FishProfiles.com Message Forums

(Little do they know that I, the Protist Collaborator, introduced that mutant form they are rushing to fight... MUAHAHAHAHAHA! )

But seriously, maybe Jersey water is bad for fish tanks and for supporting life in general, but it's the best tasting water in the country... most of the time...

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Back in the saddle!

So what is really going on with LF??

Bad algae issues = no posting?

I am lost!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

My brother has the red sea CO2 and I like it fine, the Hagen is also sturdy and hangs easily on the tank, I could get a second bottle for it or maybe get the turbo bottle and see how it goes with a bigger bottle.

Fish still dropping, lost that danio yesterday and another looks bad today, the last oto is clinging to the front glass as if to say "Get me outta here!"

Because of the meds in the water I'm not sure if I should do a water change or not. I could always estimate what I took out and re-dose accordingly, then I would feel better about the water in the tank. I took the peat out and the fish all look fine except the one danio. But each time one passes, another falls prey to whatever is lurking in the tank.


Nowhereman6 that's just not nice, you call them back right now!

Wherever LF is let's hope he is well, I still have a few things to say to him about messing with my mind though, and my tank! Although if he really wanted to come mess with my tank I wouldn't mind, I see what he can do with Jersey water, I wonder what he could do with Edmonton water?!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Time for a little update. I have discovered the probable source of my fish woes. My brother, in perfectly innocent intent, gave me some frozen bloodworms, which I began feeding to my fish intermittantly. No fish were dying before they started getting that as a food source. I was at Big Al's today and I was told the bloodworms can give fish worms and other parasites. I bought some frozen mysis cubes and have tossed the last 2 cubes of bloodworms. I will continue to dose the tank for a full run, and I will do water changes as necessary to keep good water conditions. I picked up some Prazipro for roundworms and will do a run of it as well.
While I was there I also got two stealth heaters, one for each tank and looked at the Red Sea Turbo CO2 kit. I decided to stick with the Hagen for now and give it a good try before changing to something else. I went to Superpet Clearance and bought a second Hagen kit for the 10 gallon. It is waiting for 24 hrs for bubbles to appear. I switched out the batch in the other canister and now have a much better bubble rate. I think with the smaller canister I may have to do weekly changes to keep the CO2 level steady, after only one week the bubbles had slowed down tremendously. It's not like the yeast or sugar I'm using are really expensive or anything. Making it up in a 1L bottle and letting it sit 24 hrs really helps as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Were the kept frozen at all times? I've feed my fish frozen bloodworms for years without any problems.





My Scapes

I couldn't say as it was my brother's before he gave them to me. I kept it frozen all the time.
The fish are responding to treatment, the otos have unclamped their fins in the 10g, the oto in the 25 is still alive as is the danio in the 25 I thought was next to go. Treatment will continue for a full week of the mela-fix and pima-fix, which is almost done and possibly 2 weeks of the metro. With water changes when needed of course.

I bought some more new plants, a small bunch of lilaeopsis brassilensisrcuta (SP) 2 small bunches of ludwigia arcuata and one bunch of alternanthera reineckii 'rosafolia'. I planted all plants in both tanks just to see if they would grow in both tanks. I now have CO2 in both tanks and the growth in the 25 is really good. I am having some problems with algae in both tanks and am trying to figure out what needs to be done about that. Obviously I am lacking in some nutrients, bensaf has made that very clear, now to figure out which ones.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Where's Ingo? I need to yell at him he was the one who said I should move it so it's not so obvious. There, yelling all done.

Ok, let me have it

Yes, I am guilty. But not because I said you should move it. I am guilty because I neglected to consider your water current. Sorry about that .

Glad to hear that you seem to have found your fish problem source. I am hearing reports that are mixed when it comes to frozen foods, some say that they are safe while others say that simply freezing it will not kill the parasites. I don't feed any frozen (or live) food, only freeze dried.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Obviously I am lacking in some nutrients, bensaf has made that very clear, now to figure out which ones.

