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  L# LITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
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SubscribeLITTLE_FISH 40G Breeder Log
LITTLE_FISH
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So, how was that again?

If the anal, dorsal, and caudal fin are red then it is a Triple-Red?

Hm, he has red in all three, but there seems to be at least some yellow at the base of the dorsal and caudal fins. I wonder if that still counts:

Attached Image:

Male II



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 00:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Here is another side shot of him, showing off a little more blue on his face.

From the base structure, he is slightly different from my male viejita as he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal?

Attached Image:

Male III



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LITTLE_FISH
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Last but not least,

Robyn, didn't you mention that they have big mouths? I knew that from my viejita, but I was able to capture it on film (eh, digital image) for the first time. I guess that is what you need when you eat snails in one bite.

Or maybe he is just sleepy

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male IV



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Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 01:03Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bratyboy2
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very nice pics i have just plain orange tailed one that i got from a friend. their okay i guess... but yah anyway
Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 01:28Profile AIM Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Red on all 3 points, now if what I read is right, that makes him a triple. That's what LFS told you too, so it would seem to be right. Everything on him looks redder, now he's not in the bag. Your female is very pretty & has more markings than mine, plus mine is more yellow I think. No blue lips on my female.

That is a great shot of his open mouth. Love it. Your pictures are so good and clear. My tank lights currently off, but I'll check for a slight bump on head, but I've not noticed it previously.

Beautiful looking fish Ingo.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 02:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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he has somewhat of a hump on his forehead. Is that normal
Looked more close at my males head & what I noticed is that above his mouth & up to his eyes he has ridges (looks a bit like when someone raised their eybrows & maybe gets those lines - but more like folds of skin. Then a very slight flattening & rises again after his eyes. I think yours looks normal.

I looked at my females mouth, & maybe I can see just a hint of blue on her lips. Not a solid blue line though - only just parts show a hint of blue (maybe). She has the basic same shape lip as him, but so much smaller that it is hardly noticable.

Did these guys feed easily or you?

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 06:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks bratyboy2 and Robyn,

As I stated in your log, Robyn, your male has more red than mine in the fins. Given that my male is barely larger than the female, there are two things I conclude:

- He is not grown up yet, but she is. So he still has time to color up until adulthood hits.
- Maybe your female isn't all grown up yet and that is why you cannot see the blue lip.

Feeding: I fed them for the first time last night (I don't feed fish on the day they come out of the bag, too stressful for them to digest well).

I started off with a tropical fish flake mixe (I alway crunch the flakes to be smaller). Both fish did not come to the surface where the 3 resident Platies were eating away, but quite a few flakes were sucked under by the current from the HOB and they ate these. Messy eaters, I may say, I would guesstimate that over half of the food is expelled from the gills, maybe a sign that they don't really like it (yet).

Next I added some freeze dried blood worms, but they all floated. I oberseved one piece going down and that one was first eaten by the female (and expelled right after) and then by the male, also expelled. At least that one particular piece was not to their likings.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 12:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Thought this link might interest you http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/apistogramma_cacatuoides.php.

Maybe this one too http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1437

But I bet you'll tell me you read these already, right?

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 14:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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You know Robyn,

I haven't seen either or link before, thank you very much. Sometime today, if I have an hour or two to spare, I will peruse these links and many others to identify more closely what I exactly have there.

BTW, did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 15:01Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bratyboy2
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so have you gotten them to breed at all... im waiting for mine to in my pool filter sand tank
Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 22:19Profile AIM Yahoo PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hi bratyboy2,

Well - if you read my entries then you must have seen that I only got them two days ago, so take it easy

Give them some time to settle, I am not in a rush. If they want to breed, then I will let them. If not, fine as well.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Jul-2006 22:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Weekly Tank Update - Week 7

A few things have happened during this week, none of which are very dramatic, but worthwhile mentioning anyway. I will get to these points at the appropriate detail shot, so bare with me.

To start, here is a shot from last weekend, for comparison purposes:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is the tank from last night, after maintenance and water change.

The first thing you may notice is a different look of the Barteri, and with it more light to the front left section. The second, and last, thing you may see is a change of parts of the wood positioning of the left group:

Attached Image:

Latest Full Tank Shot



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LITTLE_FISH
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Before the water change, I notice a small section in the tank, confined to two to three leaves of the micros sword, on which thread algae (the longer kind, maybe staghorn) started to grow.

This area is right next to the spot (the rock to the right in the main shot) where I feed the Otos some cucumbers. I believe this is related. The one slice I added this week was completely eaten within 2 days.

Attached Image:

Some Threads



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 13:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I am rather certain that my water quality is currently a little worse than it used to be. The reason for this is that quite a few parts of the micro swords are deteriorating, most likely an unavoidable side effect of forming small plugs of them when planting as some sections of these plugs may get damaged or not planted properly.

Here you may be able to see some brown parts on the lower area of the swords:

Attached Image:

Swords Issue



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LITTLE_FISH
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The next, and by far biggest issue of this week, was the discovery that the Barteri is disintegrating in two spots where it had sections that broke off during transport to my house.

The first sign was a dying leaf about a week ago, and this week another one followed and required me to take a closer look.

Attached Image:

Dying Barteri Section



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 13:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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When I touched the area of the rhizome in which the leaf was dying I could feel that it was all mushy. I took the scissors and attempted to cut the rhizome back, under water. Now that was fatal. First of all, the scissors were not sharp enough to get a clean cut. Secondly, the whole Barteri came lose. Third, the wood of that group started to shift in the process

This is, in general, the one thing I don't like about lots of small braches that form a group, they shift all the time. Last week it was the right group, this week the left.

Back to the Barteri, I had to take it out of the tank, trim 2 sections way back, tie it to a rock, and place that one onto the left hill. This concluded in the new look of that area.

I don't know if that was enough to stop the disintegration of the plant, we will see. Here is a close-up of the group:

Attached Image:

Left Group



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LITTLE_FISH
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And for completion purposes, here is a shot of the right group.

Oh, almost as important, but not captured in a picture, I discovered a life form on the tank glass, approximately 1 to 2 mm long, skinny, white, and moving quite fast. Copepods of some sort? Dangerous? How come?


Attached Image:

Right Group



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 13:51Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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I think these animals have come in with the last plant order, I have to say that the micro sword was not the cleanest plant I ever received. Do you remember that I mentioned the mini rain worms that I discovered in the bucket after cleaning the plants (like tubifex worms)? Another passenger group that came in were snails, most likely common pond snails. For now they are not too bad yet, and in a few weeks I will have fish in the tank that will appreciate them as live food.

Attached Image:

Snail



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LITTLE_FISH
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The last 2 shots are commited to the future residents of this tank, my new Apistos that I purchased as part of a trade in of 30 Espei from the 125G. These Apistos are currently in the 20G QT, but they are displayed here as this is their tank in the long run.

Here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
EDIT: Make sure to read the Weekly Update on the previous page, I have a few questions

And here is the male. So far, they stay mostly out of each others way in the QT. Once in a while the male slowly comes closer to the female until he is at her side, then he gives her a nudge and she swims away, not in a rush though. This, I believe, has nothing to do with mating, I believe he would like to occupy the hiding spot that she has at that moment as this never happens in the open water.

Attached Image:

Male



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Wingsdlc
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Algae: Give it a big shot of Excel. Should turn red and go away.

White things: I think there was a thread about this not too long ago.

Female Apisto: Is that a snail on the righthand side eatting the wisteria?



55G Planted tank thread
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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 14:27Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
did you see Theresa's pictures of her Cacs in the photo booth? I find the female to look completely different than mine.
Yes I did & I don't recognise my female amongst her photos either.

I tried hard to get a good shot of my girl to show you, but all turned out poor. Rather than clutter up your log, they are in my log http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/28921.2.htm?38# if you want to look. There are 3 of them, individually not very good, but maybe after you've viewed all 3, you may get an idea of how my girl looks.

Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help.

Re: breeding behaviour. I've noticed with both my apistos, that when the female is in the mood she tilts her body sideways at the male, flashing her belly at him. First noticed it with my bita girl, as she quite a passionate girl (either hates her mate or loves him) then watched for the same in the cacs. My female cac is doing it tonight, but the male is not taking the hint at the moment.

I wonder if you will see this tilting to the side movement of the female. Does your other apisto girl do it at all?

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 15:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
DeletedPosted 30-Jul-2006 15:12
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Wish I could help on your other queries, but I know the more knowledge plant nerds will be able to help

Hey, I'm no nerd. I play softball, coach soccer and bowl on a mens bowling team

Any who. This all started after you removed all those "weed" from the tank. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Sloooow moves. I don't believe in big changes to a tank at once. Tut, tut, none of your feable excuses about floating plants, yada, yada, yada.

Mimic nature, everything happens slowly. Tanks have to adjust to differences in plant mass and fish load. There is wiggle room off center, but there has to be balance.

I doubt if the cucumber feeding caused the algae. I know you and Robyn like to feed the little guys, but I don't think they need anything extra. I noticed alot of droppings in the tank. I do drop algae wafers in my tank from time to time because I'm in short supply of the stuff.



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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 15:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Hey,

I am not complaining about the algae (yet, ), I was simply stating that it was there. And it was in only one spot, too much of a coincidence to be not related to the cucumber (and maybe the bunch of poop that was nearby as all Otos must have eaten at least their own body weight in 2 days).

Wings, the snail is not eating the leaf per say, the leaf just happens to be in bad shape from the replant (didn't get good light before replant, was mixed in with Moss) and a snail just happened to eat on it.

Robyn, yes, my other girl does that as well, at least once in a while. I am not sure if this is a mating thing though. I would assume that the belly area of a fish is one of its most vulnerable areas. I assume that offering this area to another fish is a form of submission in general, showing that the other fish is accepted as the boss. Other animals do the same thing by offering their throat.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 22:16Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well, that is a true bummer, I am so mad

The male Apisto is dead, I just found him in his cave. I assume his "hiding" was not a sign of mating or what not, he must have been sick. I will call the LFS tomorrow to see what they would have to say as even Tom, the main fish guy, found it a little odd that he was hiding in that tank (but he assumed it was because of mating stuff).

