All anyone is trying to do
is prevent others from making our mistakes and trying to
make the hobby as satisfying as possible. When I was
growing up WHY? was my middle name, and decades later,
when I give advice on this forum I always try to include
the "why" or background on the topic so that the person
who posted has as nearly a complete picture of the
subject as possible. Then it is their option to heed or
venture out.

You are not out of line, and I hope I did not get out of
line. Venting, nicely, is one of the purposes of the
Recovery Room.

Personally, I like a lush green jungle with just a few
flashes of color (fish). Some would find that boooring.

Have Fun!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Well, thank you Frank for clarifying my post a bit more. No, you were not out of line either, although I did learn a bit more about stamp collecting than I expected too.

I like your statement, "Then it is their option to heed or venture out". It is such a nice way of saying that we might just do what we want to anyway. Ha!

Yes, buying a tank & fish is taken so lightly. I have been there myself & am currently trying to quit it! "Oh, but look at that one! It's so pretty! I have room for another fish or two!?" Then my conscience gets to me cause I feel sorry for the fish & I end up getting more of the same kind, cause, "They are a schooling fish". But now........... even 3 is not enough, some say.......... try 5 or 6.

Then there is the angel fish........... so many different kinds. And so much different advice! I have read on different fish sites: get only one, get 2 for the company, get at least 3 so just one is not picked on, & lastly...... they are a schooling fish......... get 4 to 6 if you have a 55 gal. or larger! Aaaahhh! I don't care to have the aggresion of mating pairs, so I just got 2, hoping for the best. What will come of it I can only wait & see. Ah............ the mystery of fish keeping.

Yes.......... we know you guys just want to help, & I have read some excellent posts! But that does not mean that we will like the advice given! Ha! The truth does hurt sometimes, no matter how well meaning it is. We just cannot have everything we want or as many as we want! Ha! And many of us will just learn that the hard way.

And in response to your, "Personally, I like..........", I will add that personally, I like the look of under a nice clear stream or lake, plus I also like the look of under the sea. Hence, half of my tank is decorated like under a lake with greenery, wood & rocks & the other half is decorated like under the ocean. I couldn't make up my mind! Ha! No one prefers it that way but me. I have viewed many tanks on the net, but have yet to see one half & half like mine. Surely I am not the only one that has done their tank this way?? Sorry, no pictures.

I applaud your efforts to try & explain the, "Why", of things. That is still my middle name, much to the dismay of my husband.

In addition, Fish Patty, you might want to take a look at one of my now-infamous editorial pieces ... in this thread.

Oh, you KNOW you have a serious case of Multiple Tank Syndrome when you do what Ad Konings did (I think he was the guy from The Cichlid Room who did this) ... he bought the house next door to his just so that he could fill it with aquaria. Then after moving the aquaria from the house he live in to the house next door, and finding that he had space on his hands, went and filled the vacant space with more aquaria. I think he has over 400 now ...

Not that far behind him, again from The Cichlid Room, is Pam Chin. She has 200 aquaria in her collection.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Wow Cali.......... that was some post! I read the thread & now I feel even more guilty than before! I have been feeling somewhat guilty since joining here since most posts say have at least 6 of the schooling fish & I thought I was doing decent enough by 3!

The signs at Wal-Mart (the only fish store in this town, so to say) do say to have 5 or 6 of the schooling fish, but I thought that was more so they could make more money than anything. Plus I really didn't think it mattered. I thought 3 was a big enough school since I wanted so many different kinds & a big school would limit the number of schools I could have. Beginners thinking I assume. But I'm learning, thanks to posts like yours.

I had one bronze cory, so decided one day I needed another bronze to keep it company. Hubby was in another city & stopped at pet store to get me a certain fish, so I told him to get me another bronze cory also. He came home with an emarld cory. The store had no bronze corys & the guy said the emarld would get along. Now I have to get more corys of 2 species!

