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  L# LITTLE_FISH 125G Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 125G Log
Wingsdlc
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Heidi,

I also vote Oto and I feel your pain about wanting to start a log but feeling like you can't hang with these big dowgs!

Also, I am glad the Excel did it for you. I used to use the stuff all the time until I went broke.........

It happens when you decide to get married......not married yet but I will be in may. Lets just say that marrage and college should be very carefuly mixed with a fish problem.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
houston
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Heck I might just start one to irritate the "Little_Fish" and any reason is a good reason to post about a tank right Well, definately gotta take more pics of the tank if I decide to start a log of the tankand there is no time like the presenthml

EDIT: You are definately right, marriage, college, and fish keeping should be carefully mixed otherwise you have no funding for anything Thus, no college, no spouse, only fishkeeping, and i'm still with no fundingit all goes to the fish and the job:%)

Last edited by houston at 06-Nov-2005 16:48

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yup, Megil is right, it is an Oto

And Heidi, there is no requirement at FP that you would have to have CO2 to write a log . Just go to the aquascaping forum and look at my 20G and 29G log (although it is not listed in the last 14 days option).

And tetratech, proudly I say that I have not budged and followed the EI from beginning to today .

Wingsdlc – does your fiancée like fish? And don’t worry about logs and big dowgs, I have no idea what I am doing .

Ingo

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:

Also, the fact that I list my fish in my profile makes it easier to guess what fish might be in a picture.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Nov-2005 16:55
[/font]


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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LIttle_Fish,

She likes fish. Not quite like I like fish but she seems to like them. Normaly the bigger the better the fish is for her. I guess that means I can build my super tank and breed some big new worlds someday.

This weekend she actualy suprized me with some fish information. I guess she really does love me.

For our wedding reception I though out a random idea of putting fish on all the tables. Something like bettas in small vases. She actual thought it would be neat. Now the trick is to see if we can get them for super cheap somewhere and figure out what to do with them after wards because I don't want 30 some bettas!

P.S. Think I could pull off a log for my planted 40 gallon? Should I make this a log?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wingsdlc,

I don’t know about this Betta idea, sounds like you either have to take all of them or trust your guests to create a proper environment for them if they should keep them. Scary.

Can you pull of a log? Sure you can, everybody can. A log does not have to begin at a setup of a completely new tank. I think I would not use your existing thread as a log as it has already a life on its own, if you know what I mean. I would say you should find a point in time where there is more to do then just moving things from left to right. How about a major rescape .

And I would suggest that you either link your pictures directly into the thread (so people don’t have to click on a link to see some shots) or, even better , you become a premie and attach your images to your posts. I see various older logs that originally had embedded images from some photo collection sites, but once you remove the image from there you have a dead link here.

Hope this helps,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Little_Fish,

That was the major problem with the Betta's was what kind of home they might be going to.

As for the log.....I will probably wait until I get some sweet cash flow and time play with stuff. I need to steel my friends camera again and take some more picters. I have moved stuff around a bit, put up a background, and started putting moss on the DW. I really want to get some low growing plants but I haven't found what I wanted yet. Plus I am poor...

Thanks for your help!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Tonight it clearly feels as if a new season in my tank’s development is starting.



Almost all the algae is retreating and the Espei fry is starting to swim in formation. But as usual, all good things have a bad side – what are the Otos and the fry going to eat when all the algae is gone? We will see…

Within 3 days of adding Flourish Excel the tank becomes a delight. based on tetratech’s advice I reduced subsequent dosing to 20ppm.

Here is a not so good shot of the Espei fry in school formation right below the surface (I think there are 11 in this pic)

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And, just in time for a nice clean tank, a new blossom on one of my Anubias Barteri

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sounds like a good time to kick back grab a beer and really enjoy your tank. Then you can get to the scaping phase, but I would enjoy watching the algae shrivel up and die a horrible death.

BTW - Where in the word is Bensaf ]:|

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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DIE ALGAE, DIE

Yeah, that sounds good – sitting back and enjoying the view. But I think I am a worrier by nature. It keeps my brain busy to think about all the awful things that can happen now.

As I said earlier, I wonder what the fry and the Otos will eat. On the other hand, I certainly have enough fry that is large enough to eat my small flakes and maybe it is only right that the population growth in the tank is stopped.

The good thing about having fry is that they grow slowly and as such increase the tanks bio load gradually and beneficial bacteria are getting enough time to increase in numbers. I think I will wait a little before adding new fish to the tank, but the one I am keen on would be the Pearl Gouramy. I am not sure if its ph requirements are compatible with my tank, but as tetratech said in his thread “I will have to do more research before I go out and buy”.

Ingo

PS: I certainly hope Bensaf is only on a long vacation, we shall call the Jakarta police if he doesn’t show up soon.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I wouldn't worry about the otos. If the algae disappears they will eat the algae wafers. When I drop when in they are all over it.

The fry can probably eat flake food. Just grind some it between your fingers. Even with excel doing it's magic, there will be plenty in their for them to eat.

I'm not big on gourmais, I thing Bensaf has quite a few.
I guess will give him another week, before we contact the authorities.


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I remember bensaf saying somewhere that since the end of ramadan was coming up, a lot more bars would be open the week after it ended, therefore he'd be spending more time...well... out enjoying the pub life

Like I said, that may have been a while ago, and I may also be nuts, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned somethign along those lines...

Also glad to see the excel method is working for you too


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

Bensaf mentioned the bars. I hope he didn’t get shanghaied while being drunk and is now sitting on some pirate ship setting the sails .

Why no Gouramies, tetratech? I think the pearl look similar to Keyhole Cichlids (to some degree).

Yeah NowherMan6, I saw the effects of the Excel within 2 days only, just amazing.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I guess gourmais are just not my thing. I think with the long fins in the front they are somewhat too "how should I put it" delicate looking.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Actually I did kinda like this gourmai



tetratech attached this image:


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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That's a Sphaerichthys osphromenoides, aka Chocolate Gourami, as listed in our profiles (although almost all the pictures seem to be wrong).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 08-Nov-2005 13:03


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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BTW - Where in the word is Bensaf


The beginning of last week was Idul Fitri, which is the biggest Muslim holiday (marks the end of Ramadhan) and starts the longest holiday period in Indonesia. Basically the whole country shuts down for 2 weeks and everyone either goes home to their family or goes on holiday. Sort of like Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays combined. My guess is Bensaf either went abroad or visited his wife's family in Kalimantan (Borneo). Hardly any bar would be open during this period as there would be no customer. I bet he'll be back next week.

Last edited by upikabu at 08-Nov-2005 18:19

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
houston
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Yes, Ingo can countat least to 11that or I can't count eitherand that could be a possibility

Anyways would the Flourish (i think that is what you're using to get rid of algae) kill off the black algae that is starting up in my 2.5 tank at school? It's irritating the snot out of me, and with it being allergy season that is saying a lot

love the fry, but why not add a betta to the tank

*goes to hide* hml

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Houston you have a problem?

That Black stuff looks like BGA which really isn't an algae but a bacteria. You can do a blackout or use Erethromycin(EM)tablets. I bet that tank is near a window or something. BGA is caused by too much light and not enough nitrate.



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Upikabu – Thanks for this update, I guess we will give him one more week, but that’s it

Heidi – I hope you have a hankie ready . As tetratech says, if it is BGA (Blue-Green Algae) then the best treatment would be some form of Erethromycin, I personally used the Maracin I tablets in my tanks. If it is BBA (Black-Beard-Algae) then the Excel should help.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Oh,

I forgot to mention an observation I made during the last couple of days, maybe the Excel recommenders would be able to comment.

Ever since I started to add the Excel the bubbling of my plants has been reduced to almost nothing. The bubble count is the same for at least the last 2 weeks.

Do you have a similar experience?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Same for me. I started using it about the same time as you and what I took for "pearling" has stopped. I am just assuming that what I had was algae "boiling and bubbling." I have less algae now after several cleanings and the Excell but it hasn't totally stopped growing on the leaf edges and such.

Great log BTW.

jan
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
houston
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Ok the tank isn't by a window, it has a black out from Friday at 5 pm to about 8 am on Monday every week...
The lights are only on from about 8 am to 5 pm each day...does that help anything? I'm also doing a 100% water change on the tank and cleaning everything every week
So what's the problem with this tank? Grrrrrr, i'm understanding what you were going through and still going through with that algae Ingo:%)

OK tomorrow I'll take pictures of the "yuck" and post in my own thread

Thanks for the help...now back to Little_Fish's thread

What do you mean we have no new pictures tonight? I was hoping for more pictures, ok i'm out of herenight night, Houston

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks puddle cat and Heidi for the input,

I was busy last night taking a few shots of my [link=29G Setup]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/61406_3.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

I only have a few updates on this tank. One thing that I saw last night was that my Egeria Najas is completely melting away . I have no idea why, maybe the Excel, or the fact that I trimmed all of it last weekend and it doesn’t like that (although it didn’t melt other times), or it finally had enough from sitting in the water stream of the spraybar (far away, but within its current).

On page 13, I asked a question about one of my plants as I can’t identify it. I assumed it is an Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia" and Bensaf verified that finding. But yesterday my Amano books arrived and in one of them he has a picture of a tank with all green plants and one red, called Althernanthera sessilis. It looks to me as if that is that plant. Anyone can clarify this? I didn’t order it, but quite a few plants in my order had been substituted.

Ingo

Here is the plant in question:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
upikabu
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Ingo,

I know for a fact that Elodea/Anacharis (Egeria densa), which is in the same family as Egeria najas, is extremely sensitive to Excel (mentioned in my recent thread]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Photo%20Booth/66106.html?08507044#[/link]). I've experienced this firsthand in all 3 of my tanks. Everytime I added Excel (even less than recommended amount and not as often), the Elodea immediately melted away, while the other plants are unaffected. It baffled me initially, especially since it's been growing so well in my 42g for over 3 months (I only added Excel to it once, to try to get rid of BBA). It wasn't until I saw [link=this plantedtank.net profile that I realized Excel was the culprit. Once I stopped applying Excel, the remaining plant eventually did grow back.

My guess is Excel has a similar effect to Egeria najas.

Last edited by upikabu at 10-Nov-2005 05:41

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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As I mentioned you can't be all things to all fish and plants. Eventually you have to see what works well with your conditions and go with that set. That is really the key. Otherwise you're constantly setting conditions that will have a counter effect on something else. LF - So your reading up on the master
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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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upikabu,

Thank you for this update, I guess that means we found the culprit
It is not too much of a problem though as I think all the people who said that I have too many stems anyway are right (first one was Bensaf). This means that I can go out and find dome nice replacements .

tetratech,

Yeah, I am learning from the master himself.
I have to say that my initial reaction was being disappointed. As soon as the package arrived I opened it and started with book 1 (I got all 3, plus the Tropica Catalogue) and I couldn’t find any mentioning of what plants are used in the tanks. Next day I took the book 3 on the bus commute and in there (and in book 2) are the names of the plants. Book 3 because it is large tanks

Ingo

PS: anyone any idea about this plant above?


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Wow, you went for the whole collection. Your going to be an Amano apprentice for sure. I just have the first cheapo book "Aquarium Plant Paradise" that came out before the 3 big volumes. Amano's books I think are more visual than detailed analysis.

I don't know the plant you have in question. Where in the world is Bensaf when you need him.





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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Wow, you went for the whole collection.


What can I say, once I have an obsession I follow through with it .

Remember that I am “in the business” for only 9 months now and I already have 3 tanks, one of which it this high tech beauty. I am old, I have no time to waste .

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Whatever floats your boat. Speaking of boats, I think we are in the same one. I'll be 43 in May

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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No f*ing way

You, Bensaf, and I, we are all in the same boat, Bensaf being the senior and you the junior, but still within a 7 month time span.

I can see all of us in a small rowboat paddling on the great lake of life, already able to see the other shore.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Yes f'ing way

Although I thing Bensaf is already in a rowboat with Plantbrain and Amano in some remote south american location looking for new species of flora. I understand the excurison will last years.

I can't wait to see what they've discovered

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Pardon my interruption of this conversation regarding your advanced ages (), but LF, I have a question, if you don't mind:

I've been looking over all the pics of your espei fry. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't espei closely related to harlequin rasboras? If so, how did you get them to breed so easily? I've read some sources that say harlies are fairly easy to breed, but most say it's very diffcult... yet yours seem to be breeding like jackrabbits, or like multis (the jackrabbits of the aquarium)

What's your secret, do you do anything special? I assume your water is soft with a low pH because of the CO2... anything else?


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Pardon my interruption of this conversation regarding your advanced ages
Nowher I'm afraid to ask how old you are?

**BENSAF UPDATE**
All I can say is that he is alive. Anything further would be an invasion of his privacy.




Last edited by tetratech at 10-Nov-2005 16:54

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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I actually turn 23 on Saturday... and I already feel old

Good to hear Bensaf is alive and well, cheers for the update


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

Well my son , you mentioned something that I had observed myself. On one hand I wanted to keep it a secret (at least until the fry is big) on the other I couldn’t wait to scream it out. I am very well aware of the fact that most references to Espei say that they are extremely difficult to breed, with requirements like a ph of 5 to 6 (which I never had). Just look at the FP profile for this fish (soon I will suggest a bunch of updates).

I am a little embarassed, but I am (was) considering to submit an article to TFH, or at least a detailed question reading the rareness of my breeding success. Also, I was thinking of writing an article here for FP called something like “Beginner’s Luck”.

But I decided to do more research if this fry explosion is really that rare. I already found one website where a Scandinavian reports of easy breeding success. As disappointing as it is to find others with the same success, as helpful it is to avoid making false statements.

I just think my Espei love the messed-up environment, with loads of different algae types to feed on. Nevertheless, now that there is much less algae I still have a large number of very young fry (few days old).

It also could be that nowadays the Espei come from a farm and have become much easier to breed, but that is a pure guess on my side.

Good observation NowherMan6,

Ingo

PS: A toast to Bensaf, wherever he may be right now.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 10-Nov-2005 17:58


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*Raises glass of uh tea? to Bensaf* Take us with you

Anyways, I wish my harlies would get in the mood, but then again I might just lose all my mind if they went after itMy metaes are enough to drive me crazy

So Ingo, could the "little red plant" be acting like a crypt and melting away, but will regnerate (so I've been told) after a bit? Don't worry, by the looks of the tank I don't suspect you will lose it all

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Heidi,

You misunderstood. The little red plant seems to be just fine, it is a green stem plant on the right of the rock valley (in the back) that is melting (Egeria Najas) .

I easily have now 50 Espei fry of all ages in the tank, I think I would be able to keep maybe 30 (plus the 12 adults) and I will have to see what to do with the rest. Maybe it is soon time to get some Pearl Gouramies, I think they might like "a snack" .

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ok what can I say yesterday, was a bad bad bad day, and this week yeah that explains itor rather

same thing, maybe it will regrow? heck if i know...and if you're just going to feed the fry to a gourami ship them southi might be able to find room for them

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Well,

What can I say, I am a fool. I just spent 6 hours messing with the tank (including water change), hoping to make it look better by moving plants around. Honestly, I think it is just as “unorganized” as it was before .

Without further comment, here are a bunch of pictures from the process:

Before the Reorganization

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With Plant Group on the right removed

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With Corkscrew Vals removed

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Back of Rock Valley planted with Corkscrew Vals

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Rest of Tank replanted

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A close-up of the Corkscrew laid out for replanting

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The school of Espei fry in the open space during replant

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A closeup of Rock Valley, the only part I kinda like

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With all of that, the Egeria Najas, Rotala Rotundifolia, and the last (sorry tetratech) Wisteria are gone.

I also repositioned to spray bar so it is horizontal just below the surface on the left tank side. I think the current created by this arrangement is strong enough, so I also removed the last power head that I had in the tank.

In addition, I stopped adding Excel, let’s see how quickly the algae can return.

Ingo

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LF,
Wow you've been busy. I hope the wife took you out for a nice dinner after that.

I definitely like the Corkscrews behind rock valley. I think you need to decide if your going to keep that focal point or do something more random with groupings and pieces of hardscape. I'm sure you'll get some good ideas from all those Amano pics. Right now your tank looks like two tanks:



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I hope the wife took you out for a nice dinner after that


Right, sure .

How excited do you think she was after I disappeared for 6 hours into the basement ?

Very very good observation tetratech, it surely looks like two tanks. My vision went only so far as I knew what to put behind the Rock Valley. The rest was more like “where do I put all the plants now?” Honestly, I like the Rock Valley much better. I guess I will look around for loads of tall grassy plants.

Ingo

Just now I looked at the tank and on the right hand side is an Espei fry meeting. Unfortunately the pictures didn’t come out well (I will show one of only 5), but there were at least 30 “older” fry hanging out in formation, COOL.

Here are the 5:

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Good Heavens I haven't been here in ages, but am just in time for the new pictures!

Wow LF everything looks to be growing really well, I get what Tetratech said about two tanks, hmmmm. I never really understood why you didn't put rock valley in the middle but I guess that would look a little staged and too garden like rather then river like.

am very sleepy but just wanted to say it looks brillant

GFG
xx

ps where is bensaf? I want to start my 5 gallon and need to pick his brains.


Last edited by goldfishgeek at 12-Nov-2005 19:09

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I like the rock and grass and really enjoy the third pic you posted it's truly my favorite Now at least you know where the fry are hidingmaybe that lends a clue as to where the adults are going This is exactly why I refuse to try and aquascape, I can't organize a room, much less plants in a tank

And I don't suppose your wife was happy for you to disappear for 6 hrsso did you take her out for dinner to make up for it? That might help heidi

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GFG,

Thanks for the encouragement.

In general, using the middle of a tank as a focal point is not a good idea. The old Chinese (I think) found out that harmony for the human eye is created by a “golden rule” of division which takes any length, divides it by 2.6 (roughly) and then puts the focus on the 1 mark either from the left or right. So, as an example, a tank of 72 inches length, divided by 2.6 gives you about 27.7 inches. You should put the focus about 27.7 inches either from the left or right.

Heidi,

No, I didn’t take her out to dinner. Instead she spent the afternoon and evening with her friend and I took care of the kids. That is worth 10 dinners . And the fry is always hiding all over the tank, too many for one spot only.

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Weekly Log Update – Week 7

A few things have happened since last week, in particular the algae has been defeated and a replant concluded in two distinct layouts, let’s call them Left Tank and Right Tank (thanks to tetratech who identified the split).

I treated the tank for one week with Flourish Excel, 2 x 50ml and 5x 20ml, with the result that pretty much all algae has gone. The only noticeable negative side effect was that the Egeria Najas didn’t like the Excel and melted away. A small price to pay .

The replant didn’t conclude in an optimal tank, but I think it gives me a better idea of where to go from here. Maybe I will leave it like this for a while so the plants can settle, but on the other hand I am already itching to move on. Darn addiction.

Since about 3 weeks I have the following fertilizer and water change routine:

Sat – 50% water change
Sat – 2tsp Baking Soda
Sat – 0.5tsp Seachem Equilibrium
Sat, Mon, Wed – 1tsp KNO3 and 0.25tsp K2SO4
Mon, Wed – 0.125tsp KH2PO4
Sun, Tue, Thu – 0.5tsp Plantex (+ Iron)

I would say that I inject about 4 to 5 bps of CO2.