Well what's the algae and what are you adding now ?

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I have a water change due today in the 25, I will test all values before the change and again after and post them here, there is only greenspot in that tank, I had a good look and that's all I can find. The new plants are growing well and are probably competing with the algae for nutrients now and the algae seems to be losing! Yay! The big algae problems are in the 10, I have BGA,BBA,hair/staghorn and greenspot all in that one little tank. I have added some new plants to that tank and will take readings of it and post them.

My dosing schedule is leave the nitrates alone as long as they don't fall below 10. Add iron and potassium every few days or when the plants look like they need it, holes form, leaves yellow etc. I only just started testing for P, now according to my test kit I am in the right range, I have 0.5 mg/L or ppm, according to what I read in the EI article and here, that number is way too low. I add trace with each water change as well. For ferts I use Nutrafin Plant Grow NPK and Plant Grow iron enriched trace elements, I use Seachem Flourish Iron and Potassium, and I have started using Blackwater extract and Marc Weiss Ketapang Vital, which softens water, may lower pH (not yet KH still too high) and adds trace elements, vitamins and hormones to the water. I usually have peat in the filter but haven't had it while dosing the tank and trying out the new blackwater stuff. I have the Hagen Plant Grow CO2 system set-up and running, the bubble rate is pretty low though. I was able to get some Brewer's yeast for free from a wine/beer making supply store and will make the next batches with the new yeast, hopefully the bubble rate will increase.

I picked up some new driftwood to add to the tank, this may help with softening the water and of course it should make my 'scape look better, I will see where the 2 pieces will fit in, I may have to move some plants around though, oh shucks!

PS, once I have the current params, before and after water change, maybe we can figure out what I should be dosing and how much. Here's the info on the Nutrafin products I am currently using.

Plant Gro NPK 0.6-0.3-2.4 5 ml per 10 gallons provides 3.5 mg/L Nitrate, 0.5 mg/L Phosphate and 2.5 mg/L Potassium

Plant Gro Iron enriched 0.15-0-0 5ml per 10 gallons provides 0.3 mg/L iron, Guaranteed analysis nitrogen 0.15%, iron 0.26%, Manganese 0.05%, Zinc 0.003%, Boron 0.0005%, Copper 0.0005%, Molybdate 0.0007%.


"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Pre-water change test results
pH 7.8 almost 8
GH 280 ppm
KH 90 ppm
NO3 5-10 ppm
PO4 0.5 ppm
Fe 0.5 ppm
Temp 76F/24.5 C

I tested the change water, the water that has been treated with prime, Ketapang Vital, peat (almost spent), and Kents Blackwater Expert has these readings
pH 6.5-7.0 (wide range test)
GH 160
KH 60

Major difference, I'll be adding the water very slowly I think, and adding some tap water to the bucket to raise those values just a bit. That stuff really works at reducing GH, KH and pH! The peat is coming out of the buckets finally, I have found something that works. I may do small water changes every other day until the tank has reached the values I want. I'm aiming for pH 6.8, the GH and KH that is in the buckets will do for me as well.


"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I decided to test the water going into the tank, it has been treated with prime, Marc Weiss Ketapang, and Blackwater extract, the readings are as follows:

pH 6.8
GH 160
KH 60

The stuff really works, the pH from the tap is 7.8, GH is 300 and KH is 300 ppm.

I did the water change, will test tomorrow when the tank has had a chance to settle. I added the 2 new pieces of driftwood and rearranged the plants a bit. I have left the CO2 ladder where it is for now, the heater is beside it now placed at a 45 degree angle, I am hoping this will help with heat distribution as well as water movement. When the water clears I will take some pics of the new layout, I like it but my 8 yr old son thinks one of the plants needs to be moved, I think it is a bit crowded with crypts, I'd like to take some out and put in some other plants, like the small-leaved ludwigia, or another red-leaf plant like the reineckii or the red ludwigia I have now, maybe a small-leaved or dwarf variety. I did take out the big sword as bensaf put it, it really took off all of a sudden, the one in the 10g will be going soon too. I may have a bit of an algal bloom due to it's removal, so the sooner I get a new plant to replace it the better.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

My dosing schedule is leave the nitrates alone as long as they don't fall below 10.

