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My first hiccup since establishing my 75.

Params:
pH 6.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 15
Phosphate 0.35 (Edit - typo!)

I had the flu and slacked a bit on cleaning my tank. I watched my pH and Nitrates to make sure things were in check. Nitrates never reached more than 40 and all seemed well. In a different thread I mentioned that my water was slightly cloudy a few weeks ago. It turned greenish (not bad) and I noticed some red algae. I did a few 30% WCs over the last week. I ran my range of tests and found the above params. The only thing out of the ordinary is that I found a mystery snail dead which could contribute to the nitrite. Any clues on elevated phosphates? I now have phosphate absorbing media in my filters. I'm hoping reducing the phosphates will reduce the algae. My plants are doing well.

Look at your fert schedule, also look at the water source.

Also I see no memtion of the tanks stocking. One dead snail shouldn't cause a nitrate spike.

How long are you running your lights? Running them to long with over ferting will cause and aglea bloomm which will cause green cloudy water.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

Hi,
Elevated phosphates can be caused by your fish food.
It can come from your water supply, and it can come
from poor aquarium maintenance practices.

Check the amount of phosphate in your fish foods, and
if necessary switch foods.
Check your tap water, after sitting 24 hours to degas
and see what the reading is. Consult your local water
company if you think that may be a problem.

Do regular water changes and include vacuuming the
substrate at the same time.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I have local natives - bluegills, etc. I don't use any fertilizers for my plants. My acid buffer is phosphate free. I haven't changed foods - Hikari Cichlid Food and Carnivore Pellets. Photo period is only 7 hrs (9 if I want to view longer). There is no direct sunlight but it is in a bright room with plenty of indirect light. Water temp is 74F.

The phosphates are what got my attention. I checked them for a while after setting up the tank and they were always minimal so I stopped. It is now 0.35 (edit) ppm even after three 30% WCs in a week so it may be tap water related. I'll check the tap as well as my 29. I use the same water for WCs. It could have slowly built-up over time and algae was the eventual result.

Well, two weeks of changing 30% every 72 hrs and phosphates are still climbing. WCs clear the tank a bit but clouds up green in a day or 2.

Temp 74F
pH 6.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
Phospate 0.6

(Typo in my original post. Phosphate was 0.35 Sorry!)

I tested my tap tonight and there was no sign of phosphate. I'll test again after letting it sit for 24 hrs.

I purchased some phosphate absorbing media but it is very expensive and doesn't solve the problem. I'm a bit concerned about my fish now. WCs aren't helping with normal gravel cleaning.

Very Strange indeed......

It has to be something in the tank.... You say no ferts, tested the water source and found 0 phos.. It has to be a decoration or something else you have in the tank....

I know this would be a big burdan but could you list everything thing you have in the tank, filter, gravel stones everything. If you not adding it, than either someone else is or it leaching from something. I ask this of you because maybe someone here can see something your missing.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

I would think that if it were food related, it would trend with the nitrates & maintenance so here's a list of what's in my tank. Everything is natural - no painted decorations, gravel, fake rock or wood, etc.

approx 25 lb mopani wood
6 misc plants - 1 4 month old plant is still in the plastic container w/ sponge & possible ferts and some of the plants have lead weights
3 rocks approx 6" - unknown type - purchased from LFS
1 25 lb rock - unknown type - purchased from LFS
600 gph biowheel canopy - essentially 4 150gph biowheels. It has 4 approx 5x10" size D cartridges and media baskets.
600 gph koralia power head
4 mystery snails
3 8" local native fish

The filter cartridges are large and I usually wash them a couple of times a month until the floss starts coming apart. I had the media baskets full of carbon which is alot. I read carbon is a possible source of phosphate so I will be eliminating that variable first. I've made my own cartridges without carbon.

I was doing some research online regarding phospate control and found some interesting stuff. I don't think phosphate reducing media is not a solution but I found some more reasonably priced - Phosguard.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/PhosGuard_faq.html
"Although some manufacturer’s claim that their aluminum oxide based phosphate removing products can be regenerated by intense heat, this is, unfortunately, not the case. That claim is based on a naive interpretation of the information provided by manufacturers of bulk aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide is more commonly used in gas purification to remove volatile organics and moisture; heating the material after such use will release the non-covalently adsorbed compounds. However, heat cannot result in phosphate release from aluminum oxide due to a difference in the nature by which phosphates are bound to aluminum oxide versus adsorbed gases."

It is also claimed on the Seachem site that aluminum oxide will not release phosphates back into the water... (edit)

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Pic/article.cfm?aid=269
"Most phosphate comes from three sources: tap water, fish food, and carbon"

http://www.athiel.com/lib3/phos.htm
Some Internal Reasons
high fish and/or coral population in the aquarium,
plant material that dies off and mineralization,
breakdown of undigested food in feces,
bacterial die-off and its decomposition and mineralization,
algal die-off and its decomposition and mineralization,
any other living material that dies, decomposes,
fish slime (and coral slime in reef tanks) that decomposes (cfr Thiel)

Some External Reasons
Overfeeding and the decay of the food that is not consumed,
Phosphate in the water you are using,
Phosphate present in the salt you use to make up water,
Additives that contain it,
Carbon that leaches phosphate into the water,
Calcium hydroxide of low quality used to make limewater,
Phosphate based chelators in additives (cfr Thiel)
Phosphates in buffering compounds,
Using frozen foods and adding the liquid after it thaws, to the tank (cfr Thiel),
Using low grade calcium carbonate in calcium reactors (cfr Knop)

Hopefully found the source.