This is the worst nightmare, now I only have a female left, grrrrr

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 23:34Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
Wingsdlc
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Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost a fish yesterday that has not been recorded in my log yet so I know it sucks. Look at it this way. Maybe the LFS will hook you up with a new male and throw in a female for super cheap? One can only hope though. Best wishes!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
Post InfoPosted 30-Jul-2006 23:59Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I'm so upset for you Ingo. I hope they will offer you another male - you had him for such a short time. Either that, or they refund you & take back the female. My fingers are crossed for another male though.

I felt close to these fish of yours. My heart dropped when I read your post. That really sucks.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 00:32Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Sorry to hear about the fish. I'm sure the store will do right by you. I never thought the fish looked great in the pictures, but I couldn't put my finger on it.



My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 01:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, don't be upset when I say this, but looking closely at pics of the male, I can maybe see what Tetratech is saying. I may be imagining it, but does the male look like his body is too curvy? If you can see what I think I can see (too curvy body) maybe you can take the pics to LFS as justification for a replacement pair.

When I bought mine, each mated pair was in a sep. tank. Was that the same where you bought them? If so, maybe you could argue that they take your female back & replace with a complete new mated pair. If they weren't paired up in this way, put your case forward for a replacment male. If you are a regular cusotmer, hopefully they will value your custom enough to oblige. Those few days you had him - it's just not fair to be now stuck with a lone female.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 01:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
bensaf
 
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The algae looks like what some folks call carpet plant algae. I think it's a form of Utriculria.

It just seems to get into thick carpets of plants. I always had a problem with it with hairgrass. Never found a way to get rid of it except plucking it out. It never spreads beyond the base of carpet plants.

Sorry but the only cure I found was removing or seriously thinning the hairgrass.


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 05:02Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Bensaf - thanks for the info on the carpet algae, I will keep that in mind when it starts to spread. The particular section displayed in the photo was the only one in the tank that has been infected so far, and that part was easily pulled out, so right now I am clean again.

All others - thanks for the support on the dead Apisto, it still upsets me. The outlook lof a replacement is rather dim and most likely costly as well, here are some points:

- The LFS has a big sign that says "No guarantee for fish"
- The LFS has at most (if at all) one pair of each species of Apistos (with the occasional exception), and I bought the one Caca pair
- The LFS fought me when I claimed that I got a sick Pearl Gourami a while back, I had to argue like mad over a $5 fish to get it refunded
- Online offers of fish are also for pairs only, I don't know if I am into the idea of using both "hills" in the tank as shelter for 2 females
- Online offers are usually young adults and I have a fully grown female at home

Nevertheless, I will give the LFS a call today and tell them what happens, then I usually get the spiel "bring in the fish and a water sample", and of course I threw out the fish (no freezer entry allowed - wife).

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 14:00Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,
Your not exactly a typical customer that loses a fish due to poor water quality and besides your Published
If all this fails tell them one day their gonna get a visit by a mysterious man in a trench coat who goes by the name of NOWHER

Switching to your plants. I had microsword along time ago back when I was probably a "BigFish" or something. You can't trim the tops is the correct. It's like any other sword plant.

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 14:24Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Yes tetratech, you are right, I am not a typical customer. Let's see how far this will get me, I will keep you guys posted on the outcome of the phone call.

You know, I was looking at the micro swords yesterday and wondered about the same thing myself: "what would happen if I trimmed off the tops?" I am sure it would look nice, a neatly trimmed lawn in the tank. But seriously, what would be the consequences? Would the whole leaf die?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 14:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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Funny thing about water testing. O.K. so you bring your sample in like some poor little kid who lost his goldfish and the LFS employee who probably isn't old enough to baby sit your kids let alone your fish, tells you it's high on nitrAtes that's why your fish died. Then you start explaining the who hi-tech, hi-fert, co2 planted tank thing and

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LITTLE_FISH
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The one time when I brought a water sample to the LFS, a long time ago, I measured all values before bringing it in, this was a low tech tank (29G) and all values were 0. I was told that I have a tiny amount of Ammonia (or Nitrite, don't remember) and that was why my Neons died

Tiny, as in not detectable, and they use the same kit (or worse) than I do.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 15:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
Hey*shakes fish at LF and Tetratech*!

I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2. Ammonia, nitrIte, and pH is what we test. We ALWAYS either give cash back to the costomer for their purchase, if the water looks like crap, or get them a new fish. Our guarantee states that you have a week if you bring the receipt, the fish, and a seperate water sample. The water sample shouldn't be used to blame the costomer, but to determine if another fish goes home, that's acceptable. But lets be honest here, try going into wal-mart or something and ask for a refund without the product. That's a nobrainer. They won't give you anything but a laugh. Fish stores however are expected to still give money back. This is silliness, and something I have a beef with our store, because we will give money back without proof that they bought the fish at our store or that the fish even died. Sometimes you get an honest guy like LF that really lost his fish and tossed it, but most of the time I KNOW we are getting screwed.

Sorry this all comes from a year+ of getting harassed by costomers. Once I was even told that I shouldn't work there because I didn't know anything about one of the rarer fish we had in the store(the costomer obviously didn't know either, why ask right?). Like I should know everything about all the fish in all 320 tanks we have.

[/rant]

but still see what you can get them to do, we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. AND we never sell our apistos as pairs.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:05Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Matty,

I would love to shop at your store, and to be helped by you would be my pleasure. As to my LFS:

- we'd give you money back, or a new fish without even blinking an eye. No No

- AND we never sell our apistos as pairs. No No

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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Well first off, my trenchcoat days are over, sorry i can't help you there LF.



But keep in mind Apisto Cac. is a harem breeder. Adding another M/F should work, unless you just don't want the dynamic. The females may fight a bit at first but you have plenty of room in that tank, I don't see it being a problem. The choice is yours, obviously, but a new male would gladly take to the old female for breeding purposes, it's just in their nature.


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I'll stand up for the LFS employee, being one myself, and plenty old to babysit a couple of snot nosed kids. First we don't check for nitrAtes, as that is very rarely a cause of death from costomers, seriously. If it is you can tell from the pH which is at like 2.

Matty, I know you work in a LFS and this was not meant as a blanket statement for all stores so please don't take it personally, but it does happen, because it happened to me. The store was trying anything to not give me credit. And there are at times very young employees working there, but there are also older gentlemen as well. Even very seasoned LFS stores that specialize in saltwater fish, when I tell them I'm adding no3 to my planted tank they look my like I have 3 heads.

I put this in the "With Planted Aquaria throw alot of pricipals out the window (cycling, anerobic bacteria impact, nitrates, etc.)"

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 16:53Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The idea of simply getting a second pair, and as such ending up with 1m / 2f, has crossed my mind. In detail, the considerations are:

- both females will set up breeding quarters, I would assume logically that they would be under or around the individual wood groups. As such both breeding spots in the tank are taken and don't leave space for another kind of "herder", like Rams.

- I am not sure about aggression between females when competing for one male. Assuming that a new pair would ultimately conclude in one female being younger than the other, this could become a problem.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 18:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK,

I have news:

I just hung up the phone from a talk to the LFS, with their senior fish guy. He remembered that the male was a little strange and had no issues giving me store credit for it. He even gave me options:

- return the female and get $50 credit
- get another pair (when available) and pay only for the female
- get another male only (when available)

Now, that was a nice and almost unexpected move on their end and puts my ranting to shame

So, what to do? I like the female, she has a very nice coloration and markings (except a yellow body though yet), but what if she would be sick too (behaves normal and feeds nicely)?

Thanks for informative input,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 19:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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The pair cost $50. Were they established breeders? If so that's still a bit pricey. If that's a price for a mated pair(established as breeders) then I'd take the female back and get a new mated pair. If it's just a m/f pair then I'd keep the female if she seems healthy. That would be a ton of hassle to get her out of there.

And no offense taken, I just gotta back up the LFS once in a while. They always get bashed, so I gotta go and bash the costomer back....not that it was directed at you guys either. I'm sure you guys would be the 1 in 20(kind of a stretch, maybe 1 in 30-40) costomer that you are actually happy when they walk in the door.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Jul-2006 20:25Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
TW
 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, that is good news. That's a hard one, now that you have CHOICES. I've heard that 2 females can, or can't work - it depends on the females personality & how tolerant she is of another female. As you will have lots of wood & plants to create visual barriers, you have a very good chance of it working & your tank is fairly big too.

Why don't you hold onto to the female until a pair arrives & then decide which female you like best, or if you want to keep both? Or is it likely to be too long a time till he gets more in? Or is it because you are worried the female will succumb to sickness too? If you are even a little worred about that last scenario, I would take her back now while you can, & start again with a new pair.

Anyway, that is great news.

Matty, the LFS you work at sounds like a great place to shop. Pity you're so far across the ocean from me. I hope you don't get too many customers taking advantage of your great policy.

I've had some really great LFS, who have bent over backwards & gone above & beyond, but my 1st LFS . Unusally, this LFS records all customer purchasers against your customer no on their computer - so they know what you've bought. I have bought 3 tanks from them & another one for my stepdaughter, with the associated gravel & what not. In February I bought 8 harlequin rasboras from them. In less than a week, all of them had died. They knew the purchase was from them. They tested my water & tried to find every way they could to say it was my fault, although he reluctantly said my water was fine (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 & pH was 7.2). He said maybe it was the pH that killed them at 7.2 & very reluctantly, he credited my store account. I bought products with the credit, but never a fish from him again. Not because I thought his fish would all die, as I'm sure it was just one bad batch of fish. He made me feel I was a liar & maybe that I intentionally killed my fish. I wouldn't even mention to a LFS if a few died (unless they are costly apistos) - but all of them?????

Since then, I've found other LFS who I think give great service & look after me well. The moral of the story is that there are 2 sides in most situations & not all LFS are the same. Some are great, some not so great. Yours sounds great.

That's so good that you sell apisto as singles. Here you can buy rams, bolivians or african cichlids as singles, but apistos are very hard to find in Aus & are ONLY sold as pairs - that's if you can even find apistos at all.

Keep us posted on yours, Ingo.

Cheers
TW
Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:27Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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OK gang,

Here is the update, but don't kill me for it.

So I call the LFS at night to see what they got, and although they ordered a pair of Triple-Red they did not get it in as the wholesaler told them it was in bad shape and didn't look good. Instead, they got a beautiful pair of what they call Double-Orange.