Here is a series of tank development pictures.

Week 1 (one week after setup), plants starting to grow in

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Week 3, tank is becoming a jungle, in particular the right hand side (Water Sprite)

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Week 5, most of the weeds (Water Sprite and Wisteria) have been removed, first smaller replant took place

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Week 7, today, after major replant

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Ingo it is definately looking nice and 2 tanks in 1? heck who can beat that

Glad you gave the wife a night off to go and spend with her buddies without the twins and you're right that is worth 10 dinners at least so is quite fair

Again the tank is looking good...

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most of the weeds (Water Sprite and Wisteria) have been removed
]:|]:|]:|

Please refrain from calling Wisteria a weed. Mine is very smart and I've trained it to crawl. It's taking up a consirable amount of real estate in my tank and I'm proud to display it in my avatar

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Funny, they only become weeds when you get tired of pruning them...

It's not their fault they like your tank so much!


Back in the saddle!
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Heidi,

Thanks for letting me know that you like the tank. It is not really want I want in the long run, but at least it gives me more ideas of what might look good. Maybe I should get another 125G and make one like the left of this tank and the other like the right *hides from the wife*.

tetratech,

I knew I could pull your strings when I wrote this. But you know that it served only in a temporary role in my tank, namely helping me to get established. BTW, I wonder how established I am after replanting anything larger than 3 inches.

NowherMan6,



All,

Last night I did a rough headcount on the number of fry. Just counting the larger ones, I guess they are between 3 and 7 weeks old, I came up with over 50. I guess I am stocked .

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I knew I could pull your strings when I wrote this.
I guess you have my number on that one.

BTW, I wonder how established I am after replanting anything larger than 3 inches.
Sorry missed that one, what do you mean?

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tetratech,

With established I meant the plant mass. I know the water and the filter should be established now, but loads of plants have to reestablish the root system.

On another note, I went to the LFS to look for plants that could be used in my “left” tank. Nothing, nada…
All they had were tiny sprouts that would take months to grow to a feasible size. I will have to keep on looking as I also couldn’t find anything reasonable online.
While I was there I “inspected” the pearl gouramies. It was just a get-to-know kind of thing, trying to sex them, seeing how aggressive they are to each other, etc.

Here are some new pictures, beginning with another plant identification question. I posted this plant before but it was rather shaded at that time. Now it is in the open (the tall one way in the corner). I got it as a 3 inch long stem mixed into the large plant order I received when setting up the tank 7 weeks ago.

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A Ramshorn munching on algae (I hope) on the Glosso

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An Oto resting on my dwarf sag, BTW I was able to count all 6 that I should still have, I haven’t been able to do that in quite some time

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Tank from the right

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And last but not least tank from the left

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Nice pics LF, especially the one of the ramshorn. I found those snails to be incrediblly destructive, although in your 125 I wouldn't worry. I had them in my 12g and moved them out to my sons palidium tank along with the bristlenose.

I really like what you did with the corkcrews behind the rocks. I think you need more red in the corners and slope down with green toward the rocks.

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Quick Question:

Does anyone know anything about the plant Isoetes Lacustris, aka Octopus plant, aka Quillwort?

[link=Here is a drawing of it]http://caliban.mpiz-koeln.mpg.de/~stueber/lindman/519.jpg" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]

I saw 3 of them at my LFS yesterday and I might go out tonight to buy them.

Thanks,

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LF, That looks like an onion plant. I've seen those at Aquarium Adventure.

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tetratech,

Onion Plants are of the genus Crinum, this must be something different, I guess?

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Ok,

I bought the Isoetes Lacustris, they had 3 plants left. It is the tall round grassy plant in front of the Red Rubin Sword. Also, there has to be an Espei Fry in the picture

What do you think?

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Well,

I also bought another plant and forgot its name as soon as I arrived at home. It is a crypt, but for the live of it I cannot remember what the second part was. All I remember is that it started with S (I think). It’s longest leaf is about 10 inches long and it was sold to me as a plug and I put it in the tank as one piece. The leave structure is thin and long and green. It looks a lot like it could be Cryptocoryne Albida. And one can second this? The reason why I am not sure about this is that Albida should be only up to 10cm tall, this one is much larger.

This plant also had a second surprise for me, as can be seen in This Thread]:|.

Here it is, the thin leaved plant in the center of the picture

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LF,
Enjoy your new plants, can't help you with the IDs that's a job for Bensaf. LF some of your plant questions might be better answered at APC.

BTW - I just got back from one of my LFS and I bought another bolivian ram and as stupid as this sounds 4 more cardinals. This is a different LFS than the other one I bought the first 10 from. I almost bought a croaking gourami, but I did't like the way it looked.



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I just finished all 20 pages of this thread. I love your tank! It definitely makes my wee 25 gal. look like I just threw a bunch of plants in and planted them where they landed! Way back on page 4 or 5 Tetratech mentioned his tank was clear in the morning and hazy in the evening, this happened in my 2 gal. what I was able to find out was it was a bacterial bloom, the bacteria 'hide' at night and come out by day, forming a haze by evening. My source recommended less light and a mild anti-bac, I used mela-fix at half dose and this seemed to take care of it. Anyway, I didn't see any other advice and thought I'd throw it out there. I'm new (first year) to fish-keeping, and very new to this forum so I'm poking around and getting all kinds of big dreams for future tanks. I can identify with having three kids, a hubby and my herd dog all feeling abandoned when I go into fish mode. Anyway great thread, love the pics, I will definitely be checking back.



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tetratech,

Doesn’t sound stupid to me, you want to build up your group and one setback should not change your goals. On the other hand, I did the same to my ever dwindling group of Neons, just kept on buying new ones. Now I have enough, I must have bought about 25 over time and I have 2 left – no more. I will have to read up on the croaking gourami, sounds interesting.

luvmykrib,

Wow, now that is impressive. Reading all these pages is quite a challenge. Thank you for your comments about the tank and thread. Don’t worry about your tank being just a random plant storage facility ([link=My 20G]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63901.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] is the same), just hang around at FP and don’t be shy asking questions and in no time you will be a happy plant keeper . I like your Mammals in your profile and I certainly agree on the kids.

Ingo


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Ok,

I haven't posted to my thread in more than 24 hours and begin to get the feelings of withdrawal . Well, I have something to ask you guys:

I ordered a few more plants and I wonder if you have something to tell me about them (except the obvious).

They are:

Aponogeton Crispus
Cryptocoryne Lucens
Ech. Uruguayensis

Supposedly they will arrive on Saturday. If the plants are of any decent size then a major major major replant will have to be done. Plants will have to be moved throughout my 3 tanks, swapping things all around. For example, I would like to add some of the Star Grass to the big one from the 20, some of the Tenellus from the 29 to the big one, Bacopa to the 29, Ludwigia to the 20, and so forth.

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Apon crispus is a beautiful plant, I've seen them quite large. I see you're going for more rooted, bigger plants. Any reason for the change, or you just liked the way they look?


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Yup NowherMan6,

There are reasons.

1) Bensaf says so (he really did tell me to go for less stem plants, for maintenance purposes).
2) Ever since I broke up my tank into 2 last weekend (see major replant entries about 1 or 2 pages back) I began to like the right hand side much better. There, I have more stringy type plants and the new ones would fall more into that schemata (I hope)
3) Wow, the shortest list ever written by me, I have only 2 reasons.

Why, do you think that it is a bad idea?

As a piece of info for all readers: Aponogeton Crispus is supposedly one of the few (if not the only one) of the Apon family that does not require a dormant period in the aquarium.

Ingo


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LF,

The Ech. Uruguayensis where would you position that. It almost looks like a big swordplant?

Also LF, you've grown alot of Rotala Rotundala(Indicia) what do you think is the lowest amount of light it will grown in. You know I throw some cuttings in my 12 gallon and it only has about 1.1 wpg cf.



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tetratech,

yes, Uruguayensis is a big sword that I plan to put on the left side of the tank (somewhere), I will have to see how all the new plants look like once they arrive. I will get 3 of the other two plants each. All my Ludwigia and Bacopa will be removed (sniff), I think. That will leave me with very few stems.

Rotala grew very well for me in my 29G at 40W, so about 1.3wpg. If all goes well this weekend though it will be bye bye for it, as it got stringy and thin. The Bacopa will move in its place (I have 65W on the tank now), although the whole tank will change in its plant positioning.

Ingo


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Rotala grew very well for me in my 29G at 40W, so about 1.3wpg

That's good to hear, but why is it stringy and thin. Did you not want to bother replanting tops or did you do that and it still didn't grow well. What other conditions was it growing in. (Excel, ferts, etc.)

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tetratech,

I never took out existing stems, all I did was to add new cuttings to increase the size of the group (that is the main reason for the stringy part). They develop a bigger (not giant) root system and I didn’t like the idea of having a big mess in the water column.

Ferts etc.: Any condition was fine. Initially I only had Flourish Excel, Iron, and Flourish and I never dosed on a schedule. Then I added Flourish Potassium, and later Flourish Nitrate. In the end (now) I add only Flourish Excel and my dry elements from the 125G setup (less dosage) and only once every 2 weeks (too infrequent, I know, but I have been busy with this tank).

Ingo


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tetratech
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O.K. Thanks!

I think your on a good path by going with the look of your right tank.

There really isn't a right or wrong, it's what's gonna make you happy when you pull up that chair and look at your tank. You have alot of space to fill up so your job is definitely more difficult than mine. I think when you setup that rock valley that was more "Amano-like", but the rest is more "Dutch" I think you have to go one way or other other.

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Just goes to show you what a real challange it is to aquascape and get a unifying flow or theme in a tank as large and long as a 125. When i was looking through your log for bensaf's remarks re: trimming plants I noticed i was thinking to myself that if (when ) I someday get a tank that large I'm just going to fill it with huge pieces of branchy driftwood - maybe a sword or two - and have it as a large SA cichlid tank. Seems MUCH easier to hardscape than to aquascape with plants. If you had a big ol' piece of DW in there, or more extensive rock work it probably would make things much easier.

I give you all the credit in the world for trying, LF.

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 17-Nov-2005 13:59


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Thanks NowherMan6,

Driftwood was my original plan, but I cannot get my hands on any decent sized piece for the life of it. And believe me, I tried hard.

I have a few more of the same rocks at home and I am considering to add some of them this weekend. The problem there is the limited height of the rocks, none is as tall as the Rock Valley group.

Thanks again,

Ingo

And tetratech, Amano-style - Dutch-style, I call mine the Ingo-style .

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Nov-2005 14:07


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bensaf
 
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The Crispus is a good choice. Definitely a background plant and a space filler. Lightning fast grower, expect a new leaf to hit the surface every couple of days. In good conditions it has a beautiful shade of green and a nice soft texture. Had one in the old tank, but it didn't fit into the new set up unfortunately.

The Uruguaysenis is a real nice sword, one of my favourites, still have one. Not a tank buster by any means, but quite variable depending on conditions. I actually like to use it as a mid ground plant as I like the way the narrow upright leaves show off other plants to good effect. You'll have to see what size you get when it arrives.

Lucens is a real nice crypt. Get's a lot taller then the normal Willisii so it's not a foreground plant. Plant it tight, 3 plants at least together, don't spread it out too much. It's a slow grower (it'll take a few weeks before it does anything) but give it time and plant as above and it will turn into a beautiful thick bunch in a few months.

Going back a bit, nobody answered your plant id questions. The stem plant is strange. Looks a little like Bacopa but at the same time doesn't. Definitely nor Caroliania, maybe Monnieri . But there&'s a voice in the back of my head screaming Rotala Macrandra "Green" variety , but I'm trying to ignore the voices screaming in my head.

The Crypt is Retrospiralis.

As to the aquascape. Well of course you like the right side better , it's more natural, and uncluttered then the other side. It's quieter. Not mad keen on Corkscrew Val. It's too "gimmicky" looking. Something really thin leaved like Val. Nana or Natans, Cyperus Helfiri . Tall crypts like Balansae or Spiralis would be about the same width as the Corscrew but much more aged and natural looking.

As for the left side well I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's damn near impossible to 'scape a tank with plants only. There needs to be an anchor to build the scape around, driftwood or rocks. The left side has no anchor . You don't need the perfect piece of wood, a few crappy branchy pieces can be built up. A big percentage of the wood should be hidden anyway. You can try something with smaller rocks , moss them up , anubias in the gaps etc, you just need something "solid" looking. Failing that bigger plants like Swords/Nymphaea can be used and the stems built around them . Lastly a previous suggestion bigger, wider more striking stem plants in a thick group would help - Limnophilia Aromatica, Ludwigia Cuba , Ammania Gracillis etc.


Last edited by bensaf at 17-Nov-2005 22:00


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Welcome back Boss ,

Hope you had a good time.

To sum up my response to your entry:

You are right, and you are right, and, hm, you are right

I am not too wild about the Corkscrew Vals either, but you have to work with what you got. I was seriously trying to get some Cyperus Helferi, but to no avail. It would be my first choice. I might use the Aponogeton Crispus in its place, will have to see how that looks though.

Driftwood is always a big problem here, all pieces are small and if you find a long one it is also very thick (not to say ugly). I have maybe one piece at home that I could plug in there, but I think it would look lost in this big of a tank. I will try to add more of my rocks, I played with them last night (arranging some to a group) but it didn’t look all that good. An additional concern with placing wood/rock on the left hand side (more than the 2 that I have already) was that it would create a second focal point. This morning though it dawned on me that a 6 foot long tank should be able to handle more than one main area. Do you (all of the guys) agree?

Bensaf, I’m glad that you like my new plant pickings, most of them are based on your advice anyways .

I am with you when you assumed that it is Monnieri, I don’t think it would be a Macandra ‘Green’ as the leaves are so much smaller (than the red Macandra next to it) and it seems to grow side branches everywhere, like a bush.

About the Retrospiralis: maybe – I have seen them in Amano’s first book, but there he doesn’t mention plant names. No matter what, it looks very nice . It currently is too shaded in my tank, but all this will change on Saturday anyways (I hope).

Thanks,

Ingo


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tetratech
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As for the left side well I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's damn near impossible to 'scape a tank with plants only. There needs to be an anchor to build the scape around, driftwood or rocks. The left side has no anchor .
Well they do that with the "Dutch" style but as I said the plants need to be in tighter groups and then if you want the variety you pave some "streets" from mid to front. But yes, a piece of rock here and there will do wonders. Same think with Matty's tank. [link=http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/52902.html?200511161838 ]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/52902.html?200511161838 [/link]
He needs hardscape desperately.

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Gang,

I am currently in another low again,

The closer I get to Saturday’s replanting the more unsure I get of how I would do that. I have too many ideas in my head but I am afraid that I will end up with just another mixed-up tank again (would be the 3rd time around).

But there is no turning back because a) the plants are coming, b) the tank needs something done, and c) I don’t want to .

I guess I am just trying to prepare myself for the fact that at the end of Saturday I am not going to have an Amano tank (go figure ).

Tetratech,

What do you think about the “not-one-but-multiple” focus idea?

Ingo


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I don’t want to


That's the spirit!

I really feel like the left side would benefit from a big honkin' piece of driftwood, something like this]http://cgi.ebay.com/DRIFTWOOD-CRAFTS-GARDENING-AQUARIUM-TERRARIUM-BIRDS_W0QQitemZ7725677319QQcategoryZ66790QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem[/link] or [link=this

It can be overwhelming, but ya gotta do it until you get it right. Or maybe you don't, and just do it so that there's always a little something left to be done, that way you won't get bored. Either way, be creative. You've already got the plant health part of it down pat, that's the hard part - now you just need to find a way to make them look as nice as possible.


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tetratech
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LF, Does this goal statement still hold true for you?

The focus of this tank is neither to win an aquascaping contest nor to win a fish contest. I would like to create an environment where I can play with lots of plants and enjoy the various fish that it will house as I believe this concept will give me the most pleasure for the buck.

If not, take out your plants, take out rock valley get yourself a big piece of driftwood. Get your kids and wife out of the room. Now close your eyes and drop it in. Pause for "big splash" Now have fun rescaping around the driftwood. It's that simple. I really think you will be amazed at how it comes together.

Nowher, yes he does need a big piece of driftwood, but if he simply puts dw on the left and leaves rock valley on the right it will look to contrived.

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Thanks NowherMan6 for the encouraging words.

I am a major chicken when it comes to buying driftwood that I cannot see in person. To give you an example:

The first link you provide looks like a great piece. But it was fished out of the ocean? How did it get there? How long was it truly submersed (in other words, is it underwater ready)? What is the bug and fungus situation on it?

The second link could be nice too. But the owner doesn’t even mention (or I didn’t see it) the usage as an aquarium piece. Also, it looks like it had been rotting for a while, so will it fall apart soon? And again, what is the bug and fungus situation on it and how long was it truly submersed?

As I said, chicken .


Tetratech – You know how hard it is to find this “large” piece of driftwood here in our area.

“I would like to create an environment where I can play with lots of plants and enjoy the various fish that it will house as I believe this concept will give me the most pleasure for the buck.”

Well, you got me there . First off, the Espei had their own plan as to how “various” my fish will be. And all this fuss about left side, right side, plants in, over, and out again – that is my way of playing . As much as it seems that I get very frustrated sometimes as much I enjoy pulling myself out of these phases (with the help of you guys, thanks for that).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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tetratech
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LF,

I was in aquarium adventure last week. They had tons of driftwood. I think you need a big piece to lay down that will take up a considerable amount of real estate then you could plant in groups all along the back sides. You could also compliment the dw with the rocks you already have.

There's got to be an aquatics store closer to you that would have large pieces of dw.

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NowherMan6
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but if he simply puts dw on the left and leaves rock valley on the right it will look to contrived.


::looks at own aquarium with rocks on left, DW on right::

What's wrong with contrived?

But seriously, any aquascaped aquarium looks contrived to a certain extent. That's the whole point of aquascaping!What's the opposite of contrived anyway? Is it "natural?" Surely dutch style aquascapes look contrived, with their neat bushels of plants here and there...

Maybe then go with more rock buildup on the other side?


As for the DW, I've bough DW off of ebay many many times. Never gotten a bad piece. In any case, you boil it, bake it, scrub it like mad. Sometimes it leaches, sometimes alittle bit of fungus grows but that's normal. I wouldn't take a piece out of the ocean, but as the nearest bodies of water to me are the Hudson River, the East River and Newark bay I don't really have a choice as to where i get my driftwood


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tetratech
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Hudson River, the East River and Newark
Ooch!

Well I'm talking major rock on one side, major dw on the other. I think you need to blend both in. I think LF and I did say something about your white rocks.



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NowherMan6,

You are in our (tetratech and mine) area as well?

How funny . Are you in NJ or NY?

And have you ever tried to boil and/or bake a 26 inch long, 18 inch deep, and 16 inch high piece of driftwood?

Ingo


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LF,

All the driftwood I ever bought is that dark malaysian stuff. I soaked it for a few days and put it in. I never had a problem.



