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It's been a while since I last set up my 10 gallon tank. I got my 20 gallon tank about 3 or days ago. To help speed up the biological process, I put feeder goldfish in the tank (they have been gone since yesterday afternoon), plants from the 10, a rainbow rock that had massive algae growth on it from the 10, some water from the 10, and I added aqua safe. Yesterday I added 1 ounce of biosphere which is good up to 30 gallons and it is suppose to provide bacteria for the biological process, it was about $15 US, they kept it in a fridge at the LFS. Currently, the only thing I have in the 20 is 1 Blue Mystery Snail, 1 Gold Snail and water plants for living things. I noticed that the nitrite got high yesterday around 0.8 mg/l reading. Today it got to 1.6 mg/l reading. So tonight I took the filter cartigage from my 10 gallon and shook it around in the 20 so a lot of crap from it from it went into the 20. I also added a little bit more water from the 10. So how long do you think till this nitrite spike is gone? I'm kind of anxious to take my existing fish from the 10 and put them in the 20.

No one can tell you when it will stop spiking but everything you done so far will only shave a week maybe off the process. You gave it a good start but it still take time to build up. If the filter match put the dirty filter on the new tank. If it doesn't cut it up and put it in the filter. These will speed up the process. the best thing you could have done was add 50% of the old gravel to the tank. I would break down that 10 to quick, you have established tank sitting there, think about what you can put in it.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Is nitrite bad for all living things or just some fish or all fish? And does invertebrates get effected by nitrite? Such as freshwater mussels, snails and shrimp?

I know that when I was cycling my 20g with fish, once I got my nitrite spike, I had 2ppm Nitrites for probably three weeks. One day, they were gone and the tank was cycled. I had no idea they would just poof like that but in my case they did. I have been Nitrite free for over a week now.

Here is a link to my water parameters:

http://www.fishprofiles.com/logbooks/analysis.aspx

You can go in there and look at various aspects of my tanks parametersn, just dont change any values lol.
I have been keeping track since I started the tank on May 28th, 2007. Also, it's important to note that I was treating for Ich during the last 6 weeks of the cycling process. The 25% WC I was doing every three days per the directions on the meds, and the addition of 4 Tiger Barbs at once undoubtedly slowed the cycling process.

Through this experience, I learned alot about cycling and Ich treatment. You have got to be patient with both. Unfortunately my learning came at the expense of some Tiger Barbs. I lost a total of 6 fish I believe. I was finally able to save two. I recently added 3 small albino TB's to the two I had left, now that the tank is cycled and Ich free.

Good luck!

Very rarely can you accomplish an instant cycle. Even adding things from another tank and the various boosters for bacteria you still usually have at least a few weeks with a small cycle. You'll just have to wait it out. It shouldn't last long. Probably less than a week. Nitrites can kill inverts just like fish. Some inverts are a bit hardier than others. Applesnails will usually survive a cycle but watch for them to be closed up in their shells for extended periods of time. If they don't come out and move around the water quality is probably off and you need to do a water change. Pest snails are nearly impossible to kill and will survive insane ammonia levels. Most shrimp will start to die within 24hours at any testable ammonia and nitrite. Some will be dead pretty much instantly if there is even a tiny ammonia spike. Clams or mussels are close to shrimp. They won't withstand much ammonia or nitrite for very long.

Well I just recently spent big bucks on a King Tiger Pleco and Zebra Chocolate Pleco or at least I think it is, the ppl at the LFS weren't sure either so they gave me a 20% discount.

So out of all my current fish, my cheapest ones for price are Neon Tetras, Black Neon Tetras and Ottos. Right now like I said I only have the 2 different types of apple snails and water plants in the 20 gallon and it's nitrite is still high. Should I add any of those cheaper fish or would that be a very bad idea and I should just wait? Also should I do any water changes right now with the 20 or no?