I was offered to wait, return the female, get a new pair, and what not, and decided on getting the double orange and bringing the female triple red back to the LFS. So, equipped with a fish bag, I marched downstairs to fish her out, but looking at this beautiful fish I could not do it. So I decided to keep her, for better or worse.

Well, I went to the LFS and the orange one looks very nice as well...

Anyway, here is the male (what can I say, I am a sucker)

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:45Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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And just to tell you, they are so closely related that the fry of the orange has some triple red in it. Read THIS LINK for details on them, although they call them Orange Flash.

And here is the female:

Attached Image:

Female Double-Orange



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:47Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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The male is still pretty young, but at least as big as the female (bigger, I think). Here is his first encounter with the resident female.

Oh oh

Attached Image:

First Encounter



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LITTLE_FISH
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And here is his second encounter, this time he is showing off his nice orange finnage.

I hope he impresses her enough to be a possible mate.

Attached Image:

Second Encounter



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LITTLE_FISH
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Not only he was visited by the resident female, the new female got to meet her as well. Scary, but nothing else than raised fins happened so far.


Attached Image:

Female Check-Out



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:52Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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As you know, my 20G QT is not that densly planted right now. So I stole a small flower pot from the wife, banged open the small hole a little, and placed it in the tank as an additional hiding spot.

Please let me know what you think, I have about 1h left before they come out of the bag, tell me if I should change something. And - what do you think about the 3 fishies now?

Here is a full shot:

Attached Image:

Tank with Fish in Bags



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 01:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
NowherMan6
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LF, how did I know this would happen...

I like them, they look good. And good idea leaving extra hiding spots. If anything maybe move the pot to one side or the other, and add another pot or two on the other side. Having it right in the middle may effectively establish someones territory in the middle of the tank, leaving the other with veyr little room on the side.


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 02:05Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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NowherMan6,

What can I say, the female Triple-Red looked at me and I could not let her go (sucker).

I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides. There is a good hiding spot below the heater in the right back, and another ok one on the left side of the tank by the wisteria and the rock.

Do you think this would do for one day? The store just got them in today and I don't want to reduce the water quality with floating crap (maybe even literally).

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 02:12Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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I would have to destroy the scape and in the process maybe mess up the water column (floating stuff currently in the Eco) to add pots to the sides

Um, very nice fish, but the scape is history, because
THERE'S A RED FLOWER POT IN IT.

I respectly request that this thread be moved to Cichlid Central

My Scapes
Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 02:19Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
LITTLE_FISH
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Well,

The tank that you see is not this tank - it is the QT. As such, if at all, that thread should be moved there

BTW, Tom from the LFS mentioned to me today that he thought the male didn't look all that good either, but he was hoping I could beef him up a little. We all know how that ended. On the other hand, he says this male is in good (excellent) shape.

Ingo


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OK,

Last entry for today:

The fish have been introduced about 10 min ago. The room in which the tank is has had all lights off except for the 125G lighting, so it was pretty dark, but enough for me to peek on the events in the tank.

First the male was hiding, but then started to swim around. He encountered the triple red female first and displayed, but she didn't seem too impressed. At least she didn't attack him.

Next he found his double orange mate, there the display was way more intense, with swimming head to caudal fin (toe) next to each other, fins wide spread, and a nudge to make her move away (on purpose, or part of ritual, I don't know). No doubt he is working on the Boss role, we will see what the resident female thinks about that.

The two females have seen each other from the distance, but not up close yet. This actually for me is more scary than the male/female encounter, I am a little worried that the stronger one will seriously hurt or even kill the weaker one.

Then the 125G went dark too and I couldn't see anything any longer.

Good night,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 03:14Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Those Orange flashes are just gorgeous Ingo. He's so much nicer looking than you're other male - brilliant colour. Orange Flash is the name I know these by too.

You can get much smaller flower pots, the smallest I have are only 1.5inches deep & 1.75inches in diameter. You can get them in varying increasing sizes. These smaller ones can be much better hidden. If rocks can unintentially be hidden from view, then surely these small pots can too. They are hidden in my 23.5 & can't be seen. I expect yells of protest for this - but it will depend on if you need them for fishy safety really - that was what forced me to add them.

I still like the idea that someone (was it Rick?) gave you earlier in your 125G about using plastic black film cannisters with a hole drilled in the end. I started collecting these & was going to use them (you wouldn't even see these - they'd blend with the black eco & put plants around them). Not sure if LFS was right, but he told me to be careful just in case the plastic leached toxins. I don't see how it could, as I thought the plastic would be inert, but still, it has scared me from using them. What do you think - do you think it sounds like fact or nonsense.

Anyway Ingo, back to your fish. They are simply gorgeous. Glad they came in so quickly. The link/s I gave you also mentions them (as Orange Flash) and tells how the orange flash can have fry of all the red varieties too. BTW, that site you linked to is where I got all my advice for dealing with aggression in my apistos. Very helpful bunch, if you need specialised advice.

Look forward to hearing future breeding news

Have fun. Glad your day has ended in such a happy note.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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Thanks Robyn for the comments on the new fishies. As it is still dark right now, I don't even know if they are still alive, but we will see (actually, I will find out no earlier today, except if I call the wife from work later on to go downstairs and check on them).

The pot - well, that is only a temporary solution. I compromised the "desgin" of this tank as it is primariy a QT and has to fulfill that purpose. Once (and if) all 3 survive for long enought (4-5 weeks) I will add them to the 40G and in there are certainly 2 good spots, one for each female, that will not require the addition of artificial hiding spaces.

When I added the pot I was scambling to find anything that I can use, and this was the smallest my wife had. I also looked into the toy collection from my children (evil me) to see if there is a smaller similar shaped container, but while doing so I thought about toxins leaching from plastic and decided against it. True or not, I don't know, but better safe than sorry. Film roll containers feel different when touched than children toys, but I could imagine that they are treated in some form, for example to reduce the built-up of moisture. But I am just guessing.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 10:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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OK, seems the toxins from plastic theory may have merit, as you also preferred to be safe, rather than sorry. I'll take that route also & remain safe. Thanks for the comments on that.

Cheers
TW
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LITTLE_FISH
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No problem Robyn, I am always glad to be able to state my opinion, even if it does not hold any merit

Let us keep our fingers crossed that this trio will live happily ever after, maybe tonight I can post a few shots of the guys in the tank.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 13:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Nice fish! I like the orange better than the reds... that is just me though...

Ahh off to hike to class in the heat!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Ingo, you constantly tease me with your pics. If it wasn't for an empty wallet, I would have setup a 40g planted tank of my own so sit beside my 120g monster tank. Pics look amazing. Are those guys from AF?
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Yup Mike,

They are from AF, Tom was very helpful as the original pair of Triple-Red that I aquired last Thursday saw the loss of the male on Sunday and Tom was kind enough to agree that the male didn't look all that good in the LFS tank either and as such offered me all kinds of options.

So I opted to keep the female Triple-Red and go for a pair of Double-Orange (Orange Flash, if I am not mistaken) on top of it.

And - Midnight Madness is coming up soon, so maybe your wallet is full enough for this

Wings - have fun in the heat (and thanks for the comment on the latest addition)

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 18:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Ok,

So here is an update from what I have seen going on in the QT within the last 20 min.

First off, a list of all payers involved.

Let us start with the resident female, the Triple-Red, who is for sure the oldest of the gang:

Attached Image:

Triple Red Female



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Moving on to the new female, the Double-Orange, or should I call them Orange Flash? She is the smallest of all 3, but not all that much smaller than the male.

She stays mostly close to the bottom, but unlike the sick triple red she is out and about, on the right side of the tank:

Attached Image:

Double Orange Female



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And on to the boss man, the male Double-Orange. He is all over the tank as well, sometimes nicely colored while othertimes in his "I am scared" dark gray outfit.

His fins are still a little ragged, but if this is the only problem I will encounter then I am happy.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Male



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Post InfoPosted 01-Aug-2006 23:42Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Unfortunatley, this picture shows what I observed in the tank, in particular during feeding when she ventured into other areas of the tank to grab a bite. He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn. Not always though, sometimes he is showing her his side first.

As a result, she didn't seem to have gotten a lot of food, but she got some at least.

Attached Image:

Double Orange Couple? Doesn't Look Like It



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On the other hand, his behavior towards the Triple Red female is much different. Although he occasionally gives her a nudge on the side, it mostly looks like this:

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix



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As you can see, she is still at least his size, if not bigger. But, I assume he has made his choice (for now) and she doesn't seem to mind his flattering behavior too much, as can be seen in the next picture.

There was one occasion when it looked like he wanted to herd her into the pot, but I couldn't get a shot of it.

Attached Image:

Orange Red Mix II



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Check out pictures at bottom of last page

And, just because I find it a nice picture, here is the male chasing flake food into the flower pot.

Have fun,

That's it for now (dinner time),

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male in Pot



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He is threatening and attacking her, and she runs off, darn
Remember my "sworn emenies". You never know how these things will work out - you know they are now parents.

Anyway, the colours are lovely. Makes me want to run out & buy the orange ones too.

Cheers
TW
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Yeah, I remember Robyn, and that turned out well - so far

Actually, that behavior was the worst just after feeding, when fish in general claim their stake as they wish not to share any remaining food.

I actually fed some more, and this time I use SF Brime Shrimp and even my other female got her share for sure. And she was at mid-level, and the male did not make too much of a fuss.

Thanks,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 00:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I actually fed some more


I'm listening





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LF, quick, do a massive WC before he really gets mad!

Sounds like nice apisto behavior. Get one more female and you'll have yourself a nice colony!


Back in the saddle!
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Hey there

Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry. Nevertheless, it gets weekly 50% water changes while new fish are in there.

It will be all right, no algae will appear, I promise

Ok, so, maybe a little

Ingo

EDIT: NowherMan6 -


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Chill tetratech, it is a low tech, medium light QT, no need to worry


O.K. carry on...splash....splash....ahhhhhh

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Post InfoPosted 02-Aug-2006 01:07Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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hello ingo and gang,

it was me who posted a while ago about the film canisters for breeding apistos - and i can assure you they are inert. i am curently looking at my smallest tank, only thirty litres, with one pair of triple-red cacs and their 20 or so 5-day-old spawn...laid, fertilised, and hatched in a film canister.

in such a small aquarium i would know of any poisoning pretty quickly - but i've used the cannisters in a variety of contexts for over five years and never had toxin issues.

they are just so easy to position and hide, and are smooth, which the female seems to appreciate, and easy to clean in between spawnings. as i said previously, they are also small enough for the female to defend easily - a must if there are any potential egg-eaters in the tank.

anyhow, if you don't want to risk it, don't do it - but think of all the ornaments, plants, tubes and pieces of equipment in people's tanks already which are the same moulded plastic...

peace

justin
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Justin,

Thanks for the input. I believe that your observation of film canisters is assuring that they are proper for tank use.