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I have thought about boiling a really bit chunk of DW before. I just never got around to it. At home we have this giant stainless steal tub. I think it used to be used for housing milk or something.. Any ways it is really big and I thought about filling it with water and lighting a fire under it for a few days. Ok maybe not that long but for a while at least.

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So do I tetratech,

I just got one piece this week and soak it right now for the 20G. Problem is that the ones I can buy in my area are all too small to even make a dent in my 125.

One day I will get a nice piece and then I will drive you all crazy again with "Where do I put it in the tank and what plant goes where", just the usual .

Ingo

EDIT: Wingsdlc - didn't see your post until I had posted this one. I guess the wife would have a problem if I buy a giant pot, put it in the yard, and make a big fire underneath . BTW, there are people that say boiling is actuallyy bad for the wood as its cell structure gets destroyed.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Nov-2005 11:07


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When you guys talk about boiling DW are you talking about DW you find when your like walking your dog. Cause I found some nice pieces that would probably look nice but I was afraid to use them in my tank. Not sure what types of wood is suitable to put under water long-term.

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tetratech,

All you ever wanted to know about finding driftwood is right [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63086.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

Hope this helps,

Ingo


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LF,

Yeah I understand what you are saying. I really don't know how we got the giant pot but we have it. In fact I don't know where we get most of the stuff that is laying around my parents house come to think of it.......

Personaly I think the boiling thing really depends on the type of wood and how long you boild it for. But that is just me.

Be on the look out I have a bunch of new pictures I am going to post of my 40 gallon. I would really like your guys's in put. Thanks



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NowherMan6
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And have you ever tried to boil and/or bake a 26 inch long, 18 inch deep, and 16 inch high piece of driftwood?


Point taken...


But still, i think you can make due with any kind of DW you find. I'd be wary of stuff that just fell off a tree, but I've heard of people finding older pieces near a stream or in a woodsy area and using them.

And im in NJ, northeast NJ. The closest really good LFS I know of is Tropaquarium on rt. 35 in eatontown, over an hour away...


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I'm sensing road trip

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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Wingsdlc – I guess sometimes its better not to know where things come from . Hey, I am sure we (at least I am) are pleased to give you our 2 cents, but don’t assume that we know what we are talking about . Just let us know when and where we should look.

NowherMan6 – I am in north NJ too (somewhere there), the closest decent LFS is Absolutely Fish on Rt. 46, about 10 min away.

tetratech – Road Trip, I am coming with you .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Nov-2005 12:11


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LF,

Oh I know we are all full of it. For the record that is. Any ways here is my updated stuff.

Click this.....I know you want to......it is just my thread don't worry....I have been starring at the computer screen for too long....


Edit:to, too, two, 2.....sometime I really hate English!

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 18-Nov-2005 13:02

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NowherMan6
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46W? That's actually not too far from me, maybe 20 mins depending on tunnel traffic and traffic on rt. 3. I'll have to check it out sometime, I just saw their website and it looks pretty awesome - thanks for the suggestion


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Yo, Nowher are youse ever on LONG GUY-LAND?

If you are check out Aquarium Adventure in Garden City. 11,000 square foot all aquatics. Here's the website.

http://www.aquariumadventure.com/

Little_Fish has been there, but he was kinda in a hurry, something about the wife and kids. I got alot of my stuff there including my tank, driftwood, many fish, etc.

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NowherMan6,

Yeah, go there and check it out. There are a few employees that are good and willing (and have the knowledge) to help you out. Unfortunately, the rest of them have no clue but pretend they do. Here is a conversation snippet that I picked up there earlier in the week between sales guy (SG), owner (O), and a customer (C) with a 10G, standing in front of a tank where the C is getting ONE White Cloud:

O to C: Hey, how about a frog?
C: Don’t they jump out?
O: No, these stay in the water.
O: What else is in the tank?
C: (forgot the exact listing he gave, but basically ONE of each kind, for example one was a tetra)
O: That’s good, what are you getting today?
C: This one and a Bumble Bee?
O: (explains that they need salt then asks SG) Why did you not tell him about that?
SG: I didn’t know.

Then I had to go away, partially because I had to laugh and partially because I got mad that the O thinks one fish of each kind is a good thing.

Otherwise be warned, they are on the expensive side of things. But even with all the ranting, it is my main LFS and in good to very good shape (plants and fish).

Ingo


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I've been keeeping up with your progress from the start Ingo, just wanted to poke my head in and say that i'm enjoying reading and very impressed by your tank.
I havent said anything before now because I am not an ideas person! Keep up the good work.


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Yo, Nowher are youse ever on LONG GUY-LAND?


Actually my old man lives out there on the island, but when Im out there it's usually to do family stuff, not so much aquarium shopping

But i'll definetely check out that place on 46. Tropaquarium on 35 is VERY pricey with livestock, and they dont have a great deal of plant selection, mostly cichlid and reef stuff. Staff are very friendly and knowledgable though, so that makes up for it. Also, the only plants they sell are anubias barteri and java fern, and they sell HUGE specimens for dirt cheap prices. Java's with twenty something stems, maybe 18-20 inches long each were being sold for 4 dollars. Big mother anubias plants for the same price. I guess they dont know better...


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Gang,

I am too tired to write a book tonight, I worked on tanks for 12 hours today.

Unfortunately, around Noon I found out that the plants for the 125G will arrive on Tuesday ant not today. It was too late to stop the process as the 29G was already changed and that set off a chain reaction and as such I had to mess with the 20G and the big guy as well.

The Bacopa is gone, it is now in the 29G, other plants have been moved (some are trimmed).

Please be so kind and have a look at other tanks and give me THERE a comment on what you think, as you know I value your input highly.

Here is [link=The 29G Link]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/61406_3.html " style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].
Here is [link=The 20G Link]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Aquascaping/63901_2.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

And because it was such a nice day , here is a picture of this tank now. What do you think?

Good night,

Ingo

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Hey LF just dropping in - Now that you have no algae complaints I tend to be all out of suggestions. I just think that your colorful plants need to grow in a bit. In a couple months you can have some eyecatching groups of colors.

The only thing I can think of is that I'd like something contrasting behind rock valley to create depth. The two rocks with java moss tend to blend in with the vals behind. That isn't even that major though, because in person I bet it looks great.

I really like the shape of the horizon in your tank. Everything looks really healthy....



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You must be tired! All those changes in one 12 hr stint, it would knock me out for sure, but I really think it has paid off, all the tanks look great. I want to be sure, the plant that is covering the 'ground' in front of the valley is glosso? It is not the one that looks like grass, but has more rounded leaves? Would it need more light than my aquq-glo flourescent bulb in my 25g? I have no idea what the wpg is and I don't use CO2. But I do need a ground cover and I like that one the most so far. Great 'scaping, I'll be checking back often to steal more ideas. Oops, was that in print? ]

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Lindy – you keeping up with this thread and giving me the thumb up is honor enough for me.

NowherMan6 – I inspected a newly opened LFS in my area, called The Fish Tank, in Saddle Brooks on Friday night. They are not ready yet as I believe they still have to learn a few things about stocking Fish and Plants. Plants are few and not in the best shape, fish tanks are mostly bare bottom stuffed to the rim with very young fish. For example, they have 3 tanks with Cories (and that is all they have on the label, no species name, all are just Cories) that no larger than ¾ of an inch.They are cheap though, but that alone is not a reason for me to buy something.

Matty – I hear you when you speak of contrast around Rock Valley. I will have to wait and see what the new plants that I should receive on Tuesday look like. Then, another replant will get on the way.

luvmykrib – You are welcome to “steal” all the ideas you seem feasible for you, mine didn’t come to me out of the blue either . Yes, this is Glosso and I doubt that it would grow nicely in a 25G with only one T8 fluorescent light. If you happen to find it cheap in a store, go ahead and buy a little bit and give it a try, but don’t be disappointed if it doesn’t work out. I remember trying it in my 29G when I had about 1.3wpg in that tank. It grew a little and I took it out again. One problem there was that I didn’t show enough patience, maybe I should have waited longer.

Ingo


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Gang,

It’s funny how things happen. I just mentioned in tetratech’s log how well my Espei school (trying to compete with tetratech’s Cardinals ).

Well, it turns out today is an important day in my Espei fry development. At least 10 have joined the big guys and school together. Oh how wonderful the world can be (until the next disaster strikes ).

I will try to get a shot later, for the time being I am doomed to laundry folding and child care, payback for 12 hours of planting yesterday .

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I am doomed to laundry folding and child care, payback for 12 hours of planting yesterday



Pause to catch breath.



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tertatech - you know nothing is for free

Week 8 Update,

Another, although smaller, replant has happened this weekend, it was supposed to be a big one but the plants I expected from the online provider will not arrive until Tuesday. Their excuse did sound a little shady; something about the Amano Pearl Grass needs still to grow. What? I didn’t know 2 days make such a big difference in this plant’s life.

Anyways, because of this I did not perform a water change, I will do one on Tuesday evening (and then again next Saturday to get back on the regular track).

The small changes performed include the removal of the Bacopa (now in the 29G), the addition of 2 rocks on the left half, and general trimming activities.

The Espei are just great, although the number of fry begins to frighten me. At least 80 are swimming around there, like they have never heard of the fact that they are hard to breed, maybe I should tell them .

Here is a summary of tank development on a biweekly base.

First off week 0, means the day I planted the tank:

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Next week 2, the fast growers (Wisteria and in particular Water Sprite), have taken over:

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Week 4, most of these fast growers have been removed and first attempts of design are starting:

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Week 6, more moves towards the generation of a design are under way, although not too successful (yet):

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Week 8 (today), plants have been moved around a lot since week 6, hopefully for the better:

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Definitely starting to see some nice things.

I would keep all below white line. Everything above out.
That's what I see anyway, you might have something else in your head.




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I 2nd tetratech. I really like the used of flowing lines.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Thanks tetratech and Wingsdlc for the input, I appreciate it. I think it is a little too early to think about a final layout as new plants are still to come and they are gonna change the scape again anyways. Hang in there with me until we got these and then shoot away.

…, you might have something else in your head.


Yeah, hot air

I thought I might share some close-ups with you before I go to sleep.

A double blossom on one of my Anubias Nana

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A close-up of some Red Rubin Sword leaves

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Amano Pearl Grass behind and next to the still to be identified red thing

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The Glosso carpet if front of (and between) Rock Valley

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Come to think of it. If I had to suggest a setup to someone with a small tank (maybe a 29G) who has all the tools (lights and CO2), this would be a great tank in itself.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 20-Nov-2005 19:53
[/font]


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Last one, Glosso pearling

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*craves the high light setup*

.....oh for there to be glosso....





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Ya know, I've never gotten my anubias to flower. Ive had tem right from the start, and not once have they flowered. i guess anubias hate me and my water. wargh

Lookin good as always, that glosso running up the rock alley is really quite nice, very effective.


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Guys,

Thanks, not much going on here today, I am rather busy at work.

But anyways:

Matty, I am trying the Glosso now in my 20G, I will keep you posted on success. Lighting is 2x20W fluorescent, height 12”.

NowherMan6, what can I say, I just have the magic tank . Espei having fry like rabbits and anubias flowering on regular intervals.

Ingo


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Hey LF,

In tetras thread I just noticed you said something about Amano... which made me go online and look at some of his stuff. Well, call it inspiration or what have you, but i just got an idea for your tank, looking back at the most recent picture.

I think someone already pointed this out, but the right side of your tank with the rock valley already looks amano-ish... so maybe just apply the same rules to the other side. make the rock valley your high point, and just slope down the other side. Add bigger rocks so that it slopes downhill, and allow the rocks to stand out more. Cover them with more moss and keep the tenellus bushy as it is, and have the back planted with more vals. I guess what I'm getting at, and again maybe this has already been said a few hundred posts ago, is that to unify the whole tank you have to apply the same rules from the one side to the other. As it is there's a completely different set of plants on the left. It seems like it's so much more difficult to make it work witht he "two-tank" look

Anyway, that's how I just had a vision of it in my head. Don't know if I explained it right... And it's not at ALL to say it doesnt look great now... just wanted to share the thought.



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NowherMan6,

I hear you. But that would also mean that I would have to say good-bye to all my tall plants, even the new Aponogeton Crispus and Ech. Uruguayensis, maybe also the Cryptocoryne Lucens would not fit anymore.

I don’t know, maybe I go for tetratech's chaos arrangement, although I don’t really know what that means .

Ingo


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I don’t know, maybe I go for tetratech's chaos arrangement, although I don’t really know what that means
]:|
What?

It's really whatever floats your boat. I happen to like dramatic arrangements, which is simple, but striking and the fish do the rest. Someone referred to it as almost a
"Zen" affect which I don't totally disagree with. I think Bensaf and LF, like more color and variety. Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that"

Last edited by tetratech at 21-Nov-2005 15:29

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No tetratech,

You once mentioned something about Amano - chaos - no focus point.

What was that again?

Ingo


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Hmmm am deeply Jealous.

I do like Rock Valley, its like a whole little fantasy world.......

still jealous, can't think of anything constructive to say about future plans. Just keep posting pictures, they give me hope as the tank keeps getting better and better, maybe mine will!

GFG

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 21-Nov-2005 18:25

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GFG,

Thanks for your comment. The owner of a tank is most of the time his/her own worst critic , except of course if you have FP buddies like tetratech, Matty, Bensaf, Megil, NowherMan, upikabo, (myself), and so forth . I can tell you than I am not happy yet (although I am not too sad either).

I can’t wait to see the plants that I get today (hopefully). I am sure it will throw off all plans that I had and make me reconsider the whole layout yet again . But I enjoy these “games” and I don’t mind constantly messing with the layout, as long as it doesn’t harm my fish and the plants.

And yes, I promise you that your tank will be more to your likings once you put the effort in to foster the plants and to arrange the aquascape (as you already started in your [link=Own Thread]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/66485.html?200511220446" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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You once mentioned something about Amano - chaos - no focus point.

Yes, nature's random disorder

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That's what I was looking for

nature's random disorder


Sounds like something you could call any settled tank, no matter how the plants are (mis)arranged .

Unfortunately I am sure there is an order in any disorder as well.

Ingo


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A double blossom on one of my Anubias Nana

How long did a take you to see your first flower?

My Scapes
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The first one that was grown completely in my tank - about 5 to 6 weeks.

The first one over all - 3 seconds 2 of the 5 Anubias came with flowers already, but they are long gone (within a week). Also, Otos like to nibble at them.

Ingo


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Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that"


Say WHAT???????


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"Nowher, not sure which way you go, "not that there's anything wrong with that" "

Scaping-wise

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[font color="#C00000"]I AM AT PEACE[/font]

At least for the moment ..

But if you think it has something to do with me being happy about the Aquascaping, you are wrong. But keep on reading and you will find out. Events of this evening step by step:

First off, the plants arrived today, but what a disappointment. Unlike usual when ordering from this provider, each specimen was really small. I did not get the Amano Pearl Grass (which was why they said it couldn’t be shipped on Friday, I knew that was wrong) instead I got a check for the pearl grass money and a free tiny Red Mellon Sword (nice).

So I decided I will plant these guys anyways, and what can I say, 4 hours and 4 beers later I was done (including water change). So sorry, I am a little tipsy right now .

Here is the moment of Zen: while doing the water change, the fish had less and less space to swim and eventually older fry joined up with the adults. Tetratech, you gotta get a large school. I had tears in my eyes, it is sooooooo pretty. You cannot really capture a moment like this on camera, but I tried.

The details of the changes will be following tomorrow, too drunk and too tired right now (had no dinner either).

Here is a shot of lots of fry with adults

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Grrr,

Well, here it is

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Here is the finished tank

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Awwww, what an awesome photo of the Espei family reunion! Love it!

-P
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So I guess you're going with the Amano look as NowherMan6 suggested, eih?

-P
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Defintiely looking better. I'm still not crazy about the tall plant right next to the corkscrews, but that's me.

Now if I could only get my cardinals to act like your espei. Oh what a thanksgiving it would be.

Last edited by tetratech at 23-Nov-2005 04:52

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You should try to make them change the rules on schooling fish around these parts: minimum 6 for the fishs' health, minimum 30 for stunning visual effect

Happy thanksgiving all, I probably won't get back on here before tomorrow!


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upikabu, tetratech, and NowherMan,

Thanks for the input. Tetratech, I assume you mean the Rotala Macandra, right? It is a sensitive plant that requires loads of light to be beautiful (like mine ) and I am afraid if I move it too often I am going to kill it. In any way, I will refrain from any major change until the new plants have grown to a recognizable size. It will be an interesting period to see all these little plants jump up.

Am I going Amano? I don’t know, I actually think that I don’t have the knowledge and right plants to do that. Maybe I will create a style called “Poor Man’s Amano Tank” whereby poor is the equivalent of inexperienced .

Can anyone tell me more about the Red Melon Sword? This was the freebee they gave me because they didn’t sent the plants on Friday (as I said earlier, they told me that the Amano Pearl Grass has to grow some more, and then it wasn’t shipped anyways).

Yeah, the schooling is lovely. Most of the time they don’t school together yet, I think it is simply a question of speed as the grown-ups race from left to right and back and the little one are still to weak to follow. At least they have gained the confidence to hang with the big guys without worrying of being eaten.

Well, here are some pictures I took during yesterdays replanting.

First, the new plants in a 2G bucket, I hope one can see that they are tiny. In here are 3 Crypt Lucens, 3 Apon Crispus, 1 Ech Uruguayensis, and the freebee Red Melon Sword.

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Here are the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia layed out for replanting

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A shot of the right side of the tank, nothing has changed there.

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Here is a picture of the left tank () where all the changes took place. The Ludwigia was removed and relocated to the right, a little more like a street. In the way back just in front of the Reactor, and invisible in the picture because of its size, is the Ech Uruguayensis. On the right of the filter intake (in the back) are the 3 Apon Crispus lined up (probably too close to each other). In front of them are the Crypt Lucens arranged, behind and between the 2 rocks on the left. The red melon sword is hidden behind the Crypt Albida (or Retrospiralis? ). All the way on the left are the Alternanthera reineckii "roseafolia” lined up, mostly obscured by the second Anubias Barteri that I moved over there. All Pennywort has been removed – This might actually bring the end of the Espei breeding season as almost no brad leaved plants are left.

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Here is a closer shot of the middle section of the left tank. I think this one could make a nice small tank in itself as well. You can see the Anubias double blossom on the right.

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Very nice, I think it's starting to look very pretty. When I first saw the bowl I thought you were starting to prepare for thanksgiving.

BTW - Have you stopped dosing excel, everything looks very clean and clear in the pics.


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tetratech,

No – no turkey in the bucket

Yeah, I have stopped using Excel after only one week of dosing, about 11 days ago. Yesterday I noticed some algae on my plants again, not too a point that bothers me too much (but more than 4 strings). The one that hasn’t come back so far is the BBA, which was the one I was concerned with the most as it seemed to choke plants to death.

Maybe you have noticed that from the pictures, but I rearranged my Reactor and filter intake to be side by side, following your lead (and Megil’s excellent explanation of its benefits) with having the CO2 being sucked intot the filter first. I wonder if I will notice any difference.

Ingo


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Nothing going on in my log in 2 days, that’s a record .

