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So, here I am with a bucket and a jug of hydrochloric acid ... The water is ph 7.4, kh 8 and gh 10 out of the tap. At this point I'm a wee bit sick of using RO water and hoping that fish with low ph parameters will "eventually adjust" but never breed. I'm thinking if I get just the right proportions, the kh should drop to 4 (still stable) and there should be a ph drop that beats the .2ph drop that bubbling in co2 seems to give. No fish will be harmed in the process of this tinkering... any predictions on outcome?

Hi,
I would not use the hydrochloric acid.
There are two products that you can use to raise the pH
of water.
One,for swimming pools and spas is called pH UP and
is very dangerous.

http://www.growthtechnology.com/msds-phup.asp

Another option is API pH UP which is specifically
formulated for aquarium use:
http://cms.marsfishcare.com/files/msds/phup_2452.pdf

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

My protection is you will end up with dead/sick fish and you may kill your bio coloney at the very least, causing you tank to cycle again with a full bio load and then you will end up with dead/sick fish. Stick with products that are safe for the fish. I have used Ph Down, but found it to be a daily duty. In my large tanks I use Co2 injected systems to lower the Ph. In tanks 40us gal or less I use seachem product lines and only have to use them once a week during water changes. Also, Driftwood will lower you ph not alot and not quickly but it will. My water comes in at 8.9 so we are in the same boat, and I do have spawning on reg. bases. Why not buy a small R/O system for yourself. I have found over the years if you can afford to buy these units, in the long run you will save money. Buffers and additives add up over time.

Just remember anything you put in the tank a trace among will always be there until you break down a tank and start over.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Ditto on the Seachem. My tap is 8.6. A little Acid Buffer with each WC and all is well. Not expensive either.

Maybe I'm missing something Frank, I'm looking to drop the ph, but the product consists of sodium carbonate and water... won't this raise the ph and displace the GH causing a false softer reading, while pickling my fish?

Djrichie, hydrochloric acid diluted extremely doesn't have toxic effects... I know of a few people who have used it with success (one being a cichlid breeder who opened his own store recently). Mopani wood leeches out eventualy and didn't seem to bump the water down more than 0.1ph, co2 at safe levels only 0.2. The ph buffers commonly available seem to do a wonderfull job of releasing phosphates causing an algae bloom. Even with RO water and all of these things, including peat filtering, 1/4 tap and 3/4 RO won't drop the ph much below 7, and it's a lot of work to do all that. The apisto's I would ideally like to keep breed at around 6-6.5 ph.

... I may pop one of the jugs today and give it a try. The plan is to work out how much I'll have to add to drop ph various ammounts, test all parameters, then, when all is clear, let a feeder guppy test the water for a while.

Seachem Acid Buffer is phosphate free.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4124

Been using Seachem for years never a phos. problem, that why I recomended a named product, to just saying buff the water. Mopani wood is very hard and release very little if any tannis into the water, I was think more of the line regular DW, I also seid it was a very slow process. A lot of this hobby is waiting.

I know you feel, you can handle the water chemistry, If this was the early 80's, I might agree with you, what a litlle acid between friends. My thoughts are more along the lines you don't know how much to put in...ie killing the fish. You seid you know I guy who did this in your area, why don't you ask him. He has the same water as you and as you say he done it before, so why not just ask him to show you. Thats what I'd do.

For the experience side of things..... If your breeding fish to sell, to LFS and maybe online. You want the water the fish live in to be as simple and clean as possible or when you ship them the water type change with the stress that is naturally there, your death rate will be high.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Hi,
Naw, you weren't missing anything. I was. Early in
the morning and no coffee, and still asleep. I must
stop misreading what is written late at night and
early in the mornings.

Driftwood leaches tannic acid into the water, but it is
not permanent, and starts out with large amounts of acid
and slowly tapers off as a "weathering rind" builds up
within the wood.

pH Down works, but frankly that commits you to permanent
purchases of chemicals, really regular water changes, and
you need to be careful with the dosing. Premixing the
replacement water is sometimes necessary. If your tap water
is hard (upper 7s maybe 8s) and you are keeping your tank
in the 6's you should not dump the replacement tap water
into the tank and then add the pH Down, that sudden "jolt"
of really different pH can stress sensitive fish.

Cycling water through a "peat moss "filter"" will lower the
pH. Add a second filter filled with peat moss and the
output of that filter returning to the tank will lower
the pH and at the same time color the water yellow moving
toward brown, like a tea.

In each case the amount of chemical, or effect of the
driftwood or the amount of peat moss, will depend upon the
KH, buffering capacity of the water. The higher the KH
the more you will have to add, or the slower the effect.

Practically speaking, the best way is to use RO or Distilled
water to dilute your tap water. Again, finding the right
mix, will depend upon how low you want to go, and the KH
of the water. Only you will be able to determine the
final mix 1 gallon RO to 3 gallons tap, or whatever.

Sorry for the bum read...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--