Conceptually speaking though, just because plastic on aquarium equipment is not toxic doesn't mean that other forms of plastic would be the same. Plastic comes in many chemical combinations, and on top of it some plastic products are treated afterwards with chemicals, for example to avoid fungus growth and what not. I could imagine that it makes sense to treat film cannisters so that they produce less condensation (although I have no idea how this would be done).

Plus, given that you are sooooo far away from where I am, who knows if the plastic components and treatments of film canisters during production is the same in, I would assume, very different production plants.

As a smoker that I am , just take cigarettes from the same brand produced in different countries and continents. They are sooo different in taste and intensity (although they all kill).

Justin, no matter what, your input is always appreciated, so keep it coming

Ingo

EDIT: and oh, Justin - how do you like the Double-Oranges?


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Hey Justin

You are not so far away from me - are you in Sydney? So I'm more likely to have the same type of film cannisters as you. Mine come from Kodak film - would that be the same as you use? How do you make them sink. I find that they float. I have thought about using aquarium safe silicone & attaching a lead fishing weight to the underneath to keep them down. How do you manage it?

Sorry to hijack your log with this question Ingo, but I haven't seen Justin in my log, so don't know how else to ask you Justin. Pls forgive.

Cheers
TW
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Robyn,

Not only are you forgiven, I find the question very relevant for my log as well. If I ever should decide on using film canisters, it cannot harm to know how to handle them.

My guess would be to partially bury them.

Ingo


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Update on the Apistos:

Boy oh boy, he sure is a dominator. He basically takes position in the middle of the tank and confines the females one on each side. If they try to venture out then he is attacking them head first. He is in particular harsh on the younger female, the other one doesn't seem all that impressed by his attack but will eventually retreat to her tank side anyway. The Orange female, on the other hand, takes flight as soon as he comes close, and if she doesn't see him right away then an attack is unavoidable.

I also had to overfeed again, she was not able to get any food the first time around.

Should I be concerned?

Ingo


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Well I work in the plastics industry. Never thought I'd need it in a planted tank forum

Plastic won't leach anything into the water. Most plastic molded products use pretty much the same small group of plastic materials, there are just slight variations for color, pliability etc but it's basically the same small group of resins. Everywhere.

Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?

Co2 will corrode some plastic,mainly the very soft ones used for airline tubing and sucker pads, over time. Co2 is relatively acidic (hence the pH drop). But even this won't release anything harmful to fish, normal waterchanges more then take care of it.


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Post InfoPosted 03-Aug-2006 04:36Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Plastic is not usually treated for anything. For the example of the film canister possibly being treated for condensation - well what do you think the foil wrapper the film comes in is for ?
Well, I expanded the options of possibilities from the material to the treatment based on a recent reading in one of the fish magazines. There, a question on why someone's pond fish died was concluded with the fact that he used a pool cover as the pond base rather than a pond liner. And pool covers (made out of plastic) are treated to minimize the settlement of algae. So here is a case of treatment for plastic.

But in any way, Bensaf, your insight into the plastic industry is for sure helpful and another reason to finally drop the concern over film canisters

Ingo


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greetings,

re: floating canisters: i make rock formations around them, jam them under driftwood, whatever it takes and whatever you like the look of. i did have a couple which were each glued to a small rock, which kept it sunk, then just built and planted round them. i'll try and take a photo some time of my current set-up, and post a link.

tankwatcher, i'll jump over and have a look at your log now and have a chat with you there rather than hijack ingo's thread.

justin
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Chances are with the pool cover that it was used on a pool at one point and still had chemicals on it.

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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Should I be concerned?
I don't know, but I think you are a worrier, like me , so you probably will be concerned anyway. I can only offer the advice I was given. If things seem bad, remove the agressor temporarily (for a week or 2) & rearrange the hiding spots during the absence. Have dither fish in there, but I think you do anyway. They're in your QT with platys, right? Make sure you have lots of visual barriers in there. In my "problem" tank, fish can swim around the back section of the tank, without being seen by fish in the front section. The back section also contains at least 3 hiding places, as well as driftwood barriers & dense planting. The front section also has at least 3 hiding places. You need to have multiple hiding places spread out throughout the tank (Justin's film cannisters?) so a hassled fish can make an emergency gettaway, without having to go all the way back to their own alloted hiding space in their own alloted territory.

Hoped you wouldn't have this problem, as my cacs are very peaceful.

Anyway, hope this helps. Also, they may just sort this out themselves, once they have the status quo sorted out amongst them.

Cheers
TW
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jase101
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hi ingo,

i forgot to mention, your new cacs are GORGEOUS. mine bring me so much pleasure, and the first time you see yours with a little brood of bubs you'll be hooked on them. they are aggressive, but highly individual, and in my experience the females are usually the ones in control - but if need be, put the boy in a breeder trap (but keep him in the same tank so they can see him) for a few days so the females get a chance to eat freely and really explore territory. once they seem really comfy, reintroduce him. once she wants to breed he'll be the one running for cover! i love that a tiny yellow girl can have such power over a male three times her size - just goes to show the power of sex.

regards, justin
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Thanks Gang for the info (and compliment) on the Apistos

For right now, I will let them sort it out. As long as all 3 seem to get food I am not too worried.

Last night I came home really late and didn't even have a chance to check on the fish, when I left this morning it was still dark, work is going strong this week (yet again). This means that I neither know how they do nor did I feed them. But two prior days of overfeeding make me very comfortable that all should be good.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Update on the Apistos:

When I came home today I was seeing the QT for the first time in 2 days as I was at work so late and had to leave for work so early again that it was complete darness down in the basement while I was home.

When I approached the tank today, I only saw the male, strotting around the tank. None of the females were anywhere. I started looking around in the tank when after maybe 5 min the Triple-Red came out from underneath one of the pieces of driftwood where there is a small gap between wood and substrate. She was instantly attacked by the male, but not too bad overall as long as she stayed all the way at the left side of the tank.

I could not find the Orange female and took the glass top off to search, even with the help of a flashight. Nothing! I started to use my fingers to search through the plants, after all had been searched still nothing, not even a body. I knew that my next option would be to remove all hardware as she may be somewhere under some wood or something.

But before I went on to do that I decided to feed the tank, maybe she would come out if she "smells" the food. And sure enough, after about 3 minutes of feeding I saw her race through the tank, being chased by the male. He seems to really be mad at her all the time, he tolerates the other female to some degee but as soon as he even sees the orange one it is an all out chase until he loses sight.

What to do?

Ingo

EDIT: Now, maybe 15 min after feeding, both females have dissapeared again


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Post InfoPosted 04-Aug-2006 23:39Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds like it's time to get a breeder trap or something and put the male in time out.

Give the females a chance to strengthen up and stake some territory maybe?

Rick
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ingo, you sound like you're going through what I did with the apisto Bita's. I sometimes would not see the male for days at a time, as he was hiding out from the female. He didn't even come out for food, as he didn't like what was being offered. Net breeders were my form of time out for my aggressive female & I was lucky enough for the time out to work. I think my male bita will always have a skittish personality, but he no longer has to hide out & can openly swim the tank.

The hard part for a scaper is that the advice is to rearrange the tank during the time out. I fully sympathise with you on this - I know what you're going through. I totally thought I would be left with a fish death (aggression coupled with rejecting food). It took nearly a month, but it has worked out. I can only say to try temporary separation & during that time re-arrange & add heaps of hiding spaces (small pieces of driftwood, rocks, film cannisters - things they can swim into or underneath to hide. Make sure there are visual barriers. I have a couple of thin curved pieces of driftwood that are about 4inches high. They act as sort of fences that a fish can swim along the length of without being seen on the other side by another fish. I have two of these, running the length of the tank, but slightly offset from each other. From a scaper's point of view it might make things hard, 'cause for a while at least, 1st priority has to be give all fish a good chance to live in the tank without always feeling scared of harassment. The funny thing is though, in the end, this tank I have had to compromise arrangements & planting to suit the fish, is also the tank that I'm now the happiest with how the plant display looks.

Keep us posted.

Cheers
TW
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jase101
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ingo, get a breeder trap or a betta trap and seperate him. he wants to breed and the girls aren't ready for him. give them a couple of days to de-stress, put in some more hidey holes for them (film canisters, perchance? hehehe) and give them some time to eat and get a sense of territory. by seeing him they will probably get in the mood to mate, and then be a bit more on an 'even' playing field with him.

regards, justin
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Thanks for the advice, Rick, Robyn, and Justin

Today the tank is due for a water change anyway. If I am not mistaken then I have a breeder net available, I tend to buy things just in case and now would be one of the times when such a purchase could come in handy.

I don't have any film canisters handy, I haven't taken a conventional picture in over a year

I have one of Jeff Senske's woods still available, maybe I will add that and also rearrange the existing rock and wood formations.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 13:57Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
tetratech
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LF,

I know we have been talking alot about the cichlids, but how are the plants doing thus far, please notably the microsword. Do you see fresh runners, etc.

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Still life!!!!!



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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 14:55Profile AIM PM Edit Delete Report 
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Tetratech,

I promise that my weekly update will contain more on the tank in itself, sorry to bother you with fish stories

But quickly, the micro swords look pretty much the same than last week, I will have to take a closer look during the water change.

Wings - Boah, you are fast

On the Apisto Frontier (sorry again, tetratech), here is a look at the tank now, and Here Is A Link to the whole change process (also explains why there is not Breeder Net in the tank).