Well, there isn’t much to report anyways as no new drama has occurred and no good news either.

I would like to get your advice on a little scape change that I would like to perform tomorrow (if anyone even reads this thread until then). I would like to expand the Glosso area to the left and right as indicated by the red lines. The close-ups (left and right areas) show that the plant is already growing there anyways, but it cannot get enough light as it is shaded by the Dwarf Sag / Pygmy Chain Sword mix.

What do you think? Good or bad idea?

Ingo

Here is the whole area:

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Just the left with Glosso

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Just the right with Glosso

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Ingo,

I am not quite sure which would look better, the tenellus
right now look very nice, but the glosso carpet look s small
an dartificial. I can understand why you would want to expand
the glosso carpet, I personally would only expand it towards
the left side of the tank (when you are facing it left) since
I think the right side tenellus looks very impressive overall
and is partly what made that side of the tank so nicely
balanced.

HTH,
Megil.

EDIt: spell and grammar check >.<

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 25-Nov-2005 14:24

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Thanks Megil,

I haven't even thought about the possibility to extend only one side. That's where my symmetry thinking limits my imagination. But that is a good point.

One of the reasons why I want to extend the area is because the sags / swords are sprouting out all over and based on my experience with my smaller tank I know that in no time I would have a dense, 4 to 5 inches tall, foreground, all the way to the glass. I am not so sure if this would look all that great. Thinning these guys out is a full time job .

I guess I could give your suggestion a try, better to take out less and still have the ability to continue rather than more and later regretting it.

Thanks,

Ingo

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Gang,

I performed my 50% water change today (weekly updates will follow tomorrow) and thought I share one picture with you. It is a close-up of my Xmas Moss about 30min after the change. The only thing that has changes from previous similar water changes is the fact that I added 50ml of Flourish Excel immediately after the refill. Last time I added Excel it seemed as if it has the opposite effect and actually reduced the plant bubbling. I don’t know why today was different .

Ingo

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Weekly Tank update – Week 9

Time flies by when you are having fun, I cannot believe the tank is already up for this long.

Anyways, not too much has happened in the last week, I got a few new plants on Tuesday and spent 4 hour adding them to the tank. To do so, some plants had to go (Pennywort) and others had to be moved (Narrow Leaf Ludwigia) yet again. The new plants are tiny compared to the size they hopefully will reach some day (soon) and as such it looks like there is a wide open back on the left tank side.

I thinned out some of the Dwarf Sags and Pygmy Chain Swords on the left front of Rock Valley as I would like this area to fill with Glosso. After the 50% water change I added 50ml of Flourish Excel as some algae is making its return to the tank. That means that either my parameters are not fine tuned yet or that the replanting (and addition of 2 rocks) on Tuesday caused some imbalance (less likely). I am not planning on adding Excel every day and will keep an eye open to see if this one-time-dose has any effect.

Now on to the weekly tank pictures, this time week 0, 3, 6, and 9. After that I will add 5 detail shots, so overall there will be 9 photos to keep you entertained .

Initial Setup, week 0. I remember that I thought I had quite a large plant load .

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Week 3. By then some plants were already being trimmed as they got too large and shaded others.

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Week 6. The beginning of the major replanting that was to follow in the next 3 weeks.

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Week 9 (this weekend). All background plants seem to be rather equally in height, except for hole right in front of the hardware. That’s where all the new plants are.

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Some details. First the Rotala Macandra, which, although not nicely arranged (I know tetratech, I know ), has some very nice color to it.

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Next the Rock Valley where the Gloss is getting very dense. Do I have to prune this plant? Never thought of that . I wish it would start to fill the area in the depth of the valley (where you can still see the bare gravel) but maybe there is not enough light for it, we will see.

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Next a shot centered around the Crypt Retrospiralis. On the left you can make out the Apon Crispus in the way back and the Crypt Lucens in front of it. The Red Melon Sword is hidden behind the Retrospiralis, I guess I will have to replant it when it grows a little taller (I didn’t plan for that plant, it was a freebee). The Uruguayensis Sword is just off the picture to the left, too small anyways to be seen.
Also, you see some of the older fry hanging in the current with the big guys .

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Here is a shot looking into the tank from the left. Sorry that the quality is not all that great, I don’t have a lot of space there to hold the camera. If you look carefully you can see a very small green plant on the left front, just behind the second Alternanthera reineckii stem. That’s the Uruguayensis Sword.

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Last but not least, another close-up of my Glosso bubbling, I just cannot get enough of this. Also, there is a maybe 2 weeks old fry on the left.

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LF,
Nice pics, I really like the Rotala Macandra and your pics are conviencing me to maybe try and incorporate some into my setup. Where did you originally get yours?

I personally would extend the glossy left and right and let it kinda of slowly blend with the chain swords into the corners. That would bring the whole foreground together and than you could add little things here and there at different depths.




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Thanks tetratech,

I know Amano uses the Rotala Macandra in quite a few setups to add some color to it. But he uses it mostly rather hidden in the back where only the upper parts are visible (maybe because the stems are not too pretty when planted densly).

I am with you on the Glosso spreading out, but I will take it slowly to avoid “empty” gravel areas in the front in the process. Getting the Swords and Sags out in the front is quite a challenge as they are interwoven with the Glosso chains. And the fact that the Sags have underground runners doesn’t help either. You think you are pulling out one plant and actually cause a chain reaction somewhere else and before you know it all Glosso is lose as well.

Ingo


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More pictures from the fry frontier.

Here are about 20 some in the tank corner.

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And here a closer shot of a baker’s dozen in formation.

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all the plants look fantastic Little Fish. and as for the fry wow, they look amazing. I have always wanted to do that, get one type of fish and see it populate the tank. I have all the self control of ...... well I can't think of anything that actually has less self control then me. except maybe me in a shoe shop. (bought three pairs of boots yesterday still having shoppers guilt)

I just love your tank. think its brillant the way you have learnt so much about the hobby and can answer all my questions!

really good job. I can't believe you can hardly see the rocks at the valley bit.


GFG,*looks at her tanks *

Last edited by goldfishgeek at 27-Nov-2005 19:28

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Nothing like a big school in open space. One of the reasons I'm in this hobby. I guess at this point there isn't too many predators (if any) for the fry. I have a few guppies and I never see any fry, I'm sure the pencilfish are picking them off very quickly as they weave through the plants.

BTW - Your using Seachem's equilium right, what is your KH out of the tap anyway?

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tetratech,

Sometimes I seem to observe an adult Espei on the hunt. He/she stands still in the water, just behind a plant and seems to wait for something, then he/she darts forward in an attempt to catch something. I don’t know what it is that they are after, I only assume it must be the very small fry. I never have seen one being eaten though.

Yes, I am using Seachem Equilibrium, but to my knowledge it doesn’t influence the KH. It supposedly raises the GH (is untreated at about 2 dH, haven’t tested in a while) and also adds some traces that are not available in the Plantex mix. My KH from the tab is a maximum of 2 dH as well, sometimes I couldn’t even detect any hardness as the test tube color changed with the first drop . I haven’t tested that one either in about 5 weeks. After each 50% water change I add 2 tsp of Baking Soda to raise the KH to somewhere between 3 and 4.

Ingo


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GFG,

I completely forgot to thank you for the compliments.

And you give me way too much credit with regards to be able to answer all your questions. There are a lot of other folks here that know quite a bit more than I do.

3 pairs of boots? I didn’t know England had such long winters .

Ingo


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Sometimes I seem to observe an adult Espei on the hunt.
That's probably a good thing, considering your babies will start to have babies soon. You could probably start suppling a few LFS with stock.

I asked about the equilibrum, because my tap is kh 3 and gh 5, so I guess I'm O.K.

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I asked about the equilibrum, because my tap is kh 3 and gh 5, so I guess I'm O.K


Yeah, I didn't realize the importance of GH until I read an article on chuck gadd's site talking about how different nutrient deficienies show up in plant leaves. When I had anubias in my tank a lot of the leaves grew in cupped and crinkled and I didn't know why - it's a calcium deficiency.

My water is also very soft, LF. I wonder if we get our water from the same source, you're pretty close to me...? GH is also 2, kH 3. What's the pH of your water as it comes out if the tap (after sitting over night, of course)? Mine is over 7, which I find strange because it's so soft, I would think it'd be more acidic no?


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Hey LF, that means you could send me a grounp of the Espei since they are not available around here. Then I could have them too! I have looked for them but can't find them anywhere! Only thing I can find are the Harlequin Raspboras...

I jsut love checking the updates on your tank. It is SO awesome!


Christina
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tetratech – my knowledge of the importance of GH and KH is still very limited, all I know is that I should have some of each .

NowherMan6 – my ph is 7 from the tab. “after sitting over night” - - where would I have 60 gallons of water sitting over night ? No, mine goes from the tab straight into the tank, with the addition of Prime, of course.

dvmchrissy – Thanks for the compliments on the tank, it is a work in progress (that never finishes, I guess) . About the Rasbora – did you ask in the LFS if they have them once in a while or if they could order them for you? My LFS has them rarely (saw them twice in the last 9 months and I bought almost all of the second set). The store guy tells me that there is not a high demand on them and that would be why they don’t carry them that often. I somehow doubt that as they are much prettier than the “regular” Harlies (just my opinion, in case some people would think the opposite). I heard from other sources that they are actually much rarer that the normal Harlies and that would be the reason why you can’t find them in the stores that often. Shipping some your way? Well – lets wait and see, I currently have only about 100 .

Ingo


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Thanks for the compliments on the tank, it is a work in progress (that never finishes, I guess)
That is so true. Even when your (anyone's) tank looks great you will still look at it one day and want to change it. That's why you need 10 tanks. Right now I have 2 actually there is 4 total in my house if you count my son's newt swamp and my other son's 1 gallon betta thing.

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Even when your (anyone's) tank looks great you will still look at it one day and want to change it

Like me right now trying to adjust my current. It is either to little or too much, I can’t seem to find the right settings. Details can be read [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/66675.html?200511291119" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

The particular problems with stronger current are:

Surface Agitation
Fish swimming in current all the time (no rest)
Plants being blown around too much. I just don’t like the look of leaning plants. I am at work so I cannot take a picture but look above at the Rock Valley and focus on the Corkscrew Vals. Right now, I have 2/3 of them leaning to the right and 1/3 to the left as the current cuts right in there (can’t be seen in picture above as it was taken before powerhead was added to right of tank).

When there are no problems with plants or fish, just create a new one, like mess with the water flow .

Ingo


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When there are no problems with plants or fish, just create a new one, like mess with the water flow
If no problems why are you messing with it, go scape your 29G.

No but really if the flow is too much too little, what if you did what I was doing. Vertical mount the spray bar and angle it so it hits the front glass, wouldn't that whip it around the tank (even without a bowfront) and not directly on the plants and the fry.



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go scape your 29G


]:|

Well, I want that one to get settled first before I mess with it yet again .

I think your suggestion of the vertical – forward spraybar position on this kind of tank shape would not work. I would imagine that it creates a huge turbulence in the front left corner and that any further flow is sparse and unpredictable. But most of all it wouldn’t reach the right side, I think.

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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Just get a big wave machine like they have in big saltwater tanks in public aquariums. That'll circa'late yer tank, no doubt about it


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I would imagine that it creates a huge turbulence in the front left corner and that any further flow is sparse and unpredictable. But most of all it wouldn’t reach the right side, I think.

You could always get a 125g bowfront.



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Really funny guys

I am so glad to have you as my plant buddies

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 - you were entry 600

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 29-Nov-2005 14:22


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EDIT: NowherMan6 - you were entry 600


Oh, that's right... had I known that I probably would have said something less stupid... ::roll eyes::


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Gang,

I just placed an order for 2 new plants.

The one that I was really keen on was Cyperus helferi, I ordered 5. And I saw another plant that looked nice, so I ordered 5 of them too, called Potamogeton gayii. If you know anything about this plant, please share it with me.

All plants should arrive sometime next week, if tetratech or others don’t interfere with its delivery (see tetratech’s log for details).

This means that sometime next week there is going to be yet another replant – oh yeah .

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 30-Nov-2005 09:14


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Gang,

I actually wanted to write about my thread algae problem that seems to come back (long long thin green single threads) but I changed my mind.

Instead I show you some pictures of my latest purchase. I went to the LFS and got 3 Pearl Gouramies, 2 females and 1 male. It took a while to explain to the sales guy how he can sex them (only the owner and I knew), but I will show you easily with the pictures how it can be done. They are still very young and the finnage is not as developed yet.

So, no more babble, here they are (let me know what you think):

First, the gang in the bag. They are currently in the 20G QT with my 5 platies (yes, I know my prettiest tank is also my QT ). The male is the one in the middle. His dorsal fin is longer and pointier that the female, which are rounded at the back.

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Next they just have been released and make new friends (I hope).

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Here they start to explore the tank, the male is in the middle again.

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Last but not least a female behind some Xmas Moss. I hope I will get better shots soon .

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Megil TelZeke
 
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Ingo I love pearls. Though I love sparklings better
. They will be a great addition to the tank, and will
definitely keep any future espei fry low in count .

Best of luck with them.

I hear you on the algae
*shakes fist at the staghorn algae that appeared in his 20G
this week. And also at the green hair algae that has decided to return eve so triumphantly*

Megil

Last edited by Megil Tel'Zeke at 30-Nov-2005 19:58

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Nice fish! Thanks for the lesson. I need all the help I can get.

Edit: I must be doing something right because I am not having hardy any algae problems.

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 30-Nov-2005 20:14

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Great purchase ! Got a trio of Pearls myself. Absolutely great fish. They'll give you no problems , they are extremely peaceful, won't look twice at the other fish. They like company of other pearls so that's not a problems. You'll love them, they work great in a planted tank. They also bring a grace and an almost feline quality in the way they move. Perfect for a large planted tank. the males turn into complete stunners once they hit 3-4inches, but they do grow slowly.

Gayi is an absoloute weed, in every sense of the word. You can almost see it grow. It will try to take over so keep an eye on it.It spreads by runners so kinda sneaks up on you. Takes a while to get going, so don't move it about much. Had some before - thought it was going to strangle me in my sleep Very easy , doesn't need much of anything, pearls like there's no tomorrow.

But it's nice shape, one that you haven't had in your tank up to now so a nice addition.

Good job on the Helferi- dump the Corkscrew


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Padding the thread count there alittle. As I said you jersey folk are so competitive.

Anyway, 'Bout time you got more fish. As I said, I'm not a huge gourmai fan, but I certainly could see their grace. Yes they have grace.

Last edited by tetratech at 30-Nov-2005 21:18

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Nice pearls LF, I got one myself to replace my apistos that recently passed. He's doing great with my 18 cardinals. Bensaf's right, he doesn't look twice at them.



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Gang,

Thank you for the overall positive response to my latest acquisition.

Megil – yes, the Sparkling is a very nice Gourami as well, but too small for my 125G. The idea here is to add fish that are larger (and more or less peaceful) to the tank to accent the school of smaller fish. You know what I mean?

Wingsdlc – I guess you are doing something right. Which means I am doing something wrong (with regards to algae). I think someone ( Tom Barr? ) mentioned recently that Staghorn thrives on too much Iron, maybe that is my problem as I fertilize with “Plantex plus Iron”. Maybe I should switch to Tropica Master Grow for my micros.

Bensaf – thanks for the thumbs up on the fish. Hope you don’t think I am imitating your collection (first the very similar Espei to your Hengeli, now the Pearls, what’s next? ) . And thanks for the info on the Gayii, makes me wonder if I really would like to add them. If not, maybe I put them in the 20 or 29.

tetratech – Thanks for the acknowledgement that there are graceful Gouramies out there .

Matty – Thanks for seconding Bensaf’s observation on how peaceful these guys are. I wonder if they will go after the tiny fry though? I guess it wouldn’t matter as I have for sure enough older fry to fill the tank. That was actually one point of why I got them now, even if they eat all the babies they will not get in the big tank for another 4 weeks. And by then I should have a nice large school .

Ingo


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I'm jealous of your nice Pearls, Ingo! How big are they now? I saw some juvies last weekend but they're not as nice as yours. I just saw a gorgeous pic of a mature male with the red belly. I wish I had a tank big enough for them (kicking himself again for not getting a larger tank than the 3ft one 9 months ago ]:|).

-P
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upikabu,

They are now maybe 2 to 2.5” long. I have been at the LFS about 1 week ago when I looked at them for the first time. Now, I cannot be 100% sure, but it seems to me that I got mine from the same stock as last week they didn’t look as colorful as they did yesterday. I assume they had to recover from the transport first.

Regarding their adult size and suitable tank size: Supposedly they rarely reach 5”, mostly are around 4” when fully grown. This would make 3’ tank rather suitable, given that it is not too crowded already .

“kicking himself again for not getting a larger tank than the 3ft one 9 months ago” – Yeah, when I started a looooong time ago (9 months ago ) I didn’t quite follow through on the idea “Get the largest tank you can afford and have space for” either, but I sure made up for that .

Ingo


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LF,

Maybe you are just over doing the ferts or just too much of one or the other. Right now I am not dumping anything in the tanke except Excel and DIY Co2. I also have Seachem as my Sub but that is it. I know for sure that I am not getting near the growth you are but things are growing and looking good. It also might be the plants that I have in there too. I don't know.......

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Everyone has plant problems now and then. Even the most experienced. There are just too many variables to account for, especially someone who has a lot of different plant species with different needs. Not everything is bliss in "Fields of Wisteria" either. My stem plants have slowed and their incredible growth, but the wisteria and hairgrass continue (but that's another thread).

What surprises me about LFs tank is that he has alot of plant mass. I would think the algae wouldn't be able to compete.

Last edited by tetratech at 01-Dec-2005 08:47

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Well,

I just had an idea. Although it was discussed in another thread as well, I think it could also have to do with excess Phosphates. Tom Barr and Bensaf (means I must be wrong ) say that levels of 2 to 3 ppm should not cause any problems.

Since about 1 or 2 weeks I am adding Phosphates occasionally. Not the full dosage as recommended by EI, but enough to raise my ppm levels. I don’t know by how much and what the totals are though, haven’t measured in weeks, maybe I should just check on it again.

Ingo


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Gang,

I just checked my mail and found out that my plants will arrive already tomorrow. I guess I will just float them for the night and start the replanting on Saturday. That will work out well as it is a water change day anyways .

Now, if I only knew what plant to put where .

Ingo


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Megil TelZeke
 
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Well Ingo, you will want to plant the plants in such a manner
that your existing aquascape is enhanced, not detracted from.
Which isn't much advice, but helps narrows placement to an
extent in order to keep a nice horizon.

And I know sparklings are to small for the 125G, but i still
like them better

Megil.

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Hey LF,

Not much to add, as your new plant selection is beyond anything I've heard of, so I can't offer any comments on that... though if Bensaf gives the thumbs-up I'll assume they're the greatest plants ever, add instant beauty to a tank and occasionally get up and vacuum the living room carpet for good measure.

The fish do look lovely though... did you explain how you were able to tell which are M/F or did I miss that?


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ok ok Megil

Planting and replanting and replanting my tank shows how much I still have to learn. Keeping the horizon, messing with all existing plants over and over again, removing the horizon, heck – I even consider dismantling Rock Valley (too narrow).