And you are trusting your test kit to tell you this?

Add iron and potassium every few days or when the plants look like they need it, holes form, leaves yellow etc.

Waiting for a deficiency to show is really too late.

But this touches on a very important and often over looked aspect of a successful tank.

A huge factor in whether or not you are successful is creating a simple habit. A good stable routine that's constant.

You've got a lot of stuff there and dosing seems to be haphazard, lot of messing with the water.

Keep it simple. Dose the NPK stuff 3 times a week to a rate of 5ppm NO3. Dose micros 3 times a week - 2.5ml for the 10 gal, 5ml for the 25gal each dose.
That's pretty much it.

Keep GH above 3dgh.

The blackwater extract will mess up your Co2 readings using the KH/pH chart.
Measure Co2 based on pH only.

Take some tank water and leave stand for 24 hrs to degas. After the 24hrs measure pH and at the same time measure tank pH. If your Co2 is at the desired rate of 30ppm the tank pH sould be 1 point lower then the 24hr sample.
i.e if the 24hr sample is 7.8pH then the tank should be 6.8pH, that's about 30ppm of co2.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

My aim for pH is to have the CO2 bring it to that value, the KH is still higher than hoped for (80 ppm) and I thought that affected the CO2 amount, which is why the messing with the water, I thought if I got the KH within range then the amount of CO2 would be higher, am I wrong in this? GH is definitely going to stay above 3, I haven't really been able to lower either GH or KH by very much, which is why I still search for a way to bring it to the desired level for optimal CO2 levels.

Thanks for the dosing regimen, I will follow it. In fact I'm copying it out right now.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

I might have to brake down and try it. Right now my CO2 is right about where I want it so I am not going to mess with it.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I thought if I got the KH within range then the amount of CO2 would be higher, am I wrong in this?

Way way way wrong. But it's a common enough mistake and mis understanding.

KH is a buffer it's not in and of itself a source of Co2.

People read a little about the KH/pH relationship and think "hey if reduce that (KH) I'll get more Co2 !". Doesn't happened , the pH will drop with it and the amount of Co2 will remain the same -and vice versa.

The only reason KH needs to be altered is if it's less then 2dgh as this low of a buffer will lead to serious pH swings when Co2 is introduced.

You are making things very had on yourself. No need to play with GH/KH/pH unless they are too low. pH should never be messed with unless through the addition of Co2.

Forget about the black water extracts and all that. Your tap water is very similar to mine 7.8ph here out of the tap, 5 KH and 8Gh. Yet I can grow anything and keep most all kinds of fish. Why give yourself a headache.

Keep it simple. Co2 will be your biggest problem. Focus on getting that right. Forget the buffers etc. Keep a very simple dosing routine as outlined above. Get the Co2 right.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

It's the GH and KH that are not the same, mine are way over 5, 300ppm for both from the tap, this works out to about 17 degrees, at that level there is no change in pH when CO2 is injected and my bubble rate for CO2 is so low that I doubt it's doing any good! The blackwater stuff brings the KH down to about 6, which I can live with, the GH I don't really worry about as there is not much I can do about it, the extract does reduce it as well though not as much as the KH, and I test it to see where it's at but it has been the high KH from the tap that has me going crazy. Do I have any effect from the CO2 with the KH that high? At 17 degrees I mean, obviously 6 is ok. If I can achieve 6 with the blackwater then that's what I am using it for, I am not going for 3 or anything, or trying to lower pH, it just happens with the stuff to some extent. I'm going to re-read Chuck Gadds article and go through the EI article as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Yesterday my computer was possesed or something, thus the extra posts that mean nothing and I couldn't reply at all when I wanted to. Now bensaf is off celebrating, as is most everyone else. But I have to report that I have lost another oto, I now have no otos in the 25, I still have the original pair in the 10 though so I'm not completely otoless. I'll be posting some new pics soon, I will warn you the tank looks completely different, better I'd say, but different still so it has taken some getting used to. I may still move a couple of plants around and I'm looking for a couple other's to add better balance in the tank. Overall I'm pleased with the new look. Now to get the CO2 going better. I'm trying another DIY canister, the traditional 2L pop bottle in addition to the Hagen canister already on the tank, I figure I need both due to the high KH...so that's what I'll do.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