Ingo

Attached Image:

New Hiding Spot Tank



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Post InfoPosted 05-Aug-2006 16:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
jase101
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btw, ingo, i wouldn't be surprised if your triple-red female is a male in disguise....there's a lot of colour in them there fins!!! i thought so initially but didn't want to say, but now there seems to be territiory issues etc i just thought i'd add the possibility to the mix...

justin
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Boah Justin,

I know about submissive males in disguise, but that is a shocker

Please elaborate what makes you think so. I read that the est breeding stock of female Triple-Reds are the ones that have a lot of fin coloration themselves, as such I interpreted her as good stock.
Would that not mean that the Double-Orange would more likely start a fight with her/him rather than the other female? He is not leaving her/him alone, but he is not going after her/him as bad as he does towards the other.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 00:17Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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hi ingo - sorry to be the bearer of bad news - i just thought it may be a posibility. the females we get here in australia are never so colourful, so maybe she is just god stock. i also note that her first two 'spines' of the dorsal fin are quite short, so in fact she may wel be female. however, pointers against her are the absence of the tear stripe, and the amount of blue on her face, both of which i would be circumspect about. certainly if i saw her as a juvenile i would have my doubts. but anyway, only time will really tell.

regards,

justin
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Sorry Tetra, more cichlid talk.

I wondered about your female too, as she does not show the usual yellow body colour of a female triple red here. My female does have a small proportion of the corresponding male colours to her fins & tail, but her body is yellow, which matches in with my female bita as well. I am certainly no expert, but this is just what I have observed from mine & others I've seen for sale. I'm probably far from right and would think your LFS who sold her to you would be a far better judge & they think her a girl - she she probably is. I haven't read your "link" above yet, so I'll go do that now.

Cheers
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Justin and Robyn,

Let me first get to the usual task for this weekend, then I will show more pictures and share some thoughts about the cross-dressing fishies.

So, Weekly Tank Update - Week 8

Not too much has happened to the tank during this week, the focus was more on fish that are not even in the tank yet.

During the water change this weekend, I came to the recognition that this tank in its current design is not working to well.

The keyword is instability. The easiest to fix is the CO2 tubing, which came off twice this week alone, not too good for constant water conditions. Harder to fix will be the driftwood. All these individual branches are very lose and this makes it hard to vacuum around them. I wonder if I should tie them all together or how else I would be able to keep them more solid.

On top of it, I begin to see your point with the micro swords not being effective and the hills being not even identifyable as such

Anyway, here is the tank from this weekend, after the water change:

Attached Image:

Full Tank



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Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 11:43Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Other things of concern is that I have now identified two Anubias Nana that have melting rhizomes. Slowly but steadily the entire plants melt away, losing about 1 leaf per week.

The Barteri doesn't look all that healthy either, certain areas of the various rhizomes show brown spots, usually the first sign of melting.

As you can see, overall I am not too happy. Here is a shot form a short side, looking at the Nana group.

Attached Image:

Nana Nana



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Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 11:46Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The last directly tank related picture is a top down shot to show the micro swords from that angle (someone requested that shot a while back).

The out-of focus spots on the picture are duckweed, the dark area is a driftwood flat on the surface. This shot was taken from the backside of the tank.

Attached Image:

Micro Swords



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Post InfoPosted 06-Aug-2006 11:49Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Back to Apisto talk:

For the time being, I will still consider her female, too lazy to constantly type he/she and such.

Here is another shot of her, showing the tear stripe (thanks justing, I didn't know this marking has a specific name, makes lots of sense though), but also the blue facial markings. My female viejita (and she is a female for sure) has these markings as well, although much less):

Attached Image:

Female ?



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Here is a shot of the two females, as you may even be able to detect from the shot the triple red is the more aggressive one. Rarely does it come to a direct confrontation, but if it does then it is usually solved by flashing and the orange one swims away. Once or twice I witnessed a picking though.

Attached Image:

Females ?



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Maybe even the orange female is a male in hiding, I am not even sure about that anymore. She also does not display a yellow body and no tear stripe at all.

Here is another look at the triple red. The one thing I notice is that her pelvic fins are quite a bit shorter than the male's (the dead one).

Overall, her entire body shape is rather different from the one the oranges have, she is more stocky.

The stock, by the way, is most likely from Germany, the capital of Apisto breeding. At least that is where the LFS thinks they get them from (wholesaler would know).

Attached Image:

Female Or Male ?



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Here is the only one I can be sure about, this guy is a male. His behavior is all male, flashing and chasing and what not. His pelvic fins are also longer than the ones of the triple red.

That is it for now, let me know what you think about tank and fish,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Male !



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TW
 
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Whatever their sex, they are gorgeous & time will tell I guess. Eggs would be a nice way to settle it once & for all I agree you should call her a "she". That's what she was sold as, so that's more than likely what she is.

It seems that at least the aggression is enough under control for them to be swimming around the tank & pose for pictures. Mine are said to be German bred fish too.

I always enjoy looking & your tank & plants. I've had an anubias start dying on me & I think it was caused by me tying the fishing too tight & strangling the poor plant. No doubt that is not your problem, as you'd be able to see that.

Cheers
TW
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You will see me in rage if it should turn out that I got 1 or 2 males in disguise and paid $75 for the set.

Maybe the male Orange is so agressive towards the female Orange because he notices that she is a male as well

Anyway, thanks for the compliments Robyn,

Ingo


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tetratech
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Lf,
Nice shots. Looking at the female? triple-red and looking at the orange-flash male I don't see much difference in fin size between the two, but I am by far no expert.

Nice microsword shot, but you never answered my question are the plants growing? Do you see fresh runners and are they growing taller as well?

I've mentioned ths before, but I have a good idea for your hills. If you intent on using the microswords as a foreground you need to get those hills much higher. It can be done with just rock work, but to make you life easier and provide moore stability you can use women's stockings.

Cut a womens' stockings into pieces and fill each with eco, making a sort of bunker out of them. Put some rocks against, on top, below the bunker of eco-filled stockings and this will give you good height and it will look natural. It will also provide more depth for the branches to be more staple.

Then you could move the microsword around in the lower area created and you should be able to see your mounds.



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I have lost total faith on who of them may be a female. I will call the LFS on Monday and ask if they can be sure about the sexes they receive.

Great idea tetratech, I will have to think about how to restructure the tank. The raising of the hills crates a potential issue in overall height of the hardscape though, as I have only a total of 16" to work with. Guess I should have gotten the 50G instead.

The micro sword is still shedding original leaves in some parts of the tank, mostly where the light is limited (as expected). I see a few new sprouts creeping just off the plugs, but not too many.

Thanks for the compliments on the pics,

Ingo


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Females typically have a lot of the black coloration on their ventral fins, only one of the three has any, and it's slight enough that it could still be a male. Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male. The cac spikes at the anterior of the dorsal fin are usually a dead giveaway, but none of the pics have any of them extending their dorsal fins, so I can't tell. The posterior of the dorsal fin is always a place to look as females have a more rounded look, while males are elongated. Nobody is yellow yet either, which comes with maturity, so that's out I guess.

Tough case you got there LF. I think one might be a female(with the black on the ventral fins), the other "female" still might be given some time to mature.



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Ok,

I will make one more attempt here with pictures and other info, this is driving me nuts

First of all, thanks Matty for the very detailed explanation on sexing Apistos, very helpful (and I thought young Rams are hard to sex).

I found This Site and I would like to quote some of the text:

Here is a part about Apistogramma gibbiceps: Males possess lyrate caudal fins. I point this out because it speaks of males only.

Here is the part about Apistogramma cacatuoides: The cacatuoides-group species are characterized by their robust but slightly elongate bodies, enlarged lips, extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, and usually lyrate caudal fins. No mention of male or female is attached to this section.

Anyway, here are a few shots. First the dorsal fin of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

Dorsal Fin



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Here she is again, showing off her extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?

Attached Image:

All Fins



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Matty,

Explain this sentence of yours: "Females generally don't have a lyrate caudal fin, the only one of yours that doesn't is the male." I have no idea which one you talk are talking about.

Here is a last shot of the Triple-Red:

Attached Image:

What is it?



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Here is the proposed Double-Orange female. Even when she raises her fins she does not have extended anterior dorsal fin lappets, actually they are very short.

She is the smallest of the group.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female I



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Here is another shot, I am not sure if it helps with something, but I am desperate so I guess any clue helps. Even the Triple-Red is now displaying towards her when she gets too close, but, unlike with the male Double-Orange, the Triple-Red is not actively persuing her.

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female II



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And the last one of her, I believe it shows that she does not have a lyrate caudal fin.

I don't know

Attached Image:

Double-Orange Female III



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And just for comparison, the only one I am pretty sure about, the Male Double-Orange. He also does not have a lyrate caudal fin, but he sure has the extended anterior dorsal fin lappets.

I guess I will also post the male/female question in the Cichlid Forum, giving the question a larger exposure than us plant folks (ACIDRAIN is there once in a while).

The Confused Ingo

Attached Image:

Male Double-Orange



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Matty - you said that this would be a give away, so following your statement this would be a male, right?


Yeaaaah....my somewhat educated guess for the triple red - male. It has extended anterior and posterior dorsal, along with the lyrate caudal(tail). I get the information about the lyrate caudal fin from the Mergus Cichlid Atlas V. 1. This info is cacatuoides specific:
"On reaching maturity they[males] develop a distinctly lyrate caudal fin, whereas the caudal fin is round or, at most, slightly truncate in females."


Who knows what intense breeding has done to the species though.

The "female" orange flash could be an immature male. It has one node on the caudal fin showing the start of a lyrate tail. It also has very extended posterior dorsal fin. I would say time will tell on this one.



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Man,

That is all very confusing

Add to the mix that NowherMan6 had seen the "pair" of Triple-Red about a week before I bought them, and that he identified them as "playmates", at least they behaved as such.

Grrrrrr ....


Ingo


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tetratech
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Ingo,
Thought you might be interested in this if you haven't seen it. It's a thread on APC shows a few pics (not great)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fish-for-the-planted-aquarium/28948-my-apistogramma-cacatuoides-double-red-just.html?highlight=Apistos

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hi ingo,

i feel a bit bad for having started this whole thing, but remember, you are a caretaker for three beautiful little fish, and you can enjoy them regardless of gender. until there are definite signs such as the females yellowing up for breeding, or the absense of breeding, or them colouring up totally into males, there is really no way of knowing. i'm sure every memeber of fishprofiles has a weird gender-based fish story to tell. no fish shop should ever claim to sell 'pairs' of a fish which is as notoriously hard to sex as cacs, especially when they are juvies. subordinate male, alpha female, less colourful alpha male, wild-caught v line bred, it's all too tricky.

you take impeccable care of your tanks and there would appear to be no other reasons for them not to breed - so i think if the females are going to yellow up and start to court, they'll do it pretty soon. give them another week or so and if still no luck, then i think you might have gender issues.