On the other hand, that’s part of what I like about the tank, it is a work in progress, probably forever .

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 - sorry, posted while you did. Yes, I did explain the m/f difference that is visible at that young age. It is the male's elogated dorsal fin that is more pointy at the end while the female's is shorter and rounded. Once they reach maturity you can also see that the MALE (upper case because for example rams are the other way around) have a nice pinkish belly area.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 01-Dec-2005 12:08


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Oh well, lost one Gourami already, [link=Here]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/The%20Hospital/66757.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] is the Hospital entry.

Ingo



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Convinced LF is creating problems just to drag me into posting again !

Here goes.

Staghorn.
Firstly , Tom Barr would never ever put any algae issue down to the excess of any nutrient. Ever. In fact I know he's run tanks with very high levels of FE without issues. Same with phosphate.
Never had Staghorn myself. But I've seen it in a lot of other tanks. Almost all those tanks had the same issue.Dosing of micro nutrients ("the bottle of plant food I bought at the LFS"but no dosing of macros. What happens is cases like this is that people then blame the micros for the algae rather then the lack of macros. Of such things are "Iron/micros cause algae" myths born. In almost all cases getting the macros up to good levels solved the problem - "What you add Nitrates AND Phosphates, are you nuts ?????"
Now looking at your own tank. I see the latest pics and I see intense pearling. Tells me 2 things. Your Co2 levels should be good and your plants are munching through nutrients like a starving man at a smorgasbord. Then you say things like "I add a bit of Phosphate now and then". I smell a shortage of Macro Nutrients !!!!
You know what my prescribtion would be right?!

The new plants. The Helferi should replace the Corkscrew. Period. Not too sure what I'd do with the Gayi in your case, if it was me it's the kind of plant I'd use at the back behind a pick piece of driftwood. It's a thin plant, not going to hold it's own, best as a highlight to show off a piece of hardscape or accent another plant. It's very pretty and I love the shape but it's needs something around it to shine.

Sorry about the Gourami. See my post in the other thread, might be of some help.

Now can I crawl back under my rock ?


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“Convinced LF is creating problems just to drag me into posting again !”


Darn, you got me

About the excess of nutrients causing algae – I will try to hunt down where the heck I was reading that just the other day. Problem is that I read too much and can’t allocate locations in my memory (old people like me run on only 64 Megabytes of memory ). Also, I will test Nitrates tonight. I seriously doubt that they would be low and if they aren’t my Potassium isn’t low either as I dose it in concentrations at least as high as the Nitrates. And Phosphates, I bet you that I have a value of at least 3ppm, if not more (haven’t measured).

Yup, I am with you on replacing the Vals with the Helferis, I just hope they are not too small to be seen. Some of my “misalignments” in my current layout come from plants that eventually will be tall but are very small now, for example the entire left back corner.

The Gayii? Well, I don’t know where to put it either . Just thought it looks nice in the pictures and thought it can’t harm to order a few bunches . I guess I am just a little nuts.

Ingo


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old people like me run on only 64 Megabytes of memory
Now I know where you get the money for your tank.

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:%):%):%)

"64 Megabytes of memory"

That's my brain's capacity, not my laptop .

What does that have to do with money ?

Still haven't found out where I read the Staghorn - Iron relationship.

Ingo


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I might have missed this, how much Fe are you dosing?


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Gee, if I would remember,

I used the Fertilator to calculate how much Plantex I would have to add to get 0.1ppm Iron. I Just used the same value for the Plantex Plus Iron that I am using, 0.5tsp every other day / 3 x a week.

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I didn't see the plantex in the fertilator. I've been dosing 5ml of flourish 3/week which gives me .06 ppm per dose.

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tetratech - I think they removed it.

Ok Gang,

The plants came. The Cyperus helferi are 5 plants (one of which has 2 leaves) that are rather small. While at the LFS (please read my Hospital Log for updates on the Pearls), I bought another 5 (a rare appearance at my LFS, but not in the best good shape) to have at least 10 plants to put behind rock valley. We might not see them for a while as they are probably too short to peak out above the rocks.

The Potamogeton gayii are a nice group of 5 bunches, but I have no idea if they are in a good condition or about to die. I added 2 pictures, maybe you can help me out if this is how they look. All plants are currently floating (the gayii with weights) in the tank, planting will be tomorrow.

Thanks,

Ingo

Here are the Gayii as a group

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And here is a close-up

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And for good measure , a shot of 2 Espei in front of the Rotala Macandra. Can you tell which is the female?

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Nice pearling on the ?macrandra?. I hope your other two pearls get better.



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Thanks Matty, I appreciate your thoughts being with my Pearls .

Gang,

Well, another 6 hours spent on planting and water changes. Somehow I have not been too happy with the results; various plants had been repositioned quite a few times during this morning.

I planted the Gayii all the way on the left, but didn’t like it there, or for that matter – ANYWHERE. I threw it way, it was ugly .

Well, I will add 3 shots today and get into more details during tomorrows weekly update.

Thanks,

Ingo

Fist, Rock Valley as it never will be again

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Here the whole tank before I started (note the Gayii in the front right and the Helferi floating)

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The tank after, what do you think?

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Rock Valley as it never will be again
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Say it aint so.
Well I guess you have something in mind!

I think the tank definitely looks better with the add'l grasslike plants.

My Scapes
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I finally figured out what's been on my mind every time I look at your tank. I knew it had something to do with rock valley, but it just clicked. You got it backwards. Instead of the glosso crawling up through the valley, it should just be gravel, like a little road. Here's my bad illustration, because I know how you like them .


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Tainted Glory
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Ingo, it's Mike from Absolutely Fish. Just stopping in to say what's up! Tank looks amazing, I've got to say.
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Hi Mike,

Welcome to FP

Glad you remembered the site name I gave you

And thanks a lot for the compliment on the tank. I hope we will see you here more than only once

Tetratech - Rock Valley will never be the same because the Corkscrew Vals are gone, that's it - the valley itself will stay (for now ).

Matty - I don't know, I thought I will actually have Glosso all the way to the back. Then it could be a river of Glosso flowing to the front and spreading out in a delta before it flows in the ocean (no, I am not on drugs )

Ingo


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Rock Valley will never be the same because the Corkscrew Vals are gone, that's it - the valley itself will stay
Whew!

I thought I will actually have Glosso all the way to the back. Then it could be a river of Glosso flowing to the front and spreading out in a delta before it flows in the ocean (no, I am not on drugs


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Tainted Glory
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Plants aren't really my thing, but I'll poke in every once in a while. I really do like this site though.
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tetratech - That was a good one, wasn't it

Mike, glad you like the site, too bad stingrays don't have fun in a planted tank . Enjoy the rest of the site, we'll stay in touch.

Ingo


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Tainted Glory
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I'll get some pics of my tank on here in a few days. I'm doing a 120g as an xmas treat to myself. It's going to be nuts...120g main tank, 30g sump, 3 Leopoldi Rays, Korean Perch, Asian Arowana (very slim MAYBE!!!), M.Tigrinus, and some ST's.

Sorry for cluttering up your thread, but figure there's not much sense in starting my own. Just out of curiousity, did you do anything in particular to breed those Espei's? I'm going to sell my show guppys and start another breeding project soon.
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Tainted Glory (Mike)

You have to shoot me the link to the thread where you will show your setup. I am looking forward to the pictures .

Ingo

EDIT: The Espei - yeah, that is an interesting thing - supposedly they are hard to breed (based on various profiles all over the web and books) but all I did was to add water, hardscape, and plants and they turned into rabbits . I have fry of all ages, from a few days after they were introduced to basically yesterday (or maybe today, yet again ).

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 04-Dec-2005 04:27


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Weekly Update – Week 10

Yet again another major replant happened this weekend, new Cyperus Helferi have replaced the Corkscrew Vals and a few plants found new homes in different locations. The Dwarf Sags / Pygmy Chain Sword section in the front has been thinned to give the Glosso room to grow to the left and right of Rock Valley.

The downer of this week was the death of a Pearl Gourami that I added to the QT a day earlier. I still have 1 male and 1 female left, hopefully they will pull though and then I will add them to this tank in about 3 to 4 weeks.

The pictures for this weekly update will only reflect the last 4 weeks as each one contains a major change to the scape. I will then add another series of close-ups and details of the tank, some of them came out pretty well – thanks for the tips NowherMan6, the Tamron has arrived .

Ingo

Week 7, The base week to identify all following changes

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Week 8, 2 rocks added to the left, plants trimmed and moved

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Week 9, new plants added to tank, loads of plants moved / removed on left tank side

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Week 10, rock added to the right, plants moved / removed all over the tank. When you compare week 9 and this one you will see how the Apon on the left back (just to the right of the filter intake) has grown. I bet you that it will reach the surface in 2 to 3 weeks .

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Now on to some tank details, I am sure I will try to capture more in the near future .

Here is the Rotala Macandra pearling after the water change

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And here is the Xmas Moss doing the same

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How about another Oto shot? This one is holding on to the thinnest twig in the tank

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My remaining female Pearl (hoping that this picture will not be “in memory of” very soon)

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My male Pearl (same hopes as with last picture)

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Here a shot of the new right side. Some of you might not even know that I always had the Red Rubin Sword in the tank, it was mostly hidden in the right hand jungle. I moved it forward and more centered.

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This picture is called “Retro-Espei” (I guess I am losing it )

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For all the school fans, me included, may I introduce: THE SCHOOL

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And because it was so nice, here is another one

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Wingsdlc
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LF,

All I have to say is holy Espei batman!! How many do you have now?? They look really good!

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Thanks Wingsdlc,

How many do I have? No idea

I counted the ones in the last picture, there are around 50 (including 10 adults). Overall I would guess there are around 80 to 100. The smaller ones tend to stay close to the bottom plants to dart away when adults and old fry come too close.

Ingo


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LF,

Great pics and great school. Looks like about 35 espei in the pic, so you must have between 50 and 500

What kind of parameters are you using for your pics?



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tetratech,

Well, I don't really know yet what I am doing with the camera, I promise I will research and let you know.

The reason the pics are better than "usual" is because today is my BIRTHDAY and I got a Macro Lens 90mm F/2.8 .

Have to go and shovel snow now ]:|.

Ingo


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Well HAPPY BIRTHDAY little_fish!

Looks like the Espei are doing a parade in your honor.
Hope you have a good one!







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Wingsdlc
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LF,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!

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Happy Birthday LF!

hope you enjoyed your day and your tanks!

GFG

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Happy Birthday Ingo!

Nice pics of the rush hour traffic at the LF house.

-P
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Happy Birthday

'Tis a grand age.Too old to die young and too young to die now.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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LITTLE_FISH
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Well thank you everyone for the birthday wishes

It was a nice day, there is nothing better than getting a stiff back from shoveling wet snow (old age, I know).

There is nothing new to report on the tank. Currently the plants are growing nicely and any existing algae are not multiplying like mad (I think). The Pearls in the QT don’t show any signs of illness, nevertheless I ordered the medication from Seachem and it should arrive in 2 days.

Speaking about the Pearls – no signs of romance anymore, the male is actually becoming very territorial. He confined the female to one corner of the tank and rarely allows her to venture into other sections. He is not immediately aggressive when she approaches him, but at her first sign of being scared of him he chases her away. Hope that will change when his hormones kick in. Any idea if this is normal?

Ingo


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Happy birthday LF, and congrats on the new lens .



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NowherMan6
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The reason the pics are better than "usual" is because today is my BIRTHDAY and I got a Macro Lens 90mm F/2.8 .


Holy moly, just read this. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

...late ...

A fine choice of lens, by the way. ::ahem:: How's she been treating you? Looks like you've been shooting pretty wide open. Stop down to 4 or 5.6 and bump up your ISO to 800 or 1600 and watch what she can do

And nice school by the way. I'm sure the hugeness of the school has taken away some stocking options for you, but look at that, it's gotta be worth it, right?


Back in the saddle!
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bananacoladafuze
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Hey Little Fish. *wave*
Happy (belated) birthday.
I've been reading your thread since you started it, and it's very funny and informative. I know you probably told us what other fish you wanted in the tank somwhere along the way, but I'm really too lazy to go reread twenty-something pages to find it. So, what else is going in?
How much longer before the pearls go into the tank? After you're sure they're healthy and safe to add, are you going to wait until most of the fry are schooling, or are you going to let them fend for themselves? (Can't be too hard to hide in a tank with that many plants and hiding spots.)
The tank looks amazing. Keep posting pictures.

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Well thanks again for the birthday wishes

NowherMan6 – on page 26 I even mention that you advised me on the lens . And a large school is way cool. Too bad they don’t behave like this yet all the time, but I am sure once the fry gets older it will happen.

bananacoladafuze – Thanks for your entry in my thread, I am always happy when someone new comes in and has something to say . Yeah, the Pearls will go in the big tank in about 3 to 4 weeks. If the fry can’t hide, tough luck . I cannot protect them forever as they would overpopulate the tank one time after another (if they haven’t done that already).

You know, I don’t even remember if I mentioned what other fish are supposed to go in the tank, I know I did a long time ago in another thread when I was in the decision phase. If I remember it right, then there were nice sized schools of Rummies (canceled) and Glow Lights (cancelled), Cories (cancelled), a school of Black Neon Tetras (cancelled), a smaller school of Rainbows (might still happen), Gouramies (are here ), and Rams (will hopefully come one day, I am scared as I killed 2).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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NowherMan6
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on page 26 I even mention that you advised me on the lens


Sorry i missed that. I haven't been following everyones' logs too well for the past week - or my own for that matter. Last week i worked bewteen 16 and 20 hours per day for 5 days, then i was away this weekend. All I had time to do was throw a few towels over my own tank (GW black out) on thursday night - or friday morning, i cant remember, it all blends together - and write the occasional post here and there.

sorry to ramble... and congrats on the lens


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LF,

What do you have in mind for Rainbows? I am becoming a super big fan of these guys. My 40 gallon is probably going to have some in there sooner or later. Probably later.....poor!

Edit: did you ever get your Proper Water Circulation thing figured out??

Last edited by Wingsdlc at 05-Dec-2005 20:23

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NowherMan6 – I know how you feel. I am about to get seriously busy at work. I am having a project due by the end of January and “under normal conditions” it would take me until March to do it.

Wingsdlc – The rainbow I have in mind is the Dwarf Neon Rainbow (Melanotaenia praecox). They don’t get too big and I don’t have a silvery/blue fish yet. A school (shoal) of 6 would be nice.

The water circulation, no – haven’t figured that one out yet . Currently I am going again with my spraybar horizontally on the left side top. I am considering making my own along the whole length of the tank, but that will take some time .

Ingo


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LF,

The Dwarf Neon Rainbows are what I have had in mind for my tank too. I really like them. I also have two male Boesemani Rainbows in another tank that I have been thinking about adding in there too. If I do that any time soon I will have to do something with my 20 gallon. (So many gupppies!)

About the spray bar. I think you would probably like it to have one the length of your tank. When or if you do this. I don't know that amount of pressure that your filter is going to be making but if you can make your bar into separet chucks so you can twist them for different angles would be cool. Much like keithgh's tank.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wingsdlc,

Yeah, these livebearers I have platies and they are a similar "pest" (I love them).

I have the same spraybar as Keith does. The problem there is that you can only angle up and down, but not left and right. And it is way too short for the length of my tank, it fits easily on one side (less than 18 inches).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 06-Dec-2005 08:16


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LF,

Ok I see what you mean. You want something that can cover the length of your tank and you can move left to right/up and down? If that is what you want then you have a project on hand.

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
bananacoladafuze
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Dun dun duuun.
*cough* Uh, sorry 'bout that...
Why do you want to be able to move the spraybar around?

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bananacoladafuze,

Good question. Let me try to explain:

I have one large Eheim Pro II canister filter to clean my water. Its output is a spraybar that is currently located on the left tank side, horizontally, just about an inch below the surface (to avoid any excessive surface agitation which is bad for CO2 injected tanks – gas exchange). The flow of water that I get from this barely reaches the right side of the tank and as such the water over there could, at least theoretically, become stale and/or insufficiently mixed with CO2 and/or plant fertilizer.

I previously had the spraybar vertically to blow along the back of the tank’s length, I also had a powerhead located in various spots within the tank, all to assure proper water distribution. The problem then was that it created too much flow and plants were blown all over the place. I just don’t like it when thin leaved plants bend to one side too much.

So, I figure that when having a spraybar along the entire back I would not get an enormous output through each of its holes, meaning the generated current per hole is low. Then I could go and make sure that each area of the tank gets proper filtered water.

I guess that is what I want .

Ingo


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bananacoladafuze
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Oooh, okay. I figured it was something like that. Are you actually gonna have to make the spraybar yourself? Doesn't seem like it would be too hard if you do.

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Chances are I am making it way harder than it has to be. My brain does that sometimes!

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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks you 2,

I am not sure when - and if - I will do something. But I am also looking into [link=This System]http://www.modularhose.com/" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]. We will see...

Ingo


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LF,

Now you are talking!! You could do some sweet work with a hand full of thoughs! I have played with them before but I don't remember what it was on now........Wait! I worked at Napa for about 3 years and they had thoughs conecting thinkies on the fly wheel grinder. Thats what it was!! So yeah anyways keep us posted! (I really didn't have to say that....)

55G Planted tank thread
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bananacoladafuze
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Hahaha. I'd be tempted to play with 'em. They're so colorful!
Edit: Of course, my boss would probably have a problem with me bringing them to work and poking customers with 'em.
The web site says that the 3/4 size can be used to support cameras. Does this mean I can make a really funky camera stand out of the Loc-line stuff? I'm trying to figure out how that would work....

Last edited by bananacoladafuze at 06-Dec-2005 13:53

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Gang,

There has been quite a series of “talk-only” posts, so I figured it is time to add some pictures again.

Ingo

The first one shows a Sag Subulata “Narrow Leaf” plant with 2 leaves that must be at least 20 inches long as they almost reach the surface of my 24 inch high tank. I didn’t know that this plant can reach such a height.

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This one shows an Anubias Nana that is surrounded and covered up by the Xmas Moss on top, Dwarf Sag Subulata on the right and left, and Glosso on the bottom

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This one is for tetratech and NowHerMan6, you guys are not alone in the Algae War – “Long live the Staghorn”

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Here is a shot of the dense Glosso carpet in front of and in-between Rock Valley

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Last but not least, yet another Glosso close-up

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tetratech
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LF,
That glosso really looks great. I find the hairgrass to be a major pain, someone on another thread actually suggested I "comb" it.

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goldfishgeek
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Hey LF can I see algae on your Annubus nana? cos thats what mine looks like.................

I still want your tank. although that thing you are going to buy - the Loo Line system that really made me laugh!

any how must get back to staring at my tanks, did all the WC changes tonight and they look beautiful accept for the aglae which I have decided to live with!

is it time for a big picture yet?