this works out to about 17 degrees, at that level there is no change in pH when CO2 is injected and my bubble rate for CO2 is so low that I doubt it's doing any good!

So what do you think is the main problem , the Kh or the low bubble rate ?

If your co2 bubbling is so low it probably doesn't matter what your KH is. That's top priority.

If the blackwater is reducing the KH and it's easy to dose , fine. But be aware that most KH reducers have a lot of phosphate.

If it's a small tank maybe mixing your tap water with RO/DI or bottled water is an option ?

Co2 is still your biggest problem.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

My guess is too low a bubble rate. So to start with I'll add a second CO2 bottle and see what happens with that. The extract is really easy to use, I just add it to the water before the water goes into the tank. The timing is the tricky part, too long and it drops the pH a lot, not long enough and it has no effect at all. It drops the KH the same in either circumstance though. RO water may be an option for the smaller tank, but the extract does as well for it, I'd maybe look at using it to cut the tap water with, I think it would have the same effect as the blackwater though. The blackwater extract has no phosphates in it.

I entered the results into Chuck Gadds CO2 caculator and I'm at 2 ppm right now. Not good.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

As promised new pics of the tank, please ignore the greenish tinge, it's going away I swear.

[link=The whole tank in perspective] http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c56/luvmypetz/Wholetankperspective.jpg[/link]
The whole tank closer up
The Right side
The left side

Sorry wingsdlc, she just wasn't posing for me tonight, she was checking out the new set-up and kept ducking behind the plants as I was shooting. Her colour is just as good as always though.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

The tanks looking pretty good, certainly nothing to be ashamed of

Plants look healthy, although a few look like they've just been planted ?

Get see any major algae apart from some green spot on the crypts.

2ppm means your DIY Co2 is doing nothing. @ppm is what you'd expect from a non injected tank.

Even for DIY that's bad. Obviously something off in the mixture or it's not being diffused at all.

Having said that the blackwater extract will be throwing off your calculation using the KH/pH chart.

Try testing using the 24 hr method I describe above and see if you get the same result.

If I leave some tank water sitting for 24 hrs I get a reading of 7.8pH, the tank is measuring at 6.7pH. So I'm certain I'm above the 30ppm mark even without measuring KH or worrying if something in the tank is messing with the KH. A lot of time the KH/pH table can give a false reading. pH kits can be wrong at least with this method if the kit is wrong it'll be wrong by the same amount for both samples, so I still get an accurate Co2 reading. It's not the level of pH that's important it's the size of the drop from the Co2 injection.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Ooh a compliment, thanks, I never thought I'd get one from you bensaf! I think it's starting to look pretty good, yes some of the plants have been planted recently and some may be moving still, either to another locale in the tank or out of the tank altogether. There are a couplke of spots where I want to add more plants that are similar yet not exactly the same, within the same family at least. I love the ludwigia arcuata with it's tiny leaves, and the reineckii, I hope it does well, and the same with the ludwigia repens (I think that's what it is, that or a hygro of some sort, the tall red one in the back). I put the names here when I put them in but I haven't got them in my book yet. I keep a gardening diary for my land plants outside and decided to do the same thing for my aquatic ones as well.