*sigh* good luck, ingo.

justin
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NowherMan6
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Ingo, sorry to hear about the mess

I would ask over at cichlid-forum.com, they should be able to give you plenty of opinions.

I definetely saw them being intimate in the LFS. The male came over to the other one, the other, rolled over onto its side and he started to wrap his body around the other. This doesnt seem like aggressive behavior to me, seems more like mating, or suggestive of mating.


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Thanks guys,

Even looking at various links, the situation is not clear. I went to the LFS last night and talked to Tom, the head FW fish expert with whom I also arrange my Espei trade-ins. I asked him about the chances that the wholesaler got it all mixed up, and he confirms that this is theoretically a possibility. We bounced some thoughts of each other, like which fish to move to the 40G in order to see the other(s) show their true colors (genders), what to consider when trying to sex them, and what not. Overall we must have talked for at least 30 minutes, but neither him nor myself came to any solid conclusion.

So, here it the plan: I wait 4 weeks to see what happens

Ingo


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Loooong time no new entries, so

Weekly Tank Update - Week 9 AND 10

Having not been too wild lately in reporting on my tanks, partially because of work load and partially because of vacation issues, the last two weeks will be handled in one sitting.

The first thing I did to my tank about a week ago was to replace the CO2 tubing with a gray one from ADA. I also moved it way down on the side, this way the glass diffuser cannot slip downwards out of the tube. And what can I say, so far it holds.

The main topic of this week is the fact that my thread disintegrated faster than the anubias could grab hold on rocks and wood, I had to retie quite a few of them this weekend and more are probably to follow.

Overall, the impression I get when I look at my tank is:

BORING

I am neither happy with the plants, nor with the structure. The anubias still show signs of melting, but the micro sword starts to spread, the only good thing.

All Otos are still alive.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week - Week 9



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I am considering to order new plants this week, but I don't know quite what to do. I for sure would need way more anubias in order to make an impression with them on the right side, but should I simply replicate them on the left side as well?

I am wondering if I should add the micro sword to the 125 instead, I think it would look better there. On the other hand, that tank has gravel and the plants may not root that well, not to mention that that tank is in a bad shape right now. And if I remove them from this tank, what should go in their place?

Here is the tank now:

Attached Image:

Now



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The only other thing worthwhile mentioning is the ongoing male/female discussion on the Apistos that are slated for this tank. I have a thread in the cichlid forum where pretty much all agree that the Triple-Red is a male, and most are undecided on the "female" Double-Orange. She is being chased by the male Double-Orange whenever he sees her, so she spends most of the time in hiding. The other two swim in the open, with the Double-Orange male dominating most of the tank and making sure that the Triple-Red doesn't get too daring.

Last shot for this update, the maybe female Double-Orange:

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Double-Orange



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Hey LF

The fun with your tanks continues!

That does look awfully male-like. One would think if it was a female she'd have the black eye band by now, and would be yellowed up... but I guess only they know. Honestly, even if they are all males you could always move the V. pair from the 125 out and move these three into there. They'll find their own territories. You could even contact a breeder and buy a few females to throw into the mix with them. Just an idea...

As for the tank, I still like the hardscape and I know where you're going with it. Once the java fern grows in it'll be a different story, but for now that huge Anubias has to go, it just throws everything waaay off. You can replace it with nanas maybe, but for now you'll have to wait for the ferns to grow in in order for the scape to fill out.


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Thanks NowherMan6,

Can you imagine that I have 10 Nana's on the other hill right now? They are barely visible and don't make a large impact either. And at $5 a piece! I would need about 15 to 20 for the left side to make an impact there (given that 30% are melting on the initial 10).

Before I create a group of all male Apistos I will return the male (supposed) triple-red first and then purchase a female double-orange. If she then looks different than the supposed female above then it is good-bye to the latter as well (back to the LFS).

If I only would have known that I have all this trouble with the Cacs I would not have gotten even the first pair of them

Ingo


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That's rather disappointing that the LFS would sell not one but TWO pairs of male Cacs. You'd think they'd be able to tell with at least one of them...

As for the scape - wow, it looks nothing like 10 nanas over there. IMO - and just a suggestion here - you may be better able to utilize them if rather than sitting them all in the middle between the wood, you tied them on up along the length of the wood at its base. The wood is thin, you could probably just use black twist ties to do the job. Then fill in the gaps along the base with crypts. They're a different leaf shape and will grow taller than the grass. Bronze wendtii 'tropica' would be nice since it'll stay low and have a nice color contrast as well.

I made a little mark up below, just to shor what im talking about - tie the anubias where the red circles are to that the leaves are sticking out towards the glass and a little bit up, vary it, then use crypts by the blue cirlces. Just an idea

Attached Image:



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NowherMan6,

Good ideas, thanks a lot. These ideas would also be better incorporated if I could manage to get the inidividual branches to come out from a more focussed center on the individual hills. So far, my attempts to do so have all failed as the pieces themselves don't seem to cooperate to well with my twisted mind .

But yeah, these are 10 Nanas there. I recovered the picture from a few pages back that shows you the entire plant load that had been added. Note that each Nana does not contain more than maybe 5 leaves, some even less, and remember that I lost maybe 10 leaves so far to melting.

But you are right, the Barteri has to go, it was meant as a temp placeholder anyway until I figure out what to do with that side of the tank.

Ingo

Attached Image:

10 Nanas and Other Plants



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It is about 5:15AM and I am up since half past midnight. Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness, an event where the LFS is open from 11PM to 2AM. It sure is madness, as, when I arrived at about 1:20AM, I still had to wait over 20min in a line to even get into the store.

I didn't want to buy anything, for sure no new tank and no new fish. So, I ended up with a few nicely sized starter plants of Bolbitis heudelotii, or African Water Fern. I am planning on replacing the Barteri in the tank with this plant today.

Any advice would be appreciated before I get going around 11AM.

After coming back home at about 2:30AM I tried to go back to sleep, but I guess the coffee I had before I left showed its effect. It is going to be a tired day.

Ingo


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Today was the annual event at my LFS known as Midnight Madness,

Gee, I wouldn't mind going to starbucks and then midnight madness. They don't have that around me

I African fern looks nice and should be a good constrast with the microsword. Are you going to take some nana from the right group and use both nana and the african fern on both?

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I think what this tank needs is a better photographer. Try taking some pictures of the tank at some different angles. From slightly above(not top view, but that might be nice too), the side, anything to show off the fact that it is viewable 360* and is planted for that purpose. You gotta get one of those pics we can rotate any direction we want. I'm sure this tank is way better in person.

The only other thing I can think of is to break up the microswords with some interesting plant here and there.



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I think what this tank needs is a better photographer

Matty getting a little cocky after his perfect pearl shot.
Actually that's a good idea about the photos. A top down would be much more revealing.

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Hey now, I didn't say that photographer should be me . I sneak out a good pic with my dinky camera every now and then though. It's not like Ingo's photos are bad, they are pretty good, just straight on. I think tank shots from the front straight on are great for tanks scaped to be viewed straight on, but this tank is meant to be viewable 360* and should be considered when taking pics of it. I would want to show that depth if it were my tank anyways. I think it would make it less boring as Ingo put it.



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Yeah right Matty

Well, the recent shots of the tank on this page are in compliance with my weekly tank updates, all shot from the same angle to show differences in the tank without distortion of varying the position of the pictures. I will make sure that I will shoot some crazy angle pictures this weekend as well so Matty gets of my case .

Tetratech - Thanks for the heads up on the Bolbitis. I thought the same, the darker green should contrast nicely with the micro sword. For the time being, I will simply replace the Barteri with it, I don't have enough to split it between the two groups.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 11

The tank in itself has proven more stable than it used to be in the past ever since I added the more permanent plants. Only two additional Anubias leaves had shedded, I assume the disintegration of the rhizomes has stopped or is coming to an end.

The tank has seen some changes, as announced in an earlier post. First a small review of the tank over the last few weeks, and then a load of shots (on Matty's request ) from different angles and some details.

Here is the tank in week 4, the last weekend with the orginal growout plants in place:

Attached Image:

Week 4



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The we can fast forward to last weekend, the last week with the Mother Barteri in place. I always knew that this plant is only a placeholder, but it beat an empty spot any time:

Attached Image:

Last Weekend



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And here is the tank now this weekend. As announced, the Barteri is gone and some starter Bolbitis (African Water Fern) has been put in its place. This is most likely not the final positioning of this plant either, it will be more defined when additional plants are purchase (like more Nanas) and when I know what to do with the ground cover.

Attached Image:

Tank Now



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Here is a closer look at the Bolbitis group, from the main viewing side of the tank. I like the fact that it is of a darker green than the surrounding micro swords, it contrasts nicely.

Getting it onto the wood was not all that easy, I also tried to avoid tying it up to tightly as this may cause the roots to die off.

Attached Image:

Bolbitis



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Here is an even closer look at the Bolbitis. I like the shape of the leaves and if I had a choice then I would wish for it to stay like this, just fuller.

Quite a bit of Java Moss had been tangled up in the Bolitis, I hope I was able to remove it all as the last thing I want is some wild growing moss all over this tank.

Attached Image:

Closer



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And here is an even closer look at this plant.

One can see how the end pieces uncurl during the growth of the plant. Reminds me so much of emersed fern.

Does anyone know if this plant grows emersed as well?

Attached Image:

Closest



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Make sure to see the pictures on the bottom of the previous page

Here is a shot of the tank from the rear, taken in the classic Ingo-angle - straight on.

In this shot one can also see the bubble wand of CO2 rising from the repositioned diffuser on the left. Ever since the repositioning and the using of the ADA tubing I have no issues anymore with the hose coming off.

Attached Image:

Rear View



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And here is the tank from the same side, this time shot from a slight downwards angle but still trying to show most of the interior. It gives a little better view of the wood that creeps along the substrate and the rocks on the left island:

Attached Image:

Angled Back View



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And here is a shot from the main view, taken in a similar angle.

I don't really see much improvement from this angle vs. the straight on shot, except that one can see more depth of the micro sword and more of the Anubias group contained on the right hill.