GFG

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Ingo,

The algae in the moss. I don't think it's staghorn. Looks like green thread algae. Can be a problem in mosses, bet it's not growing anywhere else ? . Easy to remove - get a toothbrush (not one you use, an old one, or mabe the wife's ) stick it in there and twirl it around, like wrapping spaghetti around a fork. You find the threads of algae come out very easily.The kids can help you with this , they may enjoy it and may even stop thinking Daady's gone a little cuckoo


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Don't forget to chant and dance around the tank while you're at it. Oops was that in print?
Is it really that easy to get it out of a tank? Why oh why didn't I have the internet when I still had the 2g, that thing was full of thread algae!
I fixed it by breaking down the tank and giving it away! That'll teach that nasty stuff to grow in my tank!
Love the pics, that glosso tempts me so! The sags look really good too!
But I must remain strong and stave off temptation.[img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]
Easy enough as I have'nt seen it available here at all!

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Thanks all for the input,

Bensaf – The algae is mostly in the moss. It forms some very long strands, reaching up to 6 inches (then I usually “clean” them out with the next water change). These strands are also forming on other plants though. Nevertheless, certain parts of the moss have a dense population of much shorter bright green algae and an attempt to pull on it would remove the moss from the rocks. I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply.

luvmykrib and tetratech – yeah, the Glosso is very nice. Somewhere much earlier in this thread are some pictures that show how few of it I had in there initially. Now I am actually faced with the question if the Glosso needs pruning. At some points it grows 4 rows on top of each other and I get worried that it shades itself too much. My experiment in the 20G with 2wpg and Glosso is still ongoing. I checked last night and new growth is still developing but older existing leaves are becoming yellowish. I am almost certain that it is fertilizer related as I keep them in short supply in this tanks (it is a QT after all, at least at the moment). Or maybe it is insufficient light.

Ingo


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tetratech
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I guess I still have to work on adjusting my nutrient supply

Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?

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NowherMan6
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Did you think you bottomed out, or do you still think excess n,k,p causes algae?


it's funny you brought this up, because I just got a newsletter in my email today from the fishkeeping section of about.com (long story) and the headline was "Fast and easy cure for green hair algae!" Naturally I clicked on the link to the article with much gusto and fervor, only to find that their cure was.... you probably guessed it, get rid of N and P! ::roll eyes::

I feel like there's always the temptation to say, well i need to lower N, P or what have you, but when you think about it it doesn't make sense. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't algae of various types "better" at using those macros than higher level plants? So if that's the case, how is it even possible to have a level of say N that would benefit plants and not algae? The plants need it no matter what, you have to give it to them. Algae is going to be able to use it no matter what. To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.

And please correct me if I'm missing something here. Maybe not enough CO2?


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Yeah,

I hear you guys. Whenever one reads a particular interpretation of the algae issue then it sounds rather reasonable. I guess I will try to do some testing tonight to see what my current N, P, CO2 is. I somehow don’t think that I bottomed out on any of these and I suspect that the micros somehow mess with me. But if it is too much or too little, hell – I don’t know .

Ingo


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bensaf
 
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To my mind, anyway, that sounds like it can't be excess N or whatever that causes algae to grow.




He gets it !!!!!

If algae is a single cell protestant buddist or whatever the hell it is, it only needs minuscule amounts of nutrients. Much much less then plants. So why oh why would it need excessive amounts to flourish ????? It really only holds true when there are nutrients available that plants don't need, like silica causing brown algae.

That's not to say we just dump huge amounts of nutrients in and all problems are solved. High amounts will cause problems for livestock, flora and fauna. Really high nitrates or co2 will hurt fish. Excessive amounts or imbalances of certain nutrients can cause toxic reactions in plants. But, luckily the levels needed are really high. A few plants are more sensitive to some nutrients then other. But it's quite a few species.So the range is quite wide, which is where EI comes in, dose to excess but a tolerable excess.

It's the imbalances of nutrients that give the illusion that excess cause algae. For a long time people thought 10-15ppm of Co2 was good enough. It wasn't , and that imbalance caused a lot of issues, issues people attributed to other nutrients. Raising Co2 levels solved a lot of that.

For reasons we really don't understand, it seems when the plants are growing at their optimum level algae doesn't appear. That's were the focus needs to be.

Everytime you folks have an algae issue you go straight to the nutrients. Is this or that in my tap, am I dosing too much of this or that? Never really hear anybody mention the plants. Eyeball them, any plants not growing the way they should, slower, smaller, leggier, paler ? That's where you'll find the answers. Chances are things aren't growing the way they should be and algae pops up. Correct the plant issue and you'll correct the algae problem.

Look at tetras cuurent issue, GW, pops up at the same he had problems with plant growth. Co-incidence ? LF has been moving a lot of things and put in a lot of new plants, most of which will take time to acclimatise and really get growing (for some plants this can be as long as a month), so not all plants are growing to their full potential at the moment. Algae pops up. Co-incidence?

You all have a bit of experience under your belt now, you've seen algae, you've beaten algae, you've seen it come back to some extent.Ask yourself these questions:

Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?

Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?

As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?

Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?

I think I might need another long break

BTW, the whole "Star Wars" thing that went on. I've got an announcement to make:

Tetratech, I am your father


Last edited by bensaf at 07-Dec-2005 21:43


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Wingsdlc
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bensaf,

You are too much! Sometime if you get a chance take a look at my thread . I would like to hear what you have to say. New pictures will be coming up sometime tomorrow!!

55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Anyway pretty sure it's from all the reduced plant mass since 2 of my 3 main stem groups are not functioning.
I said the above in my thread back on Dec 2nd referring to my latest GW.

I agree, but the one thing that I have not seen is how plant mass plays a role in dosing. I mean if you hve one stem of a very needy plant that must have co2, high light, etc to survive and there is nothing else in the tank just hardscape are you going to dose that tank the same way that you would a tank that has shoulder to shoulder plants. I think you walk a fine line with algae and GW if you don't have that really good mass. If you remember I got GW early on and beat it when my plant mass was huge and then when my main groupings stopped growing as you mentioned the GW came back. So what caused the GW. I was testing nh3, "Zero", no2 "zero". Is the nh3 in the substrate and then when you scape and move things around you realize enough nh3 to get the algae or GW going again. The odds or how bad it get's is probably based on a combination of plant mass and light.

Actually here's Amanos take on "Creating a Balance"
"The amount of a liquid fert needs to be altered depending on the volume of aquatic plants in an aquarium" In the case of stems plants that grow well with an addition of a liquid fert the amount of the fertilizer given right after planting may be small. However since they grow fast, they become dense in a short period of time. Therefore the amount of liquid fert may have to be doubled and tripled depending on their growth. However, in order to maintain stem plants they need to be trimmed periodically. When plants are trimmed back the overall plant volume is decreased and the amount of fertilizer needs to be reduced accordingly. Such adjustments of the amount of supplementation, both up and down must be made by observing the volume and condition of aquatic plants"

This is pretty much what I have said over and over and is my problem with EI. Bensaf if I'm interpreting your comments correctly your saying the same thing, so why when plant mass decreases do you get algae when nh3 is zero.
Dad please be gentle in your response.

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bensaf
 
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Well son,

Actually now that I think of it I'm too young to be your father. More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass , I'm talking about plant growth.

Firstly EI is about dosing to a slight excess. In a lower plant mass situation the excess is a bit more but should not cause any additional problems. We've all seen tanks that are working well and not totally covered in plants.

Yeah, packing them out at the start is a good idea to get things established. But they can be thinned out and removed later.

When I mention your tank problems I'm not saying it's a result of lower plant mass rather one of stalled/reduced growth. There's a subtle difference. The reduced mass is a byproduct of the stalled growth. There's usually other byproducts - algae.

You saw your tank run well when growth was good, even though it wasn't "packed" with plants. The current problem starting when growth slowed not when the mass was reduced.
In other word the reduced mass was a result not a cause.

As to what's causing your GW. I don't know, I'm at a loss. I've no problem admitting that. How much NH3 is needed for GW to start ? I don't know. Is it a amount that is measurable by a test kit or lower ? Don't know. Is it possible for some reason you've always had some NH3, too little for the test kit to pick up, or indeed how accurate are these kits, but the plants could take it up and when growth slowed the NH3 got used elsewhere ? Maybe.

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.

I don't think it is that, but hell, nothing would surprise me anymore.

But I'm sure by this stage we are in agreement in one thing. The nutirents we dose don't have a role is this and that reduced growth does have a role ?




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More of a slightly older brother, you know the one you were jealous of because he got the good looks, charm and girlfriends




I am more jealous of your tanks than anything else you mentioned, slightly older brother .

I hear your statement though, and it all makes sense. But as I said earlier, each theory – when looked at individually – makes some sense. Maybe I (and others) suffer from one common issue, which is that I tend to blame others when something doesn’t go right. Let me explain before you jump on my throat. I recently could not find my favorite planting tweezers (yes, I have 6 pairs and I am a nerd) and naturally started to interrogate the entire family of who might have taken them away. Well, 20min later I found them in a place where I put them and I had to say “I am sorry” to everybody. I currently focus my reasoning for algae on Iron, which I cannot see (measure), the same way NH3 has been mentioned (immeasurable amounts).

But I don’t know what else to focus on when I try to identify where any algae might come from. I have Nitrates, Potassium, and Phosphate, I feed Micros frequently, I have CO2 – although I have to confess that I haven’t measured any of these in ages. I have good plant growth, so – what else is out there?

Maybe it really is the constant replanting. BTW, a rather half-hearted attempt to reduce the current algae about 2 to 1 week ago showed no effect. I dosed within one week 50ml and twice 20ml of Flourish Excel, nothing happened. Maybe the Excel wonder from a few weeks ago works only once or not on this particular type of algae.

Ok, I got to get ready for work now.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Boy this feels like the good old days

We're talking about 2 different things. You talk about plant mass, I'm talking about plant growth. Yes and no, but remember I got GW about 2 weeks in, remember the willow branches, tetra dancing around the tank. I know you've been away a while doing God knows what, but you do remember that brother. At that time the plant growth was really good. So was it "mass" or "growth"

Here's a wild one I'll throw out. Maybe your injecting Co2 into your canister has had an effect on the bio colony as some have suggested thereby reducing the efficiency of ammonia conversion ? Maybe it's a combination of both.
I would have no problem admitting this, because as LF knows this was alittle bit of experimentation on my part, but of course I did have the GW with my hagen ladder and my tank did show some cloudiness before I started that. I've also been on APC alot trying to get more feedback and no one else has made that jump. On thing I'm not sure about, once the tank matures what % of the biofilter is actually in the filter (varies of course) but isn't there so much biofilter at this point in the substrate, plants, etc especially in a big tank that would make this point kinda mute.

It could very well be that when LF plays with this tank and I have reduced growth, mass the nh3 that is in the substrate and not necesarily moving around the water column plays a role in the algae.

BTW - Your right about Amano, he doesn't include many details, etc., but a few things he states out right is:
-He doesn't dose the water column initially
_He varies his doses by mass,growth
_He believes ferts will cause/feed algae growth

But with him it's always an easy fix, "Just throw 50 Yamato Shrimp in"



B

Last edited by tetratech at 08-Dec-2005 06:36

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NowherMan6
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Err, I know I'm kinda the outsider looking in on all this "knowledge" and "success with planted tanks" business, but just to add:

Has algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?


Actually, i've experienced the opposite of this. My plants started to really take off when my GW problems started. I don't know what to attribute that to, but it seems like the exception to the rule... in any case it holds true for BGA and staghorn IME


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Besides all the confusing things about algae growth…

Tetratech just added another one …

Who is B?

Bob, Bill, Ben, or who?

Ingo




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Gang,

Haven’t made an entry in almost 2 days, basically because there is nothing new to report. It’s all the same old stuff, plants and thread algae growing just nicely, fish are reproducing .

I will do my weekly water change today and I am sure the wife will be pleased that I will not spend another 6 hours on replanting stuff. A series of photos will follow the water change.

Ingo


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Do you really believe, from your experience, that excess macros or micros caused your problems?


Imbalance, or an excess(or lack) in ONE nutrient, Macro or Micro, can cause algae. My problem is that nobody wants to listen to the "I have a lot of PO4 in my tap." In response I get "The plants won't care." So I go and dose the suggested KH2PO4 and wind up with 5ppm of PO4 and some algae. After doing an emergency water change and not dosing the PO4, there has been no new algae growth. Also, I have not replanted anything for weeks, and plant growth had always been good.


Have you seen more problems when your nutrients were lower or higher?


I see problems at both ends of the spectrum.


As algae appearance ever coincided with reduced plant growth?


A simple yes would work here, but I've also seen algae with good plant growth.


Is what you are dosing sufficient to sustain or improve the growth you are seeing?


Yep, definitely sustain, not much to improve on.



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Matty,

Nobody listens to me either when I talk about my tab Phosphates. I, at an early stage of this tank, had values of 10ppm ]:|.

Besides the algae issues, I did my weekly water change, but as usual I will recap the events of this week on Sunday. Upfront I would like to show you some pictures of the Espei huddling together during the water change. The lower the water level the close the young ones stay with the adults.

Ingo

First shot, group in left tank corner. As an additional treat, find the Oto

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Next – group moving one way

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Last – group moving the other way

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try again...

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LITTLE_FISH
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Yup NowherMan6,

You found the Oto.

And the prize is: you can look at my pictures as often as you like to .

Images shot with the Tamron

Ingo


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Weekly updates for week 11,

Not much has happened during the last week. I experimented with the micro fertilizer Plantex Plus Iron and added only 2 doses during the week (normally 3). The reason behind this is that I somehow believe I am getting too much Iron in the water and that would be why I have thread algae. I know that some of the information available by the “old school” hobbyists is outdated, but Chuck Gadd mentions excess Iron as the reason for thread algae. Anyways – I haven’t seen a change, the algae grew as usual. I should actually not try to dose less often but rather less quantities 3 times a week (or half these and 6 times a week). By the way, plant growth is just lovely.

The only trimming that had to be performed this weekend was the removal of some Pygmy Chain Sword runners that were growing into the Glosso lawn.

Ingo

Here are some weekly pictures, first the tank over the weeks and then some details, some of which have questions.

The tank at setup – I cannot believe that I actually thought I had a large plant mass.

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Week 3 – The tank with lots of Nitrate sucking plants

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Week 7 – First attempts to scape the somewhat settled tank

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Week 10 – Last weekend, just as a comparison to this week to show the plant growth in 7 days

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Week 11 – Today

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The first detail picture is a collage of the Apon’s growth during the last 2 weeks. On the left you can barely (if at all) see them as they just have been planted. Sorry about the bad picture quality, but these are magnifications from full tank shots.

By the way, the Ech. Uruguayensis, which sits in front of the Reactor, is still not visible. It has developed a quite a few additional leaves but barely gained any height.
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A close-up of Rock Valley, maybe soon I have to rename it to Moss Valley ( time for a trim? )

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An even closer look at the Xmas Moss with the nice thread algae mixed in. Attempts to pull it out with a toothbrush failed as the moss came out with it as well. I will have to correct any nutrient imbalance to get rid of this stuff.

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Weekly summary pictures are on previous page, please view first.

The Amano Pearl Grass, which I think is an excellent and forgiving plant.

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My remaining bunch of Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, I am torn between really liking it and throwing it out. Time will tell.

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Last but not least, and as boring as it may seem, another Glosso close-up.

The question here is: Do I have to trim it at some point? I somehow never thought of that but it is now 4 layers deep in some areas.

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LF,
Very nice. Everything looks very healthy. Is the algae definitely "thread"? Many aquarists as you said do believe too much FE is the reason behind the thread algae, but it's probably not that simple, there are probably other factors as well.

Is the rotala m. on the left a cutting from the bigger group on the right? I don't remember, but how come you removed the rotala r.

The first observation I made about your tank is that their is very little hardscape showing, the plants have pretty much consumed it.



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tetratech,

Thanks for the comments .

Bensaf identified this algae a few days back as thread, I initially labeled it Staghorn, but I think he is right as it doesn’t branch within the strings themselves.

Yes, the Rotala Macandra on the left is cuttings from the group on the right. I replanted then before last weeks update. The Macandra grew very nicely during this week, although it had been uprooted during last weeks “messing” with the tank.

The first attempt of adding Rotala Rotundifolia ended up with introducing BGA to the tank that was attached to the plants . So I removed them. The next attempt was better, but the plant didn’t fit into the overall picture. It also grew tall fast and would have required too much trimming. Having had the plant in my 29G and seeing your 72G log I decided that I have no interest in constantly uprooting a plant and replanting the tops just to avoid the ragged legs.

Yeah, the hardscape is gone . The only pieces that are still visible is the tip of rock and the newly “planted” rock on the right side (last weeks addition). I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?

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I assume the next thing you gonna tell me is that I need more hardscape, right ?
Well, that thought did cross my mind, but I think I had said from the beginning of our logs, we really were taking two completely different approaches. My tank still has the wisteria that I kept from my old 46 and the only original plants I ordered from aquariumplants.com when I setup the tank what about 3 months ago, although I am looking into purchasing something alittle different.



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Well, if you look through my log you will find out about how I always thin out my foreground every couple months. I take out the biggest chain swords, replant the small ones, then take the large ones to the lfs for $$. You could probably thin out the glosso, and take quite a bit back for 20 bucks, maybe more(well at my store you would end up getting about that much). You will probably see better, faster growth after you thin out the group. I noticed some of the leaves on the bottom had maybe a little algae on them? That's what tends to happen to my chain swords if I let them bunch up too much.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and keep the ludwiggia, it's a nice plant with a bit of different color you don't always see. And if you take out all your fast growing plants you might get some trouble.

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Matty – Thanks for the advice on the Glosso and Ludwigia. I will contact my LFS to see if they have an interest in purchasing some of my Glosso. Yeah, I like the Ludwigia because of the different color and leaf shape. But at the same time it means that the bottom parts might look “rooty” for all the water roots this plant develops over time. Fortunately most of these parts are hidden behind rocks.

tetratech – What other plants do you have in mind?

I hear you on the missing hardscape . Finding tall (18+ inches) rocks that don’t have a broad base that would take up too much space is not an easy task. And switching to driftwood would mean that I have to go on the hunt for good wood again (not at the moment).

The hardscape also seems consumed because the rock coloration has changes. The longer they are in the tank the darker they get. Here are some pictures of rocks in my tank .

The first one displays what I mean with “changing coloration”. The rock in front is in the tank since the beginning, the one in the back since a week. It is the same rock type.

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Immediately to the left of Rock Valley sits this rock, between the Anubias and the Narrow Leaf Ludwigia.

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A smaller rock to the left of the Anubias from the last picture, almost in the foreground of the tank, with a taller one in the back. That one is still lighter as it has been in the tank since only 3 weeks.

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Last but not least, 2 rocks on the left of the tank. They are way hidden because of the Anubias and Sword plants. Note the Oto and yet again another blossom on the Anubias.

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How many otos do you have in that tank? So far we've only seen one, is it the same one? Every morning I play hunt the otos in the 25g, I have 4 in that tank and 2 in the 10g. They aren't really shy, just so busy eating they could care less about me. I just cleaned the gravel and had to move an ornamental castle they have been cleaning, all 4 of them were clinging to it as I moved it to and fro. Not one of them moved! The krib on the other hand was manuevering to get a piece of me! She seems to think I'm a snack.

