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Hi people

Well, I'm into week 5 of my fishless cycling and my water paramaters are:

ammonia 2ppm
nitrIte 4ppm
nitrAte 70ppm

I have now discovered that I have what I think is black hair algae, probably as a result of the high nitrate level. Hard to believe that high nitrate levels would create this. So far, it's only growing only on my malaysian driftwood. I should also mention that I have fake plants, I don't leave my lights on at all, I also haven't done a water change since the beginning of my cycling and only doing the usual water top-ups.

What I think I'll do is once my tank is completely cycled, and I think I'm on the verge of that soon, I'm going to do a massive water change to reduce the nitrates and remove my driftwood and clean it up with a mild bleach solution.

I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions


*Mitch*

I think you raised your levels too high with too much ammonia from the start or are you currently adding more than you did when you began the cycle? You shouldn't still have 2ppm ammonia along with 70nitrate. Normally in a fishless cycle ammonia should peak at around 5ppm and no higher than 8ppm, nitrites should show up and will sometimes reach 20ppm but usually hang around 10ppm for majority of the nitrite portion of the cycle, ammonia should all but dissapear(~.25 left), and nitrates should then show up. Ammonia will drop to zero and nitrites will begin to drop. Nitrates may get high but while your tank is still going to cycle and have a huge bacteria colony by the time it's done your nitrates are going to be well off the chart and it may take some work to get it back to the point it's fish safe and still cycled.

I think your case of a fishless cycle makes using Danios for cycling far easer considering all the problems you are having. Its just my opinion.

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Thanks for your replies Sham and Keith. I have done the cycling with the danios and I must say, eventhough I'm having problems now with the fishless cycle, and that's only because of my impatience, I much prefer this fishless method. I had initially added way too much ammonia. I didn't take the time to let it circulate through the tank before taking readings and just kept adding more and more and then before I knew it the reading was over the 8ppm level. I did several water changes to bring the ammonia down to 5ppm. Needless to say, I really don't know how much ammonia it took to reach the 5ppm level, so since the nitrites began to show I've been adding only 12 to 16 drops of ammonia daily and it has gone down to the 2ppm level. Would you suggest that I stop adding the ammonia completely or just reduce the number of drops, maybe do a water change? Also, is my way of cleaning the driftwood good or bad?

Thanks much!


*Mitch*

If the ammonia is going down then I would keep adding the same amount but do a 25% or so water change now. It won't really interrupt the cycle just help get rid of the excess. Very little bacteria is actually floating around the tank so you won't remove any. To get 70ppm nitrates your tank should be cycled enough for a light stock of fish anyway so you might as well speed it up a little with a water change or 2.

You can scrub the driftwood but driftwood can help carry quite a bit of bacteria especially some more porous woods. Depending on the type and size of the wood you could end up scrubbing away enough bacteria to slow the cycle while not managing to get rid of all the algae. Algae can really get down in the wood and the only way to truly get rid of it is resterilize the wood by boiling or leaving it out in the sun to bake and dry. Your probably better off waiting till the tank is cycled, doing some water changes to lower the nitrates, and remove what algae you easily can. I would scrub any plastic plants and use the gravel vac to suck out or pull by hand the rest that can be easily removed. Remember even if your doing water changes to lower nitrates you still need to dose ammonia preferably after the water change until the day you add fish. Without ammonia the bacteria will die within a day.

I'd definitely take any complications that come with fishless cycle compared to catching and deciding what to do with danios after your done with them.

Thanks so very much Sham! Really appreciate your help


*Mitch*

Just an update. Since my last posting, I did a 25% water change to try and reduce the nitrate level. It didn't seem to make much of a difference. I have been adding my ammonia on a daily basis and I have increased the amount of drops from 12 to 22. The ammonia has not been registering on my test now for almost a week. I did a 75% water change last night, took a reading a few hours later and the readings were:

Ammonia 0
nitrIte 4 to 5ppm
nitrAte 70 to 90ppm

These readings remain constant today. Is it a good idea to continue with the massive water changes every 2 or 3 days? Is there something else that I can do or is this more of a waiting game now?

Thanks much!