Yes! My nitrite went down. It's hard to tell what level it is at though. It is either the 0.3 mg/l or 0.8 mg/l or inbetween that. Is this level safe to initially add fish slowly at a time in the tank since the nitrite will be going down?

Nvm now. I added 6 neons earlier today. Now I checked my nitrite levels, they are at the lowest reading. So my tank is cycled! Very fast I believe. I just got to add fish to the 20 slowly at a time though to avoid mini cycles. Because though it is cycled, it isn't as established as my 10.

Hi,
You really need to get a grip on what is happening and slow
down. You are acting like a bull in a china shop, and
certainly not paying any attention to the advice you are
being given.

Have you even read anything on the Nitrogen Cycle? Do you
understand what you are reading? In the FAQ area at the
top of the page is an article on the Nitrogen Cycle, what
it is, how it works, and how to set the tank up so that it
will cycle. In this case it uses fish to provide THE
essential element for the cycle, Ammonia.
Here is the link to the article:

http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp

Fish-less Cycling:
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html

When you filled the 20 tank with water, gravel, and plants
you then shook out the 10 gallon tank's filter to provide
a culture of the necessary bacteria. That is good, and a
normal practice. It jump starts the beginning of the
Nitrogen Cycle by placing mature bacteria colonies in the
new tank. But, what were they going to feed off of? You
had two snails in the tank and that was it. You had an
initial nitrite level but that has dropped off. Not due to
the Nitrogen Cycle maturing but because there was nothing
in the tank for the bacteria to eat...There was no ammonia!
Most of your culture has died from lack of food.

Now you say that simply because the nitrite level has
dropped, that the tank is fully cycled and ready for fish.
That is anything BUT the truth. A tank is cycled only when
the ammonia AND nitrite read ZERO. If you get any reading
of either, and you have not mentioned ammonia levels in any
of your postings here, (are you even measuring the ammonia
level?) your tank has not cycled.

Your last post also brightly announces that you have
purchased 6 neon tetras and put them in the new 20.
Neons are among the most sensitive fish, and among the
worst to put in a cycling tank. I hope they survive.

The two Plecos you have purchased grow to 4-5 inches in
length and are very sensitive fish. Now, you have them
crammed in the 10 gallon tank and it will take nearly a
month for the 20 to cycle. You purchased them too soon,
you should have waited.

Tiger:
http://www.timstropicals.com/FreshwaterFish/Catfish/TigerPleco.asp

Chocolate Zebra:
http://www.timstropicals.com/Inventory/Catfish/ChocolateZebraInfo.asp

You need to take the neons out and put them also, in the 10
gallon tank. Read about the two ways to cycle a tank, and
remember, it can take up to a month to cycle one. Decide
which method to use and start cycling the 20 gallon tank,
correctly. Make daily checks of the ammonia, nitrite, and
nitrate and record the values. Watch as the ammonia
peaks and then drops off as the nitrite starts to show up
and then peak as the nitrate starts to show up and then
climb. Only when the ammonia, and nitrite is ZERO is the
tank cycled.
Slow down, read, learn, ask questions, and enjoy the
fish and hobby. If you don't, you will progress from
one disaster to another, killing off fish as you go
and wasting your money.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I know it would take more time, about a month or more if I had bought a new tank and nothing to add to it from an existing tank. So to speed up things. I took some water from the 10 and put it in the 20, I took a rainbow rock that had long hair algae growing on it in the 20, I put driftwood from the 10 into the 20, I put most plants from the 10 in the 20, and added 2 apple snailes, and for about 2 days I had 5 huge comet gold fish in there till I gave them away. When it was only the apple snails, I put in 1 algae wafer a day. I took the filter media from the 10 and shook it in the 20 so some crap stuff fell in the 20. Then I also bought $15 of 1 ounce of Bio Spira which is good for up to 30 gallon tank.