He was in another city today & said, need any fish? Uhhhhh only if you will get what I say? I said for right now get 2 more bronze & 2 more emarld, nothing else please! I upped my cory cat schools to 3 of each species, did you notice? This is hard for me, as I don't want overcrowding.............. I still need to add more fish to my other schools also! They had no corys again, so he just got the 2 emarlds. I will ditch the 3 serpaes, as they pick on the bottom dwellers. I will add 3 more zebra danios to my existing 3 & 3 more red eyed tetras to my existing 3, & 2 more bronze corys to my one. All in all, in a 55 Gal. I will have:

2 angels
5 tiger barbs (not picking on the angels)
6 zebra danios
6 red eyed tetras
5 glowlights
5 guppies
3 emarld cory
3 bronze cory
oh no, forgot the 2 upsidedown catfish. I think they are schooling also?
1 pleco said to be a ruberlipped but I don't believe it
1 rainbow shark
1 neon left from a group of 6........... went with glowlights instead

This looks like a crowded tank to me, let alone trying to add more corys! I like variety. But you guys are saying bigger schools.
I did't realize fish keeping was so complicated as to species & numbers & water quality.
Don't know if all this makes you laugh or cry or mad. I think it does all three to me. I am sorry I am such a typical American beginner.

Thank you so much for your post. You have given me a lot to think about. If you want to add any more comments I am open. Don't think you could be much harder on me than I am on myself right now.

I think I can say for all of us that we're happy that you're trying so hard to provide good conditions for your fish.

You should have met some of the people I had to "deal with" at my pet store job...

><>

The point here though, Fish Patty, is that if you're making the effort to keep the fishes happy, that's a BIG plus point on your scorecard.

Part of the problem is an educational one. An aquarium requires a certain dedication to both physical labour (moving all those buckets of water around during water changes for example) and intellectual labour (mastering the nitrogen cycle, researching a fish's natural conditions, studying compatibility issues etc) that are in some quarters derided as 'uncool' or 'nerdy'. Well, the bad news for the channel hopping couch potatoes of this world, who have grown up with the idea that the pretty images are fed to them on a plate with no effort on their part other than pushing buttons on a remote control, is that it doesn't work like that. Unfortunately, in a world where a significant number of people are spoon fed 2,000 satellite channels, this idea takes some accommodating on their part. Some don't get past first base: they think all that they have to do is pick and mix the pretty colours, put them all together and hey presto, instant aquarium. Er ... NO. I've encountered some complete howlers in my time as regards this (such as the individual who stocked a new, uncycled aquarium with 40 fishes all at once, including wholly unsuitable species such as Pangasius catfishes that look pretty as juveniles, but grow into honking juggernauts weighing 60 pounds as adults!) and I suspect that more similar episodes will form a part of my life experience as I travel hither and thither. Needless to say, the individual I've just cited lost the whole lot in around 10 days.

Of course, if the standard of education in schools was suitably rigorous, much of this wouldn't be a problem, but last time I checked, at least here in the UK, even basic science education had become almost an afterthought, let alone a level of education such as that I received 30+ years ago that insisted upon the development of well-structured critical thinking as well as mastery of approrpiate concepts. I'm told it's even worse in the States, in which case God help you all ...

If this post is acquiring more than a little of the aura of some crusty old git waving his walking stick about while fulminating Old Testament style on how the world is going to the dogs and how it was all so much better in the old days, well in some respects it's true - I DID receive a rigorous education, in which the fundamental science subjects were taught separately in their natural divisions, namely biology, chemistry and physics, each supported by a thorough grounding in the necessary mathematics to facilitate due progress - in short, the kind of education that was the result of the flowering of the Enlightenment. The accumulated wisdom of 3,000 years all the way from the pre-Socratics, through the glories of Classical Greece, thence to the Copernican and Newtonian revolutions, through Immanuel Kant and Louis Pasteur among others, thirty centuries of critical data has been, in recent times, more or less tossed into the dustbin in some quarters, frequently by people whose motivations have less to do with inculcating genuine knowledge in their charges and more with the scratching of assorted ideological itches. Against that background, it's hardly surprising that many passing through the education system these days have decided that if their educators can't be bothered to teach them properly, there's not much point in them putting in any effort directed toward something other than the pursuit of instant self-gratification. I believe George Orwell had something to say on this issue ...

Back when I was a child, I was taught substance as opposed to smoke and mirrors image. Along with many others of my generation. Which probably explains why, when we embarked upon fishkeeping, and started by asking ourselves "How do we do this?" then setting to and gathering the knowledge, were pretty successful. Even as a teenager, I had success with such projects as breeding Angel Fishes. Now there are people like me today on this Board, who represent what I was 25 to 30 years ago, but how many of those are the exception rather than the rule?