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luvmykrib,

I don’t know it is always the same one .

Could be, maybe this one likes to be photographed. But I have 6. At some point I had 8 (I think), but 2 didn’t make it .

Yeah, I have to chase them away from the glass when I clean it. I think it is not so much a question of trust though. I believe it is the natural instinct of this fish on what to do when predators are around. They just don’t move and hope that their coloration will help them to blend into the environment. I usually don’t get to see all 6 of them and can only hope that they are still alive. The last time I saw them all was about 2 weeks ago.


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I have the same problem with my Otos. I should have 5 in my 40 but I haven't seen all 5 in about two weeks.

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Do you ever worry that controlling algae with excel will leave them with nothing to eat? Mine have nearly cleaned out the 10g, and the ones in the 25g have eaten so much algae that I am now worried it won't grow fast enough! Thus I am not dosing excel daily but every few days instead. They have not even looked at the algae flakes I give the krib. Would they eat wafers if they ran out of algae?

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luvmykrib,

I actually controlled algae with Excel only for one week until the rather dangerous black brush algae was defeated. A second, albeit half hearted, attempt about 2 weeks back to defeat thread algae failed. I either didn’t dose enough or this stuff simply doesn’t care about it.

In my tank Otos will always find something to eat. Loads of plants and glass surface assure that 6 Otos will never have an empty belly. I had some Otos in my smaller tanks and I was worried about their food source. I also did not have the impression that they were eating the algae wafers I provided. Generally, the tips I got were to a) feed the wafer after lights out and b) break up the wafer in smaller pieces and place them in a few spots within the tank. I did just that and in the morning they were mostly gone, but who knows who ate them (maybe the snails)?

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Hey LF,

sorry to change the topic, but I have another question about your amazing breeding espei.

I know you spend a lot of time plant watching, but do you ever notice any specific behavior in your espei before they breed? Chasing behavior, dances etc? I know how to recognize the territory dance the males do, but I've noticed somethign new yesterday after a water change and I wodnered if you've noticed anything they do before breeding.


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NowherMan6,

Hm, let’s see. Here is the dance my males make: The swim side by side, head to tail, stretch out all the fins, wiggle slightly, and show their best colors. The loser usually leaves the dance floor .

Before and during breeding: The male Espei colors brighten up quite a bit. They become bright orange to red, with a purple hue. Then the males chase the females, usually one to two males (sometimes more) chase one female. Then the males fight until the loser leaves (but sometimes comes back) and most of the time the winner joins the female to lay and fertilize the eggs on the underside of leaves.

And then all that have witnessed this process join the breeders in eating the eggs, if they remember where they put them .

And that’s it, nothing else. What did you see?

Ingo


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Wow, that's interesting. I noticed the male wiggle dance months ago, at first I thought that was breeding but I figured out quickly that was the territory dance.

But yesterday I noticed that about 4 males were chasing the big female around, chasing back and forth, and every now and then two of the males would stop to do the wiggle dance, then rejoin the chase. I didn't see any egg dropping, but that seems to be the same thing as happens with yours, so i assume it's breeding behavior... now if only I could get them over that hump...

thanks, that's kind of exciting to hear. At least my little fish are becoming adults.


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NowherMan6,

Just keep your eyes open for any movement close to the substrate in a quiet corner of the tank

At least Espei, and I assume "normal" Harlies as well, have their eggs hatch within one day and fry is free swimming within 5 days, but really small.

And I don't think the male dancing is territory related - I think it is the "boss" issue, in other words the identification of the alpha male.

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Thanks LF. I don't know if I'll ever see the result of any breeding, I'm afraid my yo-yos will take care of all that business.

Anyway, it's something to look out for. Cheers!


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Gang,

Sunday evening, over one day after my water change, I tested some parameters.

Following the water change I added:

1 tsp of KNO3
1/2 tsp of K2SO4
1/8 tsp of KH2PO4
2 tsp of baking soda
1/2 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium

Nothing else has been added, I neglected the Plantex Plus Iron micro fertilizer completely. Here are the measured values:

Ph of about 6.6
KH of about 4 DH
Concludes in a CO2 of about 30ppm – good
Nitrates of about 20ppm, way too much as it was just one day after water change
Phosphates of about 5ppm, way too much as well
Iron (with a power test kit that is dissolved in tank water on a test plate) initially showed 0.1ppm, which is good. But the test states that one has to wait 30 to 45 min to see the values for chelated iron, which turned out to be somewhere around 0.3ppm.

Why am I telling you all of this? Because I am still trying to find out where the thread algae is coming from. Chuck Gadd mentions high Iron levels as a reason, this would be in line with my readings if chelated iron counts. The phosphates seem to be a little high as well, maybe that is another reason. My high nitrates are most likely form the “slightly” increased number of fish.

Here is what I propose I will do:

- reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
- don’t add any KH2PO4 at all
- add a little more K2SO4 to keep the potassium up, maybe ¾ tsp
- reduce Plantex plus Iron (so far always ½ tsp) to ¼ tsp every other day. This might cause a low level of other micros, so I might switch to a different “provider”, maybe TMG, after all.

Any thoughts?

Ingo


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reduce KNO3 to ½ tsp every other day
don’t add any KH2PO4 at all

If Bensaf sees this you are toast ]:|

LF,
Have you tried the PPS system for your test kits. I would do that for the n03 and po4 before you reduce. Here's the thread that contains the link to setup the benchmarks. It was a big help to me understanding what the colors really meant in my kits.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=4241

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 08:44

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Thanks tetratech,

I printed out the whole document and will read it on my way home. BTW, I strongly believe that the fertilator once contained Plantex to measure Iron. I wonder why they took it off?

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I haven't read it all yet, but I did go through the articles titled "How to test for Nitrates and Phosphates" When I used that system to set color standards I realized my levels were lower than what I was interpreting them as from the color charts that come with the test.

BTW - Is the thread algae mostly on top of the javamoss covered rock or is it on the bottom as well and other low plants?

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The thread algae is very dense within the upper parts of the Xmas moss, almost forming a green cushion entangled so tightly that I cannot remove it.

Other parts of the moss have it as well, but not as dense. Also, other plants show threads on the upper and lower portions of the tank.

Do you have a hypothesis?

Ingo


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Do you have a hypothesis

Yes, light.

The top of that moss is probably one of the closest unchanging points to those 386watts of light. As I said before your tank is the same depth as mine and I have half the wattage. We all know that detris get's caught in moss, so it's not surprising that all the light and waste is creating a hotbed for algae. If I had that light on my tank it would be over 5wpg, but we all know wpg is a general rule. Bottom line is you have intense light on that moss that's very close to the source. I notice on my tank there is miminal algae, but I notice on the DW higher up the algae is definitely more concentrated.

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 15:14

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I can see how that makes sense. IME hornwort floating on the surface, if not moved around by the current, will quickly develop into a mat of green algae. I've seen this happen when no other algae appeared in the tank. I figured it was happening to the hornwort because of its proximity to the intense light. Myabe the same is happening with your moss...


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My guess was light as well. You have lots of light!
I used to leave the light on longer as a way of compensating for there being less of it and algae grew profusely at the top portions of the plants. Since using the timers and adding the otos there has been less algal growth all over.
You may need to go with 8-10 hours rather than 10-12 hrs of light. I read that somewhere but can't recall where right now. Check aqua-botanic, could've been there.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/begin.htm

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Hm, Ladies and Gentlemen,

I wonder if you are on to something.

But, I have 1/2 the lights on for only 4 hours. The rest of the 11 hours lighting period is on 192 Watts only, means less than 2wpg.

Or maybe lights play an imprortant role in my algae growth, but high Phosphate and Iron levels do as well?

Gee, one more thing to think about, darn lights .

Ingo




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We all know (I think) that light is the biggest factor in algae growth. I know you only have the 3.1 wpg on for 4 hours, but that is really intense. Remember 3.1 wpg on a 125g is alot differnt than 3.1 on a 20g.

And besides your an EI diehard.


LF - Have you thought about adding a herd of sae. Don't they eat the stuff?

Last edited by tetratech at 13-Dec-2005 19:09

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bensaf
 
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Don't understand why you'd want to reduce NO3 and PO4.

The problem with reducing the Plantex +Iron is you are not just reducing Iron but all the other micros too.

Definately a good idea to swap to TMG or something like it. I always add FE as a seperate component, easier to control. I only add FE for extra color, never found it neccessary as such. TMG always seemed to have enough to keep plants happy.

Pull out as much of the thread as you can, doesn't matter if some moss comes loose it'll grow back. Keep harrassing it.You may be able to stop new growth but it won't kill what's already there.

Notsure light is a factor here. I've seen thread grow in moss in the deepest darkest most shaded part of a tank.

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Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:38

Last edited by bensaf at 13-Dec-2005 20:39


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LITTLE_FISH
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Yeah,

That was one of the reasons I mentioned that I might switch to another micro fertilizer, less dosing of plantex concludes in less other goodies.

BTW, the moss is not the closest to the top of the tank, Rotala Macandra, Narrow Leaf Ludwigia, Crypt Retrospiralis, and the spray bar are closer.

I will try to remove the stuff on the weekend; I probably will have to trim the moss in order to get it out.

Ingo

Here is another picture of it, on top of the rock area:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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On a different note, the two remaining Pearls are doing fine in the 20G, but the male worries me a bit. Very very territorial. He now also chases the Platies once in a while and rarely tolerates the female close to him. Here is a picture of both together:

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



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I thought Tom Barr said he dosed a ton of Fe and made no difference on algae. Am I wrong?

Isn't there just too many variables to really understand exactly what is causing your thread algae. Maybe all those espei are pooping in the moss and creating a nice nh3 soap heated by that light. Have you tested nh3 with all those babies in there. I don't know if you fish load is considered heavy, but it could be. I wonder if you could test the water right inside the top of that moss and then test again in the open area and see if there is any nh3 differences. I have to say I started dosing more no3, po4 and FE and I don't see any new or add'l algae growth.

Fish load, plant mass/growth, and all that light. 386 watts right on top of that moss.

BTW - That's a beautiful "graceful" picture







Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 05:49

Last edited by tetratech at 14-Dec-2005 06:21

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tetratech,

First of all thank you for the comment on the picture .

I guess I could try to get water from within the moss area. I just have to make sure that my fingers don’t touch the top of the test tube as this would create wrong readings for sure.

About the too much of something causing issues, well – I guess that is up for debate .

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LF, Do you have one of those little plastic tubes that suck the water in. It comes with some test kits. You squeeze it and the water gets sucked in.



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Yup,

I got that, I will have to use it twice as it has only a capacity of 3ml. Didn't come with my test tubes but had the feeling they would come handy one day so I ordered a bunch from Greg Watson while I bought my Ferts.

Thanks tetratech, I would have forgotten about them

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Worth a try, I don't even know if it's measurable, but you never know.

I think it's tough to tinker with this and tinker with that. There's always another reaction. The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.

If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now) then...

Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.

So bascially more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room. Then we start to change fert dosing, etc. The high light puts the algae production into hyperdrive and the rest is history. If someone wants to prove me in correct, so be it.

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tetratech,

I think we once established that NH3 is preferred by plants over NO3, right?

This would explain why I have rather high levels of NO3 albeit I reduced the amount added. The additional, hm, 100 fish produce a lot of NH3 and plants will use it first. That leaves the NO3 up for grabs in the tank. And this is why I intend to dose even less of it.

So, if the NH3 causes the algae then I should dose even less NO3, or none at all, right? I guess I should emasure Ammonia, although all fish are doing fine.

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I think the plants need both, the algae we know can do very well on just the nh3, but your plants should still be sucking up all the no3. I bet there is very little measurable nh3 in your water, but might be enough with all that light. I still think 386 watts on a 21" deep tank is alot regardless of how long it is.

I'm not suggesting your light isn't good, just that you probably need even more plant mass and I don't know if you could maintain that moss so high up in the water column where the light is so intense.






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Wouldn't trace amounts of ammonia be consumed by bacteria in the filter/ gravelbed before plants have a chance to use it?

I assume the same principle applies here as it does with nitrates and the like - that microscopic organisms (in this case good bacteria) can use these things in smaller amounts, and thus more quickly than higher organisms like plants...

if this is the case then plants need to get that N from somewhere, and dosing nitrates is safer for fish than dosing ammonia...


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The more I read and understand the more I think it's pretty simple.



If it's true that nh3/nh4 causes most algae from a fert side. (which I think I'm in that camp now)



Plants eat nh3, fish produce nh3. The most successful tanks are one's with very little fish and lots of plants, what a big surprise. But most aquarists don't do this, they put more fish in a given space then there would be in nature.



basically more plants, more wiggle room for error and to stay algae free. Less plants, more fish, less wiggle room.



I'm so proud of my ever so slightly younger brother. Sorry, I'm filling up with tears here

Tetras right, it is deceptively simple. We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.
There are a number of different methods that can work, all have remarkably similar princicples. Nutrient suuply is the key for all, they just differ in how they deliver them.
But , yep, lot's of plants with a low/moderate fish load and moderate lighting (2-3 wpg of PC/T5) is pretty much the simplest way, gives the most wiggle room by far.

Ever seen a big fish in an Amano tank ? Even his famous 2,000 or whaver gallon tank is just housing small tetras. All those gorgeous tanks you see on the net, you hardly ever see much fish.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.

Yes I'm trying desperately to get my collectoritis under control.


I made a point before somewhere else that one of the reasons people have so many problems with planted tanks is their fundamental approach. Not many would think of starting a reef tank, for example, without doing a lot of research and making sure they had all the appropriate equipment. Mainly due to the expenses involved in purchasing marine fish and corals. Lot's of people approach their first planted tank by picking up a couple of bad quality plants from an LFS and the ubiquitous bottle of "plant food". It never works. People end up thinking planted tanks are a whole lot more difficult then they actually are. Lot's of old crap on the net doesn't help.

How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.

It is simple, very simple, a routine that takes a few minutes a week takes care of most everything. It's the intial approach and start up that screws most people over.Not enough people appraoch the way Ingo and tetra did. They had their problems, but got past them relatively quickly. What they learned from that will help on the next tank they set up and they'll have fewer problems.

Algae panic attacks and tinkering cause a lot of problems. Patience, consistency and stability will solve most problems as well as good housekeeping, cleaning the glass,filters and equipment regularly. As tetra said tinkering usually causes a chain reaction, pretty soon you are not sure what caused what.

Think you have an issue ? Don't stop adding a particular nutrient. Reduce it, but only one at any given time, watch things to see if there's a reaction, good or bad, adjust accordingly.Keep notes. This takes 2-3 weeks but at least you always know where you are and you get a definitive answer. If not that nutrient move on to the next one on your list of suspects. Always start by checking Co2 and No3 first.

Example, LF you have thread algae so you reduce No3, Po4 and micros. So lets say the algae dissapears or even gets worse. Are you any the wiser? Not really because you have no idea which of the nutrients you reduced was the problems, if there's a chain reaction further down the line, you don't which nutrient is the problem. Could be the No3, the Po4, the FE ?

A better approach would be to reduce your prime suspect, the FE, only. Remove as much algae as you can first. Watch carefully, any new algae showing up, is it growing faster or slower, watch the plants for yellowing etc.Adjust accordingly. This will rell you what you need to know about FE and what level your tank can handle.If the FE levels don't make a difference, well at least it crossed off the list of suspects and you move on.

Changes should be gradual. It's slow but it works in the long term.

I don't know any of this, I'm not a plant biologist or any such thing. I can only share what I've observed and learned through the hundreds of dumbass mistakes I've made in my time (and not just with plants or tanks).

I'll stop rambling now.



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Bensaf,

What a lovely and long ode to the patience .

I certainly agree with you on the time it takes for one small change to show results. Also, I agree that multiple changes at the same time will, even when the results are good, not tell me which one of the changes causes what in the tank.

But :

Although I a messing with 3 values (N,P, FE) at the same time, I believe that only one of them is critical and should have an influence in my tank.

- I currently have 20ppm NO3 one day after a 50% water change. Can we conclude that based on EI my dosing (at current fish stock levels) is too high? By EI standards and healthy uptake, I should have 20ppm maybe at the end of the week as this would be the level of build-up, but not initially. If so, reducing the amount added should not cause anything to change, except if I would add too little.

- The same counts for P. I have 5ppm of P in my tank. If P is not the culprit for algae creation then lowering this value to about 2ppm should again have no effect. I for sure do not believe that 5ppm has any advantages. So, I reduce the amount added to adjust to 2ppm. This, by the way, will probably mean that I should not add any in the first few days after a water change (2ppm tab) but substitute later during the week when parts have been used up.

- The iron - this is the one that should show signs, either for the better or the worse. This is also my weak point because, as we mentioned before, my iron addition is coupled with all other micros and as such could show side effects not directly cause by lesser iron itself. I really have to switch to TMG, guess I will order it today .

Ingo


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Well thank you, Bensaf! between all your good advice and doing some of my own due diligence things started to click.
Fundamentally I think I understand things on a bigger and similiar level, but now to execute it.

One thing I'd change if I was starting over is my fish stocking. Definately fewer in total quantity and number of species. This is also for aesthetic reasons, it simply looks better. Same for plants, smaller number of species but bigger groupings.
Wow, you sound alittle like me. Less species all the way around. Some of the most pleasing images I see some times are tanks with 2 species of plants and 1 species of fish (not counting otos and shrimp) and strategically placed hardscape. And as appealing as that tank might look, eventually you will get bored and change it.

It really depends where you are in the hobby and what hobby your is. There's really three hobbies here: fish, plants, scaping.



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How many times have we seen folks say they want to start a planted tank but they'll add the plants first and up the lighting later, or they have the lighting now and add the plants bit by bit as the money becomes available. Always makes me groan, I can see the dying plants/alagae problem posts coming.



::gulp::

Those were the days...

We as hobyists tend to over complicate it. Pseudo science is a big problem in this hobby.


Generally I think you're right about this and I agree with what i think you're getting at, but just to add something: I agree that in the overall scheme of things we as aquarists/ aquascapers/ espei breeders/ destroyers of protists/ etc. should allow ourselves to embrace the overall simplicity of keeping our planted tanks successful. Bensaf and plantbrain spelled out just how simple it can be in several posts in this thread and others, and we sometimes overanalyze and make the experience more complicated than it need be. However, I would argue that in a lot of ways overanalyzing is part of the fun of it all. Trying to understand and experimenting is what keeps it fresh. As tetra pointed out, it's what you want out of the hobby that will drive how you approach it. For example, if your goal is just to have a planted tnak that's nice to look at, period, then by all means make it as simple as possible for yourself and dont think too much about it. Focus on results and make it that much easier. For others, such as myself, playing around and figuring things out (with a little guidance ) is what it's all about. For me, anyway, that's what makes it a hobby, and it's part of what keeps me interested. That's nto to say I DON'T want a nice looking tank, or that I'm willing to put up with perpetual iffy results because we all want a tank that's nice to look at in the end. Maybe someday I'll get fed up with the playing around and all, but for now I'm a young buck and...well.. pass the test kits, I'm goin' in!


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Nowher you are definitely somewher what that statement

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Well you 2,

Sounds good

Change of subject: I tested yesterday evening the water in the moss - no detectable Ammonia.