So the 20 has been running for 8 days and now 9 counting today.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/millennium.html Here is the filter I have in the 20 which is meant for up to 40 gallon tanks. It is an air valve thing that helps air into the filter, it's noisy but I have left that on. Just click the link for more info on it. It pumps 160 GPH. I have it on max setting but I can adjust to go on a lower setting but I have it on max.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/airmaster1.html This is the air pump I use for the undergravel filter. It is meant for 40 gallon tank and so it pumps a lot of air in the 20. I have at max setting it is adjustable so it can put in a lower setting.

I can't find the undergravel filter I have. But it is similar to the ones on that link, same company but mine instead of having the two tubes on the side, in the center it pumps up bubbles with no 2 side tubes but in a different kind of plastic container. It uses both carbon and zeolite cartridges. Those bubbles look like they are coming from a bubble wall but it's not a regular bubble wall since it is an undgergravel filter. wall.http://www.aquariumguys.com/aquarium-undergravel-filters.html

I also have kept the temp at 80 degrees fahrenheit.

Measuring water parameters today I have Nitrite at <0.3 mg/l which is the lowest reading on the test kit.

The ammonia reading is ambiguous. With it's color, it looks closest to 0.25 mg/l which is the second lowest reading, but it looks like it could between between 0.25 mg/l and 1.5 mg/l which is the next highest reading. On the test paper it says 0 mg/l is ideal conditions. 0.25 mg/l is toxic if present for extended periods of time-extremely toxic to marine invertebrates. For 1.5 mg/l reading it says highly toxi if present even for short periods of time. For 3 mg/l reading it says fatal for sensitive fish species. At 5 mg/l it says fatal for all fish species.

I measured ph now, now the water at my house isn't 7.0 but at college it is, that's where the fish will spend the vast majority of their time. ph in the 20 is 8.0 and so I added Wardley's Bullseye 7.0. http://www.petco.com/product/4156/Wardley-Bullseye-pH-Adjusters.aspx

Those neon tetras from the 10 gallon, didn't recently buy them. So should I put them back in the 10 and put in a more hardier fish in the 20? Also those plecos I got are very small at the moment, especially that chocolate zebra pleco if that is what I did buy. So they definitely aren't at full size. 5.5 inches for the King Tiger and 4.5 inches for the Chocolate zebra.

Hi,
Thanks for responding. Let's see if we can't get this tank
up and running and perhaps clear up some possible
misconceptions along the way...

First, while they make all sorts of chemicals to do just
about everything in a tank, you really don't want to start
using them. Very nearly everything can be done naturally,
without the huge outlays of $$$.
You don't need the bio-spira. If you are going to use
fish to seed the tank, then purchase a few hardy fish,
preferably those that the LFS will take back in credit
for fish that you actually want. Some live bearers, or
some zebra dainos, etc, are hardy fish that will survive
the rigors of cycling a tank. The BEST way, IMO is to do
the fish-less cycling (See the link I gave you in my first
post). Fish-less cycling is obviously more humane as it
does not subject fish to the painful stress of large
amounts of ammonia or nitrite. Both ammonia and nitrite
will scar the fish's gills and in quantity can suffocate
the fish.

As far as the HOB filter that you have I would cap off the
air inlet. As you say, it is very noisy, and the splatter
from the breaking bubbles will strike the hood assembly
where the light is, and can cause corrosion and condensate
as the water evaporates. I'd cut the flow back as well.
First, you don't have any fish in it, and second, you don't
need to turn the tank over 8 times an hour. Later on, as
you increase the bio-load (number of fish in the tank) you
may want to "crank up" the filter toward its higher flows.