That batch is only a week old too. I think that says something about that system. The tank is only 5 gallons bigger than what it's made for and the CO2 mix is supposed to last up to 4 weeks, I thought I'd get at least 2 weeks in between new batches. Tomorrow I'll get the bigger canister (2L) up and running and then I'll try your way of testing to see how I've done. I have decided to keep a log (hand written) of the testing results to keep track of them. I especially want to track the CO2 progress. I really don't want to have to go pressurized just yet, but if I have to...

The Hagen system IS working fine in my 10 gallon tank though. So I think it is just too small for the 25 gallon. Here's hoping the 2L bottle works better!

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Indeed, your tank doesn't look bad at all

This is one of these cases where the owner of a tank is its worst critic, I suffer from the same disease. The closer one gets the less one is satisfied with the results.

Anyway, I would suggest that for now you keep on trying to get your CO2 up and leave the plants where they are. Once this is done you can get started on giving the tank more structure, if needed.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Luv,

Lets talk about your mix a little.

How much sugar?
How much yeast?
How much water?
Water temp?
Order of adding in.


This is what I used to do:
~2 Cups of sugar mixed with screaming hot 3-4 cups of water. This disolves the suger really well and super fast.
~2 cups of cool water mixed with about a tps of yeast. Let that disolve. I stired my up to speed this up.
~ Once the yeast mix is good and milky looking I add that in to the 2L too.
~ Put on a non-drilled cap and shake the crap out of it.
~ Lossen the cap so it doesn't blow and let it sit for a couple of hours.
~ Add to the system.

When I was running two 2L's on the same system I wouldn't let it sit for very long. Just hook it up and go. I was figuring that the other bottle would help even out any problems with temp and sucking water from the tank.

Something else I just thought of. How warm is your house? My appartment stays pretty tosty. Maybe upper 70's to lower 80's. I guess thats what happens when you have 170G of water flowing around in a cracker jack box. Anyways if your house temp is too low the yeast will not work as well.

I think a double 2L system is going to be your best bet to get your CO2 up. I was running 3 2L's on my 40G. I never tested it but I am sure I could have hooked up an other one without any damage.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

I have been using 1 cup of sugar in the Hagen bottle, the yeast that came with it seemed to be old so I have been using my baker's yeast, about a quarter of a teaspoon, it's a much smaller container, then I fill it up with warm water to the top mark. My house is now kept steady at 19C during the day and 17C at night. I find 20C too warm for me, unless I'm not feeling well, then I turn it up a bit. In the 2L bottle(s) I will try your method and see how it goes, you think I need 2 bottles rather than one? The Hagen bottle is about 500-650 ml.

LF- I will leave the plants alone for now, then I can tweak it later. I keep forgetting I have to re-plant again anyway when the new gravel goes in. I found Eco-Complete at Big Al's in Edmonton, I'm thinking a 1" layer of that under the natural river gravel will be good. 2-3" of river gravel and I should have lots of substrate. They have the florite too but it's all the wrong colour, it would have to be under the eco I would think. Maybe a 1" layer across the back, then it would be sloped and the nutrients would be where the plants need it, I don't plant all the way to the glass, so I wasn't sure about putting the eco to the glass either. I've got an article about setting up an amano tank and I'm going to try for the same type of substrate system he uses, I can't do the whole set-up he does 'cause the fish and plants have to go in on the same day! If I could set-up another tank from scratch I would do it right and follow it step by step.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Ugh! My connection went down. I wanted to ask you Wingsdlc how long you let it sit for? Not too long doesn't tell me much, in my house it takes about 2 hrs to see any bubbles in the bottle. I now have two bottles started, and another cap drilled, sealed and curing. I have also cranked the heat up a bit to get things going. It seemed to have improved the bubble rate for the bottle already on the tank.
Now to work out where the bottles will go when they are connected to the tank. There's no room or shelf in behind the tank, the table beside the tank is very low. I may need some more time to work this out.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Sorry about not giving you a time on how long I let the bottle sit. Most of they time it would only be a couple of hours at most. After letting it sit I would shake the junk out of it again just to make sure its good and mixed. When I was running 3 bottles I would be changing my mix every week in a different bottle so the bottles were only running 3 weeks each.