I took out my media baskets yesterday. After drying for 24 hrs, they had 1.1 lbs of carbon in them! I spent a few extra bucks for "pH stable, phosphate free, laboratory-quality activated carbon." I figured you couldn't use too much carbon in an effort to have clear water. One of the things I read was not to trust products when it came to phosphates.

Well, the tank is carbon free and I did a 30% WC. I added a cup of Kent Marine "Phosphate Sponge" (aluminum oxide) and after only 4 hrs phosphates are down to 0.1 ppm. I'll check again tmro before removing. Hopfully it doesn't shoot back up!

I also removed a couple of the smaller rocks to make gravel cleaning easier while I hunt the source.

Edit - Phosphates barely detectable after 12 hrs ~ .03

Removed the media.

This sounds familiar....

http://www.aquariumsecrets.com/carbon_phosphates.htm

Not trying to bump...

It's been about 36 hrs since my last WC, removal of carbon and phosphate. I have my photo period down to 6 hrs right now. I do not have the tank covered and it gets some indirect light still. It is starting to clear up!

I know WCs will remove the algae faster but it will also remove phoshates and I want to see what their levels do over the next week or two. I like to learn as much as possible from my mistakes. Will a tank clear of algae without WCs? How long? Will the dying algea cause the phospates to jump? If the nitrates and phosphates climb, I'll go ahead and start sequential WCs again until it clears.

Reading you lastest posts.... I getting the feeling you not understanding the reason for WC's. WC should be performed weekly, the smaller the tank the more inportant it is to make sure you preform it faithfully. WC remove not just the visible, but all the the unseen waste that fish and palnts produce. You may want to think of it as a big fish toilet. You wouldn't swim in your toilet, after using it, let alone after a week without flushing it. In nature most lakes,ponds (not man made) have a flow of fresh water flowing into and out of it which removes the waste and chemicals from the body of water, deluting it to safe levels. In a closed system (ie fish tank) we have to preform this act by water changes, which remove these dangerous chemicals. There is a system to this to keep the good bateria, you should only vac. 1/4 of the gravel at any give WC, just make sure you change it each time. This removes solid waste as will as the good bio materials but leaves enough so they recover quickly a keep a more natural eco system in the tank. Every thing you add to your tank is in your tank. So if you add buffers to the water a year from now, some of those buffers will be in that tank until you break it down and replace all the water. I feel that if you change to weekly WC you will see a great improvment in your tank and the health of your fish.

Djrichie
"So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish" Douglas Adams

I've been doing a 30% WC every week for months to keep the nitrates under 20. I missed one due to flu and my cloudy water turned green which lead me to finding phos, etc.

I haven't done a WC since removing the phos 4 days ago. I plan to test tonight and if there is still no phos, I'll assume it was due to the carbon overload and start doing sequential WCs to clear the water. It's still pretty green.

I have noticed that there is very little attached algae in the tank so the reduced light and phos seems to be having an effect. Plants are still fine.

I edit my last post - the "36 since my last WC" is hrs not days. Maybe that was misleading.

This is getting interesting. The phosphates are back and my tank looks terrible. The longest I have gone in nearly a month without a 30% WC is 4 days. Nitrates are down to under 5ppm yet phosphates have climbed back up to .25. Attached algae is growing again also.

I can control it with phospate sponge but I'd really like to learn the source. I'm running out of ideas. It can't be overfeeding or lack of maintenance or the nitrates wouldn't be so low.

Hi,
Take a look at this site:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/phosphates.htm

I believe your answer is within the "Causes" section.
You will have to look at your tank, and go through each
of the causes, or maybe combination of causes, till you
hit on the answer.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Here is the list from your link:

+uneaten food
+plant decay
+dying algae
+fish feces
+dead fish - none
** any of these would also raise nitrates (correct me if I'm wrong) which is steady at 5 ppm or less with my current 24 - 72 hr 30% WC schedule
+carbon filter media - none - removed
+aquarium salts - none used
+pH buffers - using Seachem Acid Buffer - phos free
+kH buffers - none used
+water itself - tested tap fresh and after 24 hrs - none detected. I'll test my WC water = Tap + Acid Buffer + Aqueon Conditioner.

If I keep Kent Phos Sponge in the tank it is zero and the tank begins to clear. If I remove the sponge, it climbs rapidly and turns cloundy / green.

The only variables I can change are:

1) Acid buffer - I would have to adjust the fish to my tap pH of 8.6 - currently 7.2 in the tank.
2) Plants - expendable
3) Mopani wood - nothing I've read makes me believe it could cause phos
4) Change food - using Hikari

I hope you see why I am confused. I'd like nothing more than to have someone find something I am doing wrong. Like I said previously, I found a relatively economical way to control phos but I really don't think it's due to my feeding & maintenance schedule.

I am using a Salifert PO4 test. I've read that test kits only detect inorganic phos and not the total phos. Is it possible my tap contains phos that my test isn't picking up?

Edit - I didn't find the "high" phos until my tank clouded green. 1) Is .5 phos too high? 2) My room is brightly lit with indirect sunlight. I have made sure there is no direct light on the tank. The days are getting longer and the green water only showed up recently. Am I chasing a ghost here with regards to phos?

Hi,
Take a look at the ingredients of the pH Up.
It's a phosphate.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=75

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--