Attached Image:

Angled Main View



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Going back to the rear view, here is a closeup of the Bolbitis group. If you look in front of that group you may notice some small crypts there. These are some plantlets from the Red Wendtii that I had in the 125G that had to go to make place for the Mother Barteri. I am not sure if they will grow in, but we will see.

Attached Image:

Also Crypts



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And here is another shot of the new Bolbitis group, taken from the left short side of the tank (in relationship to the main view).

From that angle, it looks pretty full.

Attached Image:

Left Side Shot



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The wood branches closest to the CO2 output show some reddish brown algae on them. This image, although un-altered, makes it appear worse than it really looks like when one is looking at the tank directly.

This algae comes from what again?

Attached Image:

Algae



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Another proof that the Anubias in this tank are settling in is that they begin to produce the first flowers (except for the ones they already had when I got them). Typically for all my new Anubias flowers in all tanks, they release a small stream of oxygen until they are open. No idea why

Attached Image:

New Anubias Flower



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Altough one would not notice from a full tank shot, the Blyxa is still there and doing fine. Growth is not very strong, but neither does it disintegrate.

Here are two of the 3 plants that I have in the tank. And yes, at some point they may be repositioned.

Attached Image:

Blyxa



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Here is now the last picture of plants in this tank, as requested a few times by tetratech.

The micro sword has settled to the point where rotting of individual leaves has stopped and the plants seriously start to spread via runners.

Here is a good example:

Attached Image:

Runners Running



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And here is the last shot for now, not even taken in this tank.

A nice shot of the male Double-Orange, although I have to say that his new growth on the fins is actually yellow and not orange. Maybe it will turn more orange over time.

Everything else with regards to my Apistos is still the same, I am most certain that all 3 are males

That is it for now,

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Apisto



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tetratech
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Well Matty, you asked for it

Like the fern I would much prefer to see the fern and the nana in each group (I know your ordering more).

The blyxa in my tank took a long-time to settle in. Before I saw any bushiness. Definitely as little shade as possible.

Thanks for the great microsword runner shot. That's good, sometimes that plant doesnt do anything. Did you lose any original leaves or did everything stay pretty much intact?

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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 15:22Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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I really like your new Bolbitis. The shape of the leaves are very interesting. I haven't seen anything like that around here.

Everything is looking good.

Your double orange looks really pretty too, the yellow & orange make him look especially colourful. What are your plans, if you now think them all males?



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 15:23Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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TW - His plans are obviously to come down to my lfs where we have a tank full of orange flash females for $9.

Seriously though, Ingo. You want me to ship one out? We have oxygen in our store. That you cover expenses is all I would ask.


Well Matty, you asked for it

Sure did and thank you for the better angles of your tank. The shots from above really do improve the amount of depth percieved on this end of the internet. I knew it was there, but only because I've seen a 40 breeder before. I'd still like one from the side and an odd angle containing two panes of glass, is you ever happen to get a chance. Honestly I like the tank from the rear the best. The driftwood is pushed back a bit more and the rocks help create some depth there that you do'nt get from the "front". I'm definitely going to have to try some of that blyxa, once I get to the grassy feild stage in my tank. I like that stuff.



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 16:00Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks you two for the input, here are the answers to your questions:

Micro Sword - I lost quite a bit of the initial load, that was to be expected as I had to bunch it into small plugs (ripped from a giant mat) to plant it. Some of the plantlings in these plugs may not have had rooting parts and as such died off, others may have been injured during the plugging.

Apisto Plans - First of all I am most convinced that I will return the male Triple-Red, maybe in a week or two. I may give the other Double-Orange a chance to color up some more, but he/she shows already signs of male finnage structure. Then I will try to have the LFS order me some female Double-Orange, 2 to be exact. Overall, this has been a frustrating experience and the first time the LFS (most likely) failed me twice in a row on a similar issue (selling me 2 pairs that are all male).

Ingo


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Wow Matty,

Didn't see your entry until after I posted mine.

I think that would be awesome, if you for sure would know that they are FEMALE DOUBLE-ORANGE (AKA ORANGE FLASH). So if you have them in the store, can you check if my "maybe" female double-orange looks anything like the ones you have?

Also, I will take more 2-pane shots especially for you , maybe tonight.

How would we go about the fish transfer, and when? I would be most certainly interested and of course pay all expenses.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 16:10Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Off the top of my head the subordinate males look like your maybe female. I know almost for certain we have them as orange flash, and looked as such to me when i saw them. The males with them either look like your definite male or maybe female. I'll go take a pic today, and if you like post it up here. If you like the pic, then I can run into the store tomorrow double bag with oxygen and send it out to you.

The only thing is that I'm unsure of the whole boxing thing, and how that's supposed to go. I know I'd obviously overnight it, but all our styros at the store are big. Being that it's summer and mild weather I could just jam a whole bunch of newspaper in an appropriate sized box. Any suggestions?



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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 16:20Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Please please please,

Take many pictures and post them here, preferably from a male, sub male, and loads of female shots.

My sub male/female shows all starter signs of being a male, elongated (albeit smaller than the other's) first rays of the dorsal fin, and elongated outer rays of the caudal fin.

About shipping: That was one of my biggest questions, the packaging. I never shipped or have received fish via mail in my whole life, so I have no idea. I for sure think that the more shock absorbtion is there the better it is, but that is all I know. I don't even know if one should mark the box with something like "Live Animals - Handle with Care".

Let's see the pictures and then we will know more. Maybe somebody else can join in and suggest a proper method.

Thanks again,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 27-Aug-2006 22:59Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Well we have what I think is a pretty good idea of a female cac orange flash, I got a couple people to concur with me:



Here's the most obvious male:



And a triple red female with male in background(I thought you still need one of these?):





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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 02:15Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by tetratech
Matty, that triple red cac female looks like my agassiz female. . If my female is a cac female someone's gonna have a long day tomorrow.

Attached Image:


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DeletedPosted 28-Aug-2006 02:31
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tetratech,

Female Apistos look a lot alike, even between species. There is not much difference between them, maybe the black line and the overall body shape vary mostly.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Are they of the same sex?

In any case, I am most certain that my Triple-Red is not a female, after seeing the picture from Matty. Matty, thousand thanks so far /:'

Attached Image:

Females?



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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 02:55Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
mattyboombatty
 
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I believe mine's younger and still has more female traits than yours. The dorsal fin is more blunt and less colorful, and the caudal is not lyrate(though not visible in the pic very well. Most importantly IMO, the ventral fins are black.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 04:14Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Most importantly, the ventral fins are black
I also tried to identify this particular marking in your picture, but wasn't quite sure if that was the case. But if you say so, and combined with all other signs, I completely agree with you and say that I in fact have 3 MALES swimming in my QT

I will try to have a talk with the LFS tonight, if my time permits.

So, what now?

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 11:18Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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EditedEdited by mattyboombatty
So, what now?


You let me know what(if) you want, and I'll send it to you. I'll dig up a thread on sending fish to see how to box it up.

EDIT: It sounds like any ol' box will do with some peanuts or styrofoam will do. In warm weather it seems it's unnecessary to use heater packs or actually use styrofoam as that's mostly for insulation. I'll use a box and probably wrap/pack with paper, double bag with oxygen if that's fine with you.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 14:37Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty,

That would be very nice of you, but can we hold off for one more day?

I would like to make a visit to the LFS tonight first to tell them my plan of action. Remember that these two pseudo females (one Triple-Red and one Double-Orange) cost me $50 to get, so I will have to secure the return policy first. Imagine that they, for whatever reason, insist on replacing them with females. Then I would have 4 and that is too much for a 40G with only two hills.

Thanks so much,

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 14:56Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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If we hold off a day it will have to wait until wednesday. I don't have any free time tomorrow until after 6:30. I definitely understand your concern, so we'll do it wednesday unless they want to give you another couple confused gender apistos.



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Post InfoPosted 28-Aug-2006 15:16Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Thanks Matty,

Wednesday should be fine with me, definately better than today.

Ingo


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OK,

So I was at the LFS last night and had a long chat with the main freshwater guy, Tom. The main good thing was tat they had a tank with 6 female Double-Reds right there where we were talking(custom order for one person), and as soon as I saw it I could point out all the differences to mine. And there are sooooo many differences, like all the fins and the yellowing body color and the black in the ventral fin.

I pretty much cleared up any doubt and concluded that I have all males. Overall, we concluded the following:

- I will return both sub-males on Wednesday and hold on to the Double-Orange super male
- I will receive a $50 store credit for them
- I will ask Matty to send 2 Orange Flash females to arrive on Thursday
- If they make then that is that
- If they don't make it then I will order (custom) 2 females from the LFS, which may take up to 4 weeks

Now - should I move the male out of the QT so that in case of an illness in the new arrivals (like Ich) he would not be affected? Would make sense, but he would be in the unfinished 40G that may require some wood removal for more planting and stuff.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 10:44Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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The apistos at our store looked pretty healthy and have been there a while, but I never tell anyone to risk it. I would put the male in the 40. Besides that the females are going to need some time to recover from the trip, and as I said, I do believe they are a bit younger than the male you have. It might be beneficial for them to have some time alone to beef up.



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Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 14:45Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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That sounds like a good reason to move the male, I think I will do that tonight. Then I can focus tomorrow on the removal of the two sub-males and on Thursday on the addition of the two females from you. I hope you were able to put a hold on them.

Let me know what information you need from me to close the transfer deal.

Thanks again,

Ingo

EDIT: I also ordered 15 additional Anubias Nana for the tank.


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Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 16:35Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Sounds good LF - told ya, harems are the way to go

Also interested to see what you do with the anubias


Back in the saddle!
Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 17:04Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Also interested to see what you do with the anubias
So am I, NowherMan6

I envision that I will plant them around the Bolbitis group, and maybe change the group on the right in that process as well.

Ingo


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Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 18:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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OK,

The event of fish-switching has started with the first leg, putting the male in the 40G. He was an easy catch in the QT as he is strotting around it like he owns that place (I guess he does). So forcing him into the open left front corner was a breeze, and from there it took 2 seconds until he was in the net.

Here he is now, still in the bag, on his at least one hour adjustment to the water params of the 40G:

Attached Image:

In the Bag



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Post InfoPosted 29-Aug-2006 23:38Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Gorgeous fish

><>
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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Ditto, gorgeous fish

Cheers
TW
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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks superlion, (EDIT: and Robyn, didn't see your entry til now)

Always appreciated when others like the same fishies than I do.