I think your house temp might be part of the problem. 62F at night and 66F in the day is kind of cool The yeast might not like it as much. My little studio apt stay well I am guess close to 80F most of the time. It helps that its pretty high humidity being I have 175G of water floating around from my 5 tanks.

Best of luck! Let us know how things go!

About tearing down your tank... best of luck with that too! If you go with Florite put small amounts of it in a large net and rinse it in there. Works great! Way better than a 5G bucket.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Thanks Wings! I will remember that about the florite, I may be able to do the changeover sooner than expected, but I want to get the CO2 down before making any more major changes in the tank. Though that gravel is the last thing driving me crazy, except I didn't find it as bad in the last set of pics. Anyone else find it not as noticeble or am I just blocking really well?
I have a mesh bag with the CO2 bottle in it hanging beside the tank. I'm letting it sit overnight again, no bubbles yet, could be bad yeast, the guy did say they were expired and he gave them to me for free. I have turned up the heat in the house a bit and have the second bottle sitting over a heat vent in a bathroom cabinet. I have 2 cats and a dog see and I don't want them knocking things over thus things must be placed with that foremost in mind.
I was trying to figure out how to keep the bottles with the shortest distance between them and the tank and was thinking about adding a shelf under the tank, on top of the tank stand, the shelf would stick out about 6 inches in back of the tank. The tank would still be square on the stand and I would then have a place to hide the CO2 bottles. Obviously I can't do this with the water in the tank, so it would have to wait for the breakdown and re-plant. Then while talking to my brother we came up with the hanging mesh bags. The bag is hanging off a picture hook beside and behind the tank, this way it is at the right height and not as visible. It may be I won't need the shelf after all.

Wings what yeast did you use? Baker's yeast or did you try brewer's yeast? I am having little luck with any yeast except the stuff that came with my second hagen unit.

Bensaf, I need to make this 100% clear as day before I go ahead with it. You've been saying I can add water from my tap with nothing but prime in it, no peat extracts to adjust KH, GH and pH, just prime and it will be fine and my CO2 will be fine and the tank will be fine and the fish will be fine? I am really not sure about this as I have spent so much time trying to soften the water and condition it so it will be best for the fish and plants that I am feeling like I am standing on a cliff without a parasail or a chute and am about to jump. We're talking fear here, I'm afraid to let go of the peat, I like the peat but you say I don't need the peat. The fish have adjusted to the peat, but new fish haven't been doing so well in that tank lately, which is why I'm thinking about making this change. Then the water at the store and the water here would be a better match. Same as the water from the tap and the water in the tank. Please assure me this will be fine. We're talking KH 300, pH 7.8, and I'm still not 100% clear on the pH/KH/CO2 thing but I'm trusting you. I'm adding 2 2L bottles of CO2 to the tank as soon as tomorrow, I need to know it will be ok to do so and let the pH and KH sort itself out in the tank.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

You've been saying I can add water from my tap with nothing but prime in it,

People been quoting me on things I don'r remember saying. Prime ? I've never used Prime or mentioned it to anyone

Basically the only lem with your tap water is the Kh. It'll take a lot of Co2 to make a dent in it. DIY may not cut it.

Continue to use the blackwater extract to reduce it if easy.

---

Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I was only using bakers yeast.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Sorry bensaf, Prime is the water conditioner I'm using now, I should have said dechlorinator instead of Prime, but basically my question was should I stop worrying about the KH or continue to adjust it using the blackwater extract? The extract does bring the KH to a more manageble level, cuts it in half actually, but it is still above 5 dKH. If I keep it at that level then I can be assured that when the CO2 starts making bubbles I will actually be getting CO2 in the water, and the KH will prevent a major drop in pH. This is what I want to be sure of. Yes the blackwater is easy to use. And I have it on hand and it's no more expensive than the fertilizers I am using.