*Mitch*

When I first learned of the fishless cycle, the site i read called for adding ammonia only once. You add a few tablespoons when you start you tank up and then just let the magic happen. It takes about a month before everything is good to add fish then you just add them slowly as not to over load the bio filter until it becomes big and strong. I did this with a chiclid tank and it was the most succesful tank I have ever had.

As for the nitrate, the only way that I have had luck reducing them is by water changes. I wasted some money on a nitra-zorb thingie for the filter and it really didnt do anything. I did 50% changes about 3 times a week for a couple weeks and everything leveled out. Hope your tank is doing ok!

Just a thought, have you checked the nitrates of your tap water (or the water you are using for changes)? The 75% change should have brought nitrates much lower...

When I first learned of the fishless cycle, the site i read called for adding ammonia only once

I have to go with bagoegg on this one. When I did my fishless cycling I didn't add ammonia everyday! I think that's an unneccessary step. In fact, I calculated how much ammonia I needed to reach the proper concentration and it took care of it's self.

Once the cycle was complete, when I added approx 1/4 of the original ammonia concentration every-other-week to sustain the cycle. I did this because I didn't stock my tank immediately after my tank was "cycled". I waited two months, just to make sure the levels were all correct and stable. It took patience but I am glad that I did it that way because I had very few problems once I stocked my FW tank

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I did regular water changes after the cycle was complete. I did the water change on Sunday and dosed, when appropiate, the ammonia on Tuesday.

-Josh

Shouldn't you add ammonia once the ammonia levels get down to 0 to ensure that the ammonia-nitrite bacteria stil have something to live off until the nitrites go down and you add fish?

Shouldn't you add ammonia once the ammonia levels get down to 0 to ensure that the ammonia-nitrite bacteria stil have something to live off until the nitrites go down and you add fish?

That's the main idea with fishless cycling. In my experience, it won't decline that fast. There is, of course, fine adjustments that need to be made with the ammonia but nothing too drastic. At most, I dosed with Ammonia every week but, honestly, I don't think it was that often.

When I maintained the cycled tank over the two months I monitored the levels very carefully. I did let the ammonia fall to zero purposely.

I must mention that knowing the concentration of the ammonia you're adding is important. Two drops of concentrated ammonia is going to have a drastically different effect compared to two drops of 5% ammonia.

You want the ammonia level to be zero! The addition of ammonia is suppose to immitate the natural production of ammonia by your livestock. If you have a stocked cycled tank the ammonia should always be zero. That's because the bacteria is breaking-down the ammonia at the same rate it's produced by the livestock.

Therefore, if you continuously maintain an ammonia concentration (lets say 5ppm), you are going to have to increase the amount of ammonia you are adding each time. (This is a result of the increase of bacteria forming) This would increase the concentration of Nitrites and Nitrates, as well. That's why you see levels like 70 ppm.

Ideally, you want to maintain the fishless cycling by directly mimicking the output of your stock. I hope that makes sense. If not, just let me know.

(I'll try to make a little chart that might help explain it a little differently)

-Josh

Thank you all for your comments. Appreciate it!

Bagoegg and Josh, everything I've read and been told is the same that Bonny stated. However, if I understand correctly, because I've been adding the ammonia daily, this has caused my nitrAte levels to skyrocket eventhough my ammonia level remains at 0?
So now, to reduce my nitrAte level, I should stop adding the ammonia and maybe add it only once a week or not add any until the nitrAtes start to lower?? Am I on the right track? Also, continuing with some massive water changes on a regular basis would help, right?

Mitch


*Mitch*

I would:

1. Stop the ammonia addition for a week

2. (Depending on what your schedule allows for) do several water changes over the next week. I would consider doing a 50% water change away and then follow that up with three 30% changes over the next week or week-and-a-half.

3. Monitor your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels very carefully. Make sure that your ammonia level is decreasing! If it's not then we might have to do some drastic things. I have had the situation when I fishless cycled the first time (many many moons ago), that there was too much ammonia in the tank for the bacteria to form. Lets hope that's not the case!

4. Once your ammonia is at zero, then your nitrites should follow in suit. Then add a small amount of ammonia each week.

I would not suggest gravel vacuuming the entire surface area! This would get rid of your bacteria! (I don't know what else you might have in the aquarium) You might consider only vacuuming 10% each time.