A UGF is an excellent filter and one that can cause quite
a stir as far as folks who like and swear by them to folks
to swear at them. In either case, yours is installed so
I'd use it. Most of us who use UGFs (myself included) use
a power head on them instead of an air pump. Power heads
are small water pumps that sit inside the UGFs "riser tube"
and draw water from the filter through the pump and back
into the tank. These are extremely effective, move a good
amount of water, and are noiseless. Also, the air stone
that you currently using will eventually become caked in
bacteria, the pores of the stone clog and it will cease to
work. The wooden air "stones" made of lime-wood are better
than the stones themselves, but they too clog and have to
be replaced. I'd urge you to look into a power head.
I use one similiar to this and the cone end sits inside the
riser:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4628&N=2004+113040
They also make RUGFs (Reverse Under Gravel Filters) where
the pump pumps water into the riser instead of out of it.

The cartridges that you have inserted into the UGF riser
are next to useless. They contain such small amounts of
material that they are rapidly saturated, within days, and
cease to do anything. IMO, they are a total waste of $$.

There is not much sense in keeping the tank at 80 degrees.
Even with fish in the tank you would want the tank
temperature to hover between 76 and 78 degrees. The only
time you will need to increase the temperature is if you
have some disease in the tank and the medications indicate
that you should also increase the tank temperature.

The test strips that you are using are really not good for
much. They give general readings and are terribly inaccurate.
The strips are affected by exposure to light, heat, and
moisture. They have a finite shelf life even if they are
kept under optimum conditions. I would urge you to replace
them with a kit such as this:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4454&N=2004+114130

This is the kit I use. You fill the vial to a marked point
and then add the chemical a drop at a time, at the point
where it changes color from one color to another is your
reading. These kits should be stored in a cool, dry place,
but last much longer than the strips and are not as
susceptible to the environment as the strips are.

As far as the pH of the tank is concerned, unless you are
dealing with fish fresh from the streams in the jungle
(wild caught) every fish you might purchase is from a fish
farm, generally in Florida. They are many generations removed
from those streams and are used to water that is very close
to your current water. The main thing is to maintain a
consistent pH and not have it fluctuating all over the place.
Again, you don't need the chemical Wardleys' Bullseye 7.0.

Two things... Draw a clean glass of water from your tap
and allow it to sit out for 24 hours (no kitty or dog spit
added) and then test the water. The delay allows the water
to degas and settle in, so to speak. Test it after 24 hours
and see what your water is.
With a tank pH of 8, you may have something other than
quartz based aquarium gravel. Or you may have rocks in the
tank that are carbonates and they are raising the pH to the
8.0 value (if that is indeed what it is with those strips).
Many of us on this site are successfully breeding fish that
should be in lower pH, softer water, in water that is around
8.0. Keep the pH constant and you will evade most of the
problems that folks have with fish keeping. Also, over
time, as organic compounds build up within your tank
organic acids will start to shift your pH downward.

Decide how you are going to cycle the tank and then wait.
Test daily for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. The tank
will cycle in a month or less. Remember, it is not cycled
until the ammonia and nitrite BOTH read zero. Then, and
only then, is it safe to start adding your prized fish.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

The guy at another LFS said that Neon Rainbows (Melanotaenia praecox) are hardy and that I use those for cycling. Also how hardy are clown loaches? I have 2 very small ones, I know they will outgrow the tank and when that happens I will return them to the LFS for store credit.

As for cycling the tank, I'd want to avoid doing the fish less cycle since it is the slowest method. I tested the nitrite now, it is definitely the same color as the test card, it read 0.25 mg/l. Also I don't use test stripes. I use this test kit, the one at the top of the page. http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~pond_products_test_kits_tetrapond.html. I'm missing the cards for Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity (KH) and General Hardness (GH) so I can't test those ones. With my 10 gallon tank, I established that one at college. So while it was there, I always got 7.0 ph. When I brought my 10 to home for this summer, I was getting 8.0 ph. As for the undergravel filter I have, it has a plastic piece that snapes into place where the bubbles come out, I can take that out and take a pen or needle to clear out any junk in there if it gets clogged up. The guy at the LFS said the zeolite and carbon cartages only need to be changed once a month.