Thank you very much for your patience with me, I am still trying to figure all this out, the tank is only a year old and it has gone through so many changes in such a short time, but I think I'm getting closer to understanding everything. I took your dosing schedule for the tanks and printed out a Maintenance schedule for them, that goes into my diary and is posted beside the small tank here above my desk. This way I'm reminded when to do things like add ferts and stuff.

Wings, I had to make a new batch of yeast as the brewers yeast was dead, no bubbles at all. So I'm back to baker's yeast and I followed your instructions. My poor tank is without CO2 as the old bottle is almost completely spent now and the new one won't be ready for at least a couple of hours. Yikes, it almost makes me want to go pressurized! But such expense and hassle for a 25 gallon tank, at least the tank is looking better than ever.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

The real deal is cool but I am starting to have algae issues with my tank. Not really sure on the cause yet. Didn't happen until I switched over though.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

As long as you are using the DIY co2, probably best to use the extract to drop the KH. 5 dgh is absolutely fine.

You will probably not get an accurate reading of Co2 using the blackwater so use the method I describe above to test.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The 2 2L bottles are up and running! I have 1 bubble/second I think, they're really coming through now. So to be sure on this if the tank is at 6.8 and the water that sits overnight is at 7.8 then I've got 30ppm right? Or is that wrong? As long as the fish aren't gasping at the surface before bed tonight I think I won't worry, there's never been this many CO2 bubbles in the tank. I have the filter on high at night and during the day I turn the filter down to mid-low. Thus maximizing the CO2 level. The ladder is right beside the heater which is placed at a really low angle horizontally, in the middle of the back of the tank as close to the gravel as I can get it. Thus I have good water flow past the ladder I hope. As the warmer water moves up it is drawn over towards the filter return and the CO2 bubbles that reach the surface can be seen to be drawn towards the flow and pushed back down into the tank. I hope it's a good set-up as I find it the best visually, all the hardware will soon be camoflaged by the plants.

I find it a nice tank to look at and spent hours today just tank watching from my Ikea bentwood chair, which doesn't face the TV but has it's back to the TV and faces the tank, who needs TV anyway?

Thanks to everyone for getting me this far. Of course this isn't the end of this log, I still have the substrate change and replant to do, which I am eager for and yet reluctant as I am finally happy with the tank. Maybe when things start to grow and get crowded I won't feel the same way. Then there's always new fish. Soon I think the danios will have had their day, I am down to 3 and two look like they are fading, the last I'm sure is one of the original 6 that I cycled the tank with and will be sad to se him go. I think though in their place will be brilliant rasboras, they are quietly flashy and are compatible with the barbs. On the other hand they are not considered compatible with the krib. I can't find any fish other than danios that are top-dwellers and compatible with both the barbs and the krib, but I am still looking. I have time after all. I won't be adding any fish until after the change I think, that will give the tank time to adjust and settle back down. And the current fish won't be stressing over new tank mates while fighting off the worms or whatever is in there.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

So to be sure on this if the tank is at 6.8 and the water that sits overnight is at 7.8 then I've got 30ppm right?

Correct. If the drop in pH is less then 1 you have less then 30ppm if it's more then a 1 point drop you have more then 30ppm. I've got a chart somewhere I'll dig out for you.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Nothing new really going on in the 25, except that after 2 days of good bubble rate for CO2, the rate has really dropped, 2 bottles isn't enough! If I did 3 and changed one every week would that be excessive? Pressurized is starting to look really good, except for the expense involved, my Hubby may decide not to come home ever! The temp in the house may have something to do with it, but I find anything over 20C and I am not comfortable, nor is my wallet when the gas bill comes. I should get great CO2 in the summer when it is too hot for me in the house.