Ah, this soapbox feels just sooo comfortable.

Well, Fish Patty, you've come here, and asked yourself "What am I doing and why am I doing it?", which is a much bigger step than some have taken in their time. Be prepared for something of a roller coaster ride though, because if there's one thing that the fishkeeping game never ceases to deliver, it's learning experiences and educational surprises.




Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Oh, I love those stories, even though some of the comments & questions could have come from meI! I have read several on the net from people that work at LFS. In a way I don't feel so alone knowing there are other uneducated fish owners out there, but at the same time I would rather start comparing myself to the educated fish owners in order to better myself at this hobby.

Do you have any links to posts or articles from people that work at pet stores?

At the risk of angering many & showing my ignorance, I will also admit that I don't even know what my water parimiters are! I bought a PH test kit & my well water is hard & I knew the fish I would have mostly like soft or neutal water, so I bought a bottle of neutralizer & made it neutral & gradually added fish. Later I read that the reason that my neons died ( other than they are hard to accimilate) was cause they came from Wal-Marts hard water to my neutral. Several articles said that modern fish are used to our harder water so don't even bother to adjust it cause the stuff you buy at the store is worse for them than the hard water & they will do fine in whatever water you have! So confused!

So I just left my water alone other than adding the water conditioner that is good for fish, "Stress Coat", at the beginning & whenever I do a water change. I do have drift wood in there & was considering peat moss ( was reading articles again). But then I read that during the water change I would be adding hard water again & that would temporarily change the PH which is hard on the fish! It said what I should do is have buckets of presoaked peat moss water ready for the water change. And I was wanting to get a python to make water changing easier! Did I hear someone say fish keeping is easy!?

So there you have it folks............ a brief journey into the confused mind of a newbie.

This must look confusing to some Cali............ I was replying to superlion while you were posting your post, so things are a little out of order. I believe I want to comment on your post but computer time is drawing me away from my other duties. I must see about other things right now............ but will come back here when I have more time. I am not as proficient? at writng as you are so it takes me a long time to compose even one post especially since I am trying to write to where it makes sence to the reader. A confused mind must be somewhat carful how it writes. Later....................

Yes Cali, I am going to try to make the fish happy. I already noticed how happy the corys were everytime I added to their numbers. The old one would do a sort of kitty dance on top of the new one & then all around it before settling down side by side.

Though I just have 3 zebra danios right now, they have been spawning since I got them, much to the delight of the other fish which love caviar. Just this am. I noticed my 5 glowlights & two of them were doing the most graceful "dance" together. I assume it was their courting porcedure. Yes, it's nice to watch happy fish.

Wow.......... what an article! Although I believe it is true, I'm not so sure that is much of the reason for our ill fish keeping here. I believe it to be the easy access of the fish here & the many "cute" 1 to 5 gal. containers they sell at the "general store". As the mother passes the fish isle the child crys out to see the fish & after a few more trips she eventually gives in to their wants of a couple of gold fish or a pretty betta. Most of us at some time or other have the extra money for such an extravagance, as we live in a wealthy country here compared to most other countries. Anyway................ there is our first introduction to fish keeping for many of us.

The computer is here now if someone wants to look up about fish keeping............... usually after they have bought the fish. Uh hum! I belong to this group. But in this disposable society of ous, unfortunately the fish fit right in too. I have heard, "Oh well, if they die, I'll just go get some more............. I have the receipt". There are too many other things in this country to keep someones interest other than the fish.

In relation to your post I agree........... in our microwaveable, disposable society, it does not seem to encourage us to excellence in whatever endeavor we choose to undertake. Our educational system.......... I agree with you. Enough said.

In relation to our disposable fishes..............I read that most of the neons we get are still taken directly from the rivers. And that the black red tailed shark is more ar less extinct from the rivers where it lived because of the aquarium trade. That is something to think about. I'm sure many fish are still taken from their natural habitat for our aquariums. I wonder how long that can keep up? And all for our intertainment & our wants. Hmmmm and some people say............. they are just fish. I have said it myself.