That's my 3 cents for now.

-Josh

Hi Josh

Much thanks for your 3 cents! Worth every penny I'll be following your instructions and keep you posted

Mitch


*Mitch*

I'm glad I could help

-Josh

The problem with weekly ammonia addition is that on day 1 you will have lots of ammonia say 5ppm and the bacteria are going to have tons of food leading to a population explosion. Bacteria die very very quickly with no food though so by day 6 or 7 they are going to start to die out because the ammonia will get used up. Then you add it again and they explode again. You end up with a perpetual cycle that leaves your tank only half as stable as dosing daily. In a normally stocked tank you would have zero ammonia because the fish constantly excrete it at a set amount and the bacteria constantly use it at a set amount. The population is stable and the tank is stable. Dosing daily is suppose to mimic the amount the fish excrete in a given day and while it's not perfect should create a tank just as stable as one that is stocked normally with fish. The difference is when you cycle with fish you add a few hardy fish that will keep the ammonia levels low while still feeding the bacteria and slowly increase it. With fishless cycling we start out basically fully stocking a tank. We add the amount of ammonia the tank will need to use when completely stocked with fish. If you add that amount daily you will overwhelm the bacteria, their population will actually slow down, your tank will take months to cycle, and you'll end up with nitrates well off the chart. To compensate we measure the initial amount we added to reach a given stocking level ie 5ppm. Then once the bacteria are established and that 5ppm is used up we add it daily to simulate a fully stocked tank and wait for it to cycle. You don't dose to reach 5ppm everyday you dose the amount it took to reach 5ppm the first time with no bacteria in the tank. Dosing once a week works for the first week and a half or until nitrates show up but after that the bacteria are going to use up the ammonia within the first day or 2 and then starve themselves out over the next 5-6days causing a less cycled and less stable tank. A fishless cycle is complete when 24hours after you added the ammonia there are no ammonia or nitrites left in the water. At that point you are suppose to do a large water change or 2 to lower nitrates and then add your fish within 24hours of the last dose of ammonia. Normally water changes are not needed because ammonia never tops 5-6ppm, nitrites stay within range, and nitrates usually finish at around 100ppm.

When the cycle gets messed up with too high of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates then the tank will take several more weeks to cycle and may even stop cycling. At around 8ppm ammonia or 20+ nitrites the bacteria actually stop multiplying. That's probably what started to happen in this tank. I've gotten a few stuck like that before. To get it jump started again you have to do a water change and then continue to add ammonia like usual. If the ammonia tests 3ppm or higher 24hours after dosing I would wait another 24hours before dosing again because there will still be enough ammonia to feed the bacteria. If it's less than 3ppm dose again and wait another 24hours before the next dose of ammonia. Within a week or less it should be finished cycling provided you add the correct amount of ammonia every day. When there is no ammonia or nitrites after 24hours do a big water change to eliminate the nitrates and add fish. But continue to dose ammonia daily up until the day before you want to add fish or the bacteria will starve within 12-24hours of having no food source.

Thank you for replying Sham. Great information! Here's where I am now. I did a massive water change on Friday night. My readings after the change were:

Ammonia 0
NitrItes .50
NitrAtes 10 to 20

I haven't added any ammonia since Friday so it's possible that all my bacteria has died off. Took a reading this morning and everything was at 0. I immediately added 10 drops of ammonia. Took a reading several hours later and everything is still at 0. I'll keep adding my 10 drops of ammonia daily and if everything keeps registering at 0 for a week, I guess I can safely assume that my tank has cycled. If the Ammonia starts to register then that would mean I'm back at square one

Here's hoping for the best



*Mitch*

I do believe I'm done! Cycling that is!!! After monitoring my tank and dosing with ammonia daily, my readings since my last posting have consistently been:
0 ammonia
0 nitrIte
trace nitrAte

This past Sunday, I added 8 redeye tetras that have been waiting patiently for this day. They've been in a 10g quarantine tank since I started this whole process.

Since Sunday, I've been taking daily readings and everything has stayed the same.

I'll be slowly adding to my stock, perhaps with some tiger barbs or rasboras and maybe a krib or bolivian ram.

Thanks to all that helped me along the way, and an especially big thank you to Sham





*Mitch*