Also, I observed in the last two days (evenings) that the adult Espei take a group of about 10 to 15 younger ones out for a tour through the tank. It always begins about 30 min after feeding. The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Ingo


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The group forms and swims from left to right and back again. Occasionally they stop to take an extra spin around some plants or the Reactor and once in a while some get lost and have to wait until the rest swims by again. It is really cool.

Nice that you appreciate that, I certaintly do. I'm still torn on which way to go with a big school, On one hand the pencils look so solid, but the group of 5 don't really school that often, maybe 20 would, the rummys are also very solid and are great schoolers, but they occupy a low strata and they kinda blend in. I have 10 of 21 cardinals left, so I'm hesistant to spend about $4 a fish (after deaths) to establish a school that I know I will find remains here and there. although I haven't introduced any since I got my UV. I could move my golds from my 12g, but they'll probably die in my 72 :%)



Last edited by tetratech at 15-Dec-2005 12:48

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bensaf
 
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Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch [img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

Who wants to be Marcia ?

Yeah, people are into this aspect of the hooby for many different reasons. Some are into the fish and the plants are just a background and water quality aide. Some are into the plants and the fish are just accessories. Some like the scaping , artistic end and others the pure science. It's all good, whatever rocks your boat.

I guess for most of us it's a mixture of all of the above.

Don't know about you, but I never had a burning ambition to build a planted tank. Kind of fell into it (the hobby not the tank ). The wife wanted one ( a decision she has come to regret a hundred times over). I hated that purple graveled death trap. Decided if that was going to be in our home I'd try to make it look good. Damn plants kept dying. Wife wanted to get rid of it , I wanted to get rid of it. But my natural contrariness preventing me from dumping it until I had figured out how to whip those plants into shape. And so it began.

As I progressed and learned more the 'scaping became more of a focus.

I've always like the simplicity. But there were so many plants I wanted to try to grow, I smoke therefore I have zero willpower, so there were always a lot of plants in my tanks.

That's changed now because over the years I've grown pretty much them all. I know the ones I like, I know the shapes and growth patterns, I know what to put where, I know what are a PITA and which are easy. So the science and desire to collect fades and the scaping and arranging becomes more interesting.

Science is factual, so it becomes easy, it's a matter of simply learning and memorising. I find the "artistic" side more challenging and interesting. It's subjective, there's is no right or wrong answer, it's not something you can learn from a book, it's personal, like all art it reflects something of the spirit (or lack thereof) of the creator. Combine this subjective stuff with the practicalities of having to know a plant in order to place it in the proper location, knowing which ones to use and knowing how to keep them looking healthy, and you have a pretty fascinating hobby.

I've found the simple tanks more challenging. It's not so easy to create something interesting and insipring with a small limited amount of plants. It's not difficult to make a big bouquet of flowers look nice, trying doing the same thing with a handful of daisies and a shrub.

Schooling fish ! Tetra, I'd definately keep the pencils. The rummies, I agree, while real tight schoolers and nice fish, can be a bit monotonous watching them go back and forth across the front bottom of the tank day in day out.The size and shape is too similar to the pencils also. Cardinals and Neons I always found a bit ho-hum, they just seem to sit there. I really like the look of Lemons, I've seen a lot of them here, those are tight fish, they school like they are attached by string. The size is nice and the more compressed shape would a nice contrast to the others.
Green Fire Tetras are stunners when they are in a good tank, look like washed out Neon wannabes in LFS tanks,but when they mature are real knockouts.

Last edited by bensaf at 15-Dec-2005 20:50


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Well aren't we the loving sweet family today ? Kind of like the planted forum Brady Bunch


Golly, does everyone get so crabby when they get old?


p.s. I'll be Peter...or Bobby... or whoever's the guy that has that TV show with that model from the other TV show...


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Well Bensaf,

If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny, forgot the name though, the one who has control over almost all situations but occasionally messes things up .

As to “how did we get into planted tanks?” – It never struck my mind not to have a planted tank. Somehow fake decorations etc. never occurred to me as an option. I don’t know why, it just was that way.

As to my tank itself – Well, the threads are not lessening, actually they are multiplying. And yes, I haven’t dosed anything since last Saturday, but don’t yell at me. I needed to give it a try. Tonight (night before water change) I will measure my values again and see what the readings are compared to last Sunday.

I also ordered 5 liters of TMG from Big Al’s, that should last a few weeks . Did anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.

Ingo


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anybody read on the Tropica web site that soft water tanks need only half the dosage? I don’t seem to have read anything about this here yet.


If you check the bottle it also says you can increase the dosage by 50% in a well run tank.So it balances out.They give themselves wiggle room.

Go with the full dose. It's good stuff.


Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.
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If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny
That would be Alice.

Bensaf is Alice!

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If we are the Brady Bunch then you are the Nanny


Well he does have that dress....



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hmm.........A hit man in an Alice dress.........I don't know if we should go there!

LF,
I think that it is very cool that you started out the right way with live stuff. I started out with all sorts of fake stuff when I was younger. I have gradualy moved away from it because it just doesn't do much for me. You put it there and it never changes. Although some of the new fake plants actually look almost nice compared to the stuff I used to have.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Well he does have that dress....





Wingsdlc, I started out the same way. I still have my large plastic asian ambulia and silk sword plants in a box in my closet, and there they will stay. I remember getting really peaved when brown algae started growing on all my plants. I thought it was abnormal... as i said earlier, ahhh, the good ol' days



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Well, I can see already many many posts where we identify who is which Brady

I guess from an experience level I should be the youngest of the boys (don’t know his name either).

You guys and gals can pick one of the others

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If only because we share similar hair styles...



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Oh Man!!!!

Don't you guys have to work??

Any ways if we are going to do this we need to do it right. Don't you guys remember the stuff a bit back about slightly older and younger brothers?

I will take clams on one of the girls being what hair I do have is blonde!

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Ok then Wingsdlc, here you go:

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Thanks Little Fish! Not going to anwser about the have to work thing??

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Wow you guys really have way too much time on your hands O.o

Ingo seems you started in a similar fashion as I. fake ornaments just really weren't of interest when you could have the real things.

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Hm, lunch break maybe ?

I tend to relax from my job by taking short breaks once in a while and peruse the fish profiles.

Ingo

Megil: It wasn't so much that fake plants were not of interest, it literally didn't occur to me that this was an option. God knows how my tank would look like today if I would have thought about it before I started.

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Let be glad you didn't then They really shouldn't be an option O.o

You guys make one demented family BTW, *whistles*



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Oh man...





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After almost 800 posts these are the things that happen. I hope we don't crash the site it will be known as the Brady Syndrome.

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That is great! Can you put a gun in bensaf's hands? After all he is a hit man.

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There are no hands to add guns too Wingsdlc

Tetra. just a wee bit to much time on your hands



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Gang,

I did my water testing tonight. Just to refresh your memories (after all the Brady Bunch stuff ) I only dosed macros once right after the water change on Saturday and no micros at all.

Growth during the week has been strong, the duck weed on the surface has multiplied like mad. I will post a picture in a few minutes, right after I take it. There is more Algae and it occupies various plants in the tank, but nowhere as dense as on the moss. Here are the measuring results, first last week followed by this week (5 days between measuring):

Ph: 6.6 - 6.6
KH: 4 DH – 4 DH
CO2: 30ppm – 30ppm
Nitrates: about 20ppm – almost 20ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Phosphates: about 5ppm – almost 5ppm, there is a slight difference in color, but not much
Iron: Both times 0.1ppm and after 30 min about 0.3ppm

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr


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Well, the photo came out crappy, but I guess you will get the point of strong growth.

First last weeks picture:

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And now this week. Just look at the Rotala Macandra on the left and right, the Apons in the left back, the Ludwigia "bush", and so forth, even the Crypt Retrospiralis has now leaves that are way over 25" long.

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Looks nice LF

So your plants are growing, pearling, smiling, etc. and according to your tests barely any of the ferts are being used and inspite of this growth and density you have more algae which should be pushed out of it's niche by all those smiling plants.

That's a tough one, sorry I can't help you!

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No but seriously, IMO light is still a major trigger here. On one hand, the light, ferts, co2 extra is giving you really robust growth, but at the same time that light with all those little fishes is creating a cocktail that the algae are sucking down. I know, I know you measured nh3 and there is none, but it doesn't mean there's not enough in there for the algae. As we talked previously it is a fact the a heavy fish load makes a good balance harder to find. My tank's GW I believe is based more on mass/growth, when my plants were peaking and I was floating alot of plants and using the willow branches my tank did get clear, it got cloudy again (as Bensaf pointed out) when that growth/mass was gone. Now I've been dosing more than ever and I do not see any increase in algae and my rotala is making a major recovery and I'm starting to see something with the stargrass (a real head case plant)

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What The hell of I started. Even Matty pops up out of nowhere (which came as quite the shock to nowherman) to bring up the "dress".....dammit IT WAS A SARONG.

I'm way to young to be Alice.

Kinda thought tetra would have gone for the little girl with the bangs. I can see him in bangs for some reason

Changed my mind, you folks are more like the Manson family then the Brady Bunch.

I'd be wary of the test kits, that much growth simply has to have led to a reduction in levels.

BTW the tank is looking real good. I like the grassy look.
Mainly, for really the first time it has a very cohesive flowing look. It looks like one tank now. The eye can move from one side to the other without any jars or jolts.

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though. That would really take it to the next level.


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IT WAS A SARONG.
Sure whatever you say Bensaf.

I can see him in bangs for some reason
It was a toss up!

I'd love to see some driftwood in there though
My thoughts exactly or another boulder breaking up that big mass left center.

Another thing I would do would trim the group leftcenter and move the rotala m. right center into the grouping. It distracts in the corners and makes it very obvious that your hiding equipment, but at the same time it's a beautful plant so it draws your attention to the equipment.

Last edited by tetratech at 16-Dec-2005 20:00

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LF,

Your growth rate is really wild. The plants in my tank are growing well but nothing like what you have going on. Remember though that I have 3.25 WPG, dosing Excel, and running diy Co2. Thats it. I have some algae but nothing bad. Just the hard green stuff on the glass. I am probably going to start dosing some green stump remover but I am going to wait until after Christmas. It kind of scares me because thngs are going fine and I am not so sure I want to mess with it. I also don't want to deal with the over grown issue.

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Thanks all for the input.

Yeah, I don’t understand it either. The only explanations I have for the little changes in N and P are:

N is provided in form of ammonia (preferred by plants over NO3) from the 100 fish
P is used only in small quantities and that is why the kit can’t change colors as dramatic. I might very well have used up 1 to 2 ppm, but they are very close in color when in the 5ppm range.
As for the Iron, I am sure my kit sucks .

Today, I will have to do some major trimming again. The rotala on the right is breaking the surface, the moss needs to be cut off to get all the thread mass out, the ludwigia is growing too tall and shades it bottom parts completely, the pearl grass is very tall as well (will cut this and somehow try to create a larger group of it).

And I will remove about 70% of water to reset values. Then I will wait a little and do the testing yet again (maybe not iron though).

Ingo


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Another thought. With all those fish, how many espei now about (100) there's obviously poop, but on the opposite end you must be feeding enough. And if I read you correct your kinda a softy with the fish, so you probably make sure they all get some. So between the fish food, po4 additions you getting those numbers. Also your probably not doing much gravel vac these days. Again is it possible the substrate is leaching no3 and po4 into the water column. Just ideas.

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]:|]:|]:|]:|]:|

NOT a good day.

First off – I don’t like the way the tank looks now at all. I trimmed the Ludwigia and the Moss, tons of Moss. Somehow there is no balance in the tank anymore at all. Pictures will follow in a while.

Then I did a 70% water change and while I started to refill my wife decided to invite the neighbors to look at the tank. When I was almost done I realized that the heaters were on (they are supposed to shut off when the water falls too low) and the water temp was just above 70F. About 10 min after the tank was filled I heard this big cracking sound. The heater glass broke right in half.  !!!!

Raced of to the store, all they had was 200W Stealth, bought 2 for $80, raced home and put them in. Now I have 2x200W on the left and 1x300W on the right. I hope this works.

Ingo

PS: I hope the fish don't get Ich now.

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Och! Sorry to hear about that. Ya, I have the visi-therm stealth and I've never had a problem but I guess I will shut off when changing the water. You know they do sell inline heaters (Hydor) and I heard they were good. I have just one 250w heater on my tank and it heats the water fine.

and the water temp was just above 70F.
Why was the temp so low. Don't you match tank temp during WC?

Last edited by tetratech at 17-Dec-2005 14:21

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Thanks tetratech,

I guess it will take a few hours until the tank is heated back to the normal 76F. This tank is driving me crazy .

Anyways, here is the tank now:

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EDIT: yeah tetratech, I usually check with my hand (normally I am off only by 1 degree plus minus). But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid ]:|.

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 17-Dec-2005 14:24
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But as I said, the wife got a whole family to come over and watch the tank while I refilled it, with 2 small kids. I forgot to check if the temp was ok after the water ran for a while as I had to make sure nobody did something stupid

Believe me, I could definitely relate. I always get nervous the kids are going to fool around in the kitchen and crack my tank. I actually stick a thermoter in the sink so when I'm adjusting temp with the python it shows me what the water temp is and then I fill.




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I prefer these junglesque arrangements to other, heavily pruned, straight edged aquascapes. VERY nice.
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Thanks Cup

I appreciate it.

“junglesque” – I will have to remember that. Yeah, that was the style I was going for all the way .

I have to admit that it doesn’t look as bad as I may have made it sound before I posted the picture. I added a small powerhead (Rio 90) to the left back as the way the Apons and the Crypt Retro were flowing was just awful after the trimming of the big Ludwigia bush. Now they seem to flow nicer (in my opinion).

I wonder if I soon should try to split the Crypt and how I would go about this. Probably dig it out and take any potential baby plant off and plant it separately, right?

Ingo


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Weekly Update – Week 12

Well, this was a week of experimenting with my fertilizers. Although I have dosed K, N, and P only once and micros not at all my readable values on the test kits barely showed a change. Ideas of how this can be are manifold, but none is conclusive. Maybe it has to do with the increased fish load and amount of food I provide (tetratech’s last idea) and I should try to monitor if it all gets eaten soon enough. I am certain that I feed too much (only once a day though) as I want to make sure that the tiny ones at the bottom get their share too.

I also managed to have a heater blow out after a 70% water change. This sucker was supposed to shut off when the water level falls (I think) but I guess it didn’t; and a major distraction led to me filling the tank with only 70F warm water. All it took was 10 more minutes and bang – the glass cracked in half.

Currently my worries are concerning future fertilizer dosages, if the trimming this weekend will limit the algae in the tank, if my fish will show any damage from the temperature difference (like Ich), and if I should try another round of Excel treatment to further limit the algae (the last half-hearted one did not succeed). So plenty to keep at least my brain busy .

The pictures will be of week 0, 3, 6, 9, and yesterday – week 12.

I will also tag on a few detail shots and a section regarding the life of the Espei .

Ingo

Week 0 – how it all started

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Week 3 – the “weed” phase

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Week 6 – scaping attempts begin

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Week 9 – scape is taking more shape

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Week 12 – yesterday – major removal of moss and trimming (cutting tops and removing bottoms) of ludwigia. Also trimmed the rotala. The Apons have grown pretty much to the surface now , the sword uruguayensis doesn’t do much and is still not visible in pictures (is in front of reactor)

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Now some detail shots:

First up some nice long algae threads lower in the tank on the sags. This kind is settled by now in various places, low and high.

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A nice shot of the crypt – pearl grass – apon group, with some of the trimmed ludwigia on the right

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Another glosso shot, taken because of the vertical growth that appears in places with limited light. Almost like a regular stem plant.

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Uh, now some days in the life of the Espei:

This is one that is maybe 2 weeks old. Pretty much the whole fish is see-through and the tiny yellow and black spot are developing.

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And here is one that is approximately 4 weeks old. The markings become clearer, in particular the black spot.

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Now this one is a juvenile of about 7 weeks. The body shape is pretty much that of an adult now, the coloration stretches the complete section as in adults, but is a rather bright yellow.

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Here we have a juvenile that is old enough to join the adults in the school, at least for some time during the day. I guess the age is about 10 weeks. The coloration has now turned more to the characteristic orange-yellow that is seen in adult females.

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Last but not least here is a male adult in “breeding” colors. He is truly red and when seen in the tank he sometimes has even a tint of purple to it.

[font color="#C00000"]Make sure that you see the pictures on the previous page showing younger Espei [/font]

Ingo

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May I say it's very pretty thread algae. You know there are some setups I've seen that are put together just showing algae. Sometimes it's attractive. I would definitely do the calibration. I think for the most part test kits usually work, but there's no benchmark for the color. You need to set that and test off of that. It will be interesting to see if your fert adjustments do anything, but the whole idea of EI is that you don't have to worry about fine-tuning you could dose in excess and than it's removed via WC. You are doing 50% weekly. How many fish are really in the tank? My vote is still for high fish load, high light ---- Algae!! 3 wpg on a 125 is alot of light. You could try reduced the peak period to like 2 hours and see what affect it has.

BTW - On the Rotala M. are you ditching the bottoms and replanting tops only?



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tetratech,

Thanks for the compliment on the beauty of my algae

It took me quite a while until I had the tank parameters correct so it grows horizontally like your Wisteria

I have reduced the light last week to 3 hours, but didn’t find this worth mentioning. So out of only 11 hours lighting period 8 are on slightly over 1.5wpg.

Even EI desires a max of NO3 of 20ppm and the default values for adding it are tuned to no fish and food additions. So it makes only sense that you have to adjust the values when “other” factors are coming into play.

The Rotala – once in a while I replant tops while other times I just cut off tops and let the bottoms in the substrate.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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male usa
Uh, I forgot to add a close-up of the trimmed Rock Valley.

Here it is at rush hour

LITTLE_FISH attached this image:



Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club
Post InfoPosted 26-Jan-2006 11:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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***** Little Fish *****
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Registered: 20-May-2005
male usa
Ok,

So I did what I actually wanted to do yesterday, measuring my tank parameters. I limited it to N and P.

Remember, I did a 70% water change and before that had about 20ppm N and close to 5ppm of P. My tab is (by last measure from quite a while ago) around 2 ppm of P. I haven’t added any ferts (except 1/2 a tsp of Seachem Equilibrium) to the tank after the water change and fed the fish once since then.

N is around 10ppm and P maybe 3ppm (hard to tell, but closer in color to 2 than 5). Both values make somewhat sense, in particular the P. The N seems a little high, but measuring steps of 5 – 10 -20 leave room for color mistakes. Pretty much what I expected then.

So I will dose the following macros today:

EDIT: Value correction
KNO3 – 1/2tsp
Potassium Sulfate– 1/4tsp
P – nada

For the micros I will wait until tomorrow and hope my TMG will arrive as I have not much faith in Plantex anymore (for no particular reason, but I cannot even find a table or such anymore where I could check how much I am supposed to add – I thought I got the initial value of ½ a tsp from APCs fertilator, but it is not there anymore).

Ingo

Last edited by LITTLE_FISH at 18-Dec-2005 17:44


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