The 10 is completely overrun with BBA, staghorn and thread I think, the algae is pearling on the plants! Could it be that there is not enough light/plants to handle the CO2 and the nutrients? If so, then I guess a re-plant is in order, It is currently 15 watts over 10 gallons. I can get the plant grow bulb, it has a better spectrum of light. I can't re-do the light like I did for the 25, that's way over the top. I suppose I could go for my own little crypt, anubias and java fern mound, stick with the low-light plants and take out the CO2 or reduce the fert schedule to accomodate the slower-growing plants? Any advice on this would be appreciated. I could start a new log but I don't want to add to the growing number of folks here with MLS (multiple LOG syndrome). Thus I guess the occasional question and comment about the 10 will go in here as well.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Nothing new really going on in the 25, except that after 2 days of good bubble rate for CO2, the rate has really dropped, 2 bottles isn't enough! If I did 3 and changed one every week would that be excessive? Pressurized is starting to look really good, except for the expense involved, my Hubby may decide not to come home ever! The temp in the house may have something to do with it, but I find anything over 20C and I am not comfortable, nor is my wallet when the gas bill comes. I should get great CO2 in the summer when it is too hot for me in the house.

Tell me again, why your not simply using excel in this tank.

The 10 is completely overrun with BBA, staghorn and thread I think, the algae is pearling on the plants! Could it be that there is not enough light/plants to handle the CO2 and the nutrients? If so, then I guess a re-plant is in order, It is currently 15 watts over 10 gallons.

15w over 10, that's like no light and your making it way to complicated with the co2. You should be using lowlight plants and dosing a smigden here and a smigden there. If you want to add a few drops of excel go right ahead.


My Scapes

I was using Excel in the 25 and the 10, Excel wasn't enough for the 25 when I changed the light, thus DIY CO2, I found part of the problem was a leak, so in luvmykrib fashion after posting for help I found the problem and took steps to fix it. I took off the old sealant around the tube into the bottle, added new sealant to the top of the tube wher it joins the check valve, then pulled the tube all the way down until the check valve tube was visible inside the cap, it swells there enough to cause a natural seal and the sealant will keep it in place. Then I added some old towels from my rag bucket to the bottom of the mesh bag to insulate the bottles from the bottom. Hopefully this will help with the major problem of my DIY CO2 system, a new batch of CO2 will be coming up soon, I will stick with 2 bottles for now, changing them in rotation every 1-2 weeks as needed. That tank does have the lights and plants to need CO2 and will be getting more plants as soon as I can get them.

Tetratech, the 10 will be going low tech, it does have a pitiful amount of light except for the hour each day when my sky-light lets the sun in and some of that strikes the tank, I have a blind in the kitchen window to block as much as I could, then noticed there was the sky-light to contend with as well! The tank will be moving as soon as I can get someplace to set it on out of the line of fire. Co2 may still be of some benefit to that tank once I get the light situation figured out. Dosing macros will be reduced to a smidgeon here and a smidgeon there, mostly after water changes. I will be adding a mound, which means more anubias, fern and crypts, the lone val in that tank has produced a baby, it didn't like the bigger tank at all, but it likes the 10 just fine. I will be looking for ideas for my new mound idea, I've been toying with it for awhile, I just need more larger-sized rocks and a few more small pieces of intersting driftwood, then I can add in more plants and away we go. I'll either wind up with a mound or a reef, I'm not sure yet.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

For the 10 I'd forget about the DIY co2.

I've never tried DIY and never will, just not worth the hassle with bottles and the problems of inconsistent Co2. Unstable Co2 will cause tons more algae problems then anything else.

Injected gas is a bit pricey for a 10gal.

Definately low tech is in the long term way more bang for your buck, just need some patience.

I've got 18watts over a 5 gal and find it hard to grow stuff.

Definately just stick to mosses, Anubias, crypts - just wood and rock to fill in space. A very nice pain free tank. Use excel and little bit of micro fert. Those plants won't make much demand on macros fish should be able to keep up.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

The problem with taking the CO2 off the 10 is that I have already bought 2 of the Hagen Systems and have replaced the canister on the 25 with 2 larger canisters. They are non-refundable, I am considering upping the light, maybe going topless?

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

maybe going topless?

Getting a little wild around here at night.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
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