Here he is about 1 minute after the release, and about 10 seconds before going into hiding under the driftwood of the left hill. I knew that natural cave there will be good for something.

Attached Image:

Right After Release



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Post InfoPosted 30-Aug-2006 00:48Profile PM Edit Delete Report 
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Why is his body so dark in both pics. I understand stress, is he that dark or is it the pic.

My Scapes
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tetratech,

You may remember the black tear stripe that my male viejita has. He can turn that one on and off depending if he feels threatened or not. The Double-Orange has not really shown such a bar to me (the triple-red does), instead, his whole body turns dark when stressed or threatened.

Here he is exploring the filter intake (not pictured), a first contact situation, aka stress:

Attached Image:

Stressed



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And here he is in the open after adjusting a little, no threatening entity near by, just me .

That is pretty much his all-day-non-stress body color, I have not seen him change into a mating outfit as he has no females

Attached Image:

More Relaxed



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And here is one of the reasons why I will not have to worry about his food intake for the next few days, the last few weeks have seen a healthy growth in the snail population (see also the pic of him 3 shots back, there are snail eggs on the glass).

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Argh



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tetratech
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More Relaxed


O.K. where's "Totally Relaxed"

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nice pics. My naughty apistos don't seem to know they should eat snails. Wish they'd read up the facts, get on the programme & start munching.

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hmmm....yep, I think that one's a male Ingo .





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tetratech - I don't think I have ever seen him totally relaxed as he always had to be on guard to show the other 2 (males) who is the boss in the 20 QT. Maybe he will surprise me once he sees females.

Robyn - you don't see your Apistos performing stealth attacks to decoration and substrate, and then picking up invisible things? That's the snails. Mine would never eat a large one like the one in the picture above, but they will keep the small ones in check.

Matty - Gee thanks, let's just hope that your females don't look like him then

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NowherMan6
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$5 says Matty sends LF two more males just for a lark... any takers?




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I will drop them off at your house then, Rich

Matty would never do that, right ?



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You can drop them off at my house if you want! I like them!

Congrats on getting things figgured out with your fish and that the LFS hooked you up.

As for the Anubias. Nana is going to be much better than the normal sized but Pette (how ever you spell that) would be much cooler. The smaller the plants the larger the tank looks.

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LITTLE_FISH
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Wingsdlc,

About the LFS hooking me up: that was Matty and not the LFS, they only take back the supposed females and give me store credit (what should I buy then for that money, cories?)

Nanas:

You may not know (or remember) this, but I have 5 Nana Petite in my 125G, all the way in front of the Java Fern. I have them since a few months now and their size is still pretty small.

Here is some math:

- One can easily assume that at least 4 Petites are needed to fill the space occupied by one regular Nana, even when not fully grown yet.
- The hill on the right of my tank contains 10 Nanas at $5 each.
- To replace them with Petites, I would need 40 of them at $8 a piece (same retailer, not to mention that getting 40 at once would be a huge problem).
- That means that my total cost, just for that hill, went from $50 to $320

Honestly, as nice as they are, they are not worth that much money for me.

If you have a cheap and relaible source for them, let me know.

Ingo


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I under stand whats going on with the fish. I ment it was nice for them to take them back for credit. They could have said "Sorry!".

I see your point with the Anubias. Using the Petite would get just a little pricey. Nana will still be much better than the regular.

$50......

Corries would be pretty cool but you have to get neat ones.

What about a 4L jug of Flourish?


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
What about a 4L jug of Flourish?
What about one? I just got a 2L jug.

The wife just called and told me that the Anubias have already arrived and I have no time to plant them tonight. I guess I will have to float them for a few days (until the weekend).

Ingo


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OK well I sent Ingo two more males today...it was males you wanted right?

Well, for real I sent out the two most feminine looking apisto cac "orange flash" that I could get my hands on. Both were turning yellow, had a lot of black on thier ventral fins, had a bluntish dorsal fin, and their caudal fins were definitely not lyrate. The black eye markings were showing up as well. I didn't bring my camera, so I will let LF do the honors tomorrow.



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I am sure that your anubias will be fine floating for a few days. Didn't tetra have a bunch of it in a bucket in his garage for months?

Matt you are such a nice guy. I can't wait to see the fish you sent him!

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mattyboombatty
 
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Thanks wings. I can't wait to see them in his tank either. And as I told him over pm, if they make it and we see some breeding activity maybe even some eggs and fry it will be MORE than worth the little trouble(no trouble really, I had to stop in there anyways, and I had 3 hrs to kill between classes). Even if they just make it and live out healthy lives it will be worth it.



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Well Matty,

Although I expressed my thanks to you already in the PM, I would like to repeat them here. I find it very honerable that you ship to fish to a dude in NJ whom you have never met. And then you don't even want to get paid for it

Don't worry, just returning the 2 males joke

Anyway, I can't wait to get them tomorrow and hope they will be all right in transit.

Here is a short picture story of today's events. First off the Anubias order came in. They sent me one more, total of 16, maybe because 2 of them had only 3 leaves:

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16 Anubias



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LITTLE_FISH
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Next, I stuffed them in the tank and tried to position them around the wood pieces so they don't float up too close to the light:

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All in Tank



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Then it was time to catch the (fe)males for the return to the LFS. I thought it would be pretty hard to get them, in particular the very shy double-orange. But, after removing the light and the glass top from the tank it was almost a breeze and took me maybe one minute to catch them both, with the above mentioned one being one of the easiest fish I ever caught.

Here they are:

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Bagged Up



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A last close-up of the male Triple-Red, the first one to be re-classified as being male. As such, I guess he cannot be really called Triple-Red as there is no red in his fins what-so-ever.

Good bye, my friend

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Good Bye TR



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And here is the Double-Orange, probably looking his most male ever in any shots I have taken of him (assuming it was a her). This one took a while before showing clearer signs of manhood.

One day, he actually could be a very handsome Double-Orange.

Good buy, my friend

Attached Image:

Good Bye, DO



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Once I had them in the store, even Tom, the main freshwater guy, could see that they were male, and I got my store credit without any problems. I hope he will find them nice homes.

And here is the one that is awaiting the arrival of his two wives, although hey for sure will go into the QT for a while first.

Thanks, and now its time for bed,

Ingo

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Male DO, remaining in Tank



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Yeah, mine are much more feminine. I'm not sure if I should be bragging about that though. No doubt anymore what those two were. It can happen, I guess. It just kills me that 2 pair were that way.

LF, your bagging skillzzz are definitely lacking. Look how saggy those are. They look like a pair of 70 year old....well you get the idea. At least you bagged them with a proper amount of air. Most fish we get come in either tupperware, or a clozed ziplock full of water and no air.

And you are very welcome Ingo, I hate to see a fellow aquarium enthusiast in trouble





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I have to say that DO male looks particularly cranky to be kicked out of the tank & into the plastic bag .

The male that you've chosen to keep has particularly beautiful coloured fins. Good choice.

Looking forward to seeing the new arrivals.

Cheers
TW
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Matty,

Funny thing about the two pairs that I got with all of them being male: they came from 2 different wholesalers. Yeah, my bagging skills are lacking, mostly because I am too hesitant to give the bag a good twist and stuff when closing off the top. I never want to give the fish more inconvenience than needed, and given that the LFS is about 10 min away they had way more air than needed anyway.

Robyn,

Yeah, I have never seen the bagged DO spread its fins like that in the tank, probably because he would have provoked the other two quite a bit by doing so.
I don't think I even had to spend one second on deciding which one to keep, it was natural to me to keep the dominant one. I don't want to end up with a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage .

Ingo


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TW
 
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a male that might spend his days hiding in a film canister instead of showing off his finnage


Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.

Cheers
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Aggggh, that's exactly what my wimp is doing, hiding from his wife.
Gee - I wonder why I was writing this in the first place? Hm, maybe it had to do with the photo in your log

Ingo


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I knew exactly why you wrote that, as soon as I read it

Cheers
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8/31/2006 5:41:00 AM ARRIVAL SCAN PARSIPPANY, NJ US

Uh, I guess it will be at my house soon then
How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?

Ingo


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Have you taught your wife how to acclimatise. I am able to trust my daughter that she knows how to do this. She knows the drill - lights out, float the bag & then very, very gradual small additions of tank water to the bag over a period of at least an hour or more. Release the fish & leave the lights out to reduce stress while new fish settles.

Could you explain all this to your wife?

Cheers
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Male DO, remaining in Tank

Looks like he's saying "Where are the women, give me women, lots and lots of women"



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How long would you guys think the fish are good in the bag?


I can only judge by looking at them in the bag. If they look bad, it's a quick acclimation and a dump into the tank. Sometimes fish can last days and days in the bag. Sometimes much less. I was pretty careful with the bagging for your fish, with oxygen and what not, so I would think they'd be ok. They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).

To really answer your question, at work they double bagged a feeder goldfish in a bag like those in your pics and left it in the store to see how long it would last. It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.



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It was a little bet between the management. At two weeks the thing was still alive and let back into the tank, or maybe it was fed to an oscar or something.

Goldfish get no respect! Matty have you ever ad those bags that the o2 flows thru?

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They were guaranteed to arrive right about now(10:30am).
Grrrr, the wife is out right now, I hope they did not take the package back with them.

I will keep you posted.

Tetratech - yeah, I am sure the male will be happy once he gets his girls, in about 2 weeks or so.

Ingo


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No, we've never had those "breathable" bags. The regular old plastic jobbies seem to get the job done well enough for business I guess. The most important time to use it would be shipping, and we don't get much of a say in what bags we get the fish in. So I don't think the store would spend the extra money(unfortunately) to get the breathable bags for the people who are driving the fish to their house down the street. I would like to try some of those out though. Anybody else ever tried them out?



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OMG


THE RECEIVER WAS UNAVAILABLE TO SIGN ON THE 1ST DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE


I cannot believe they didn't simply leave the package at the house

Ingo


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I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.

Will the next delivery attempt be made today or tomorrow? Was it shipped Fedex? You may be able to get them to hold it for you at a FedEx location if you call them up, or you may be able to get them to contact the driver and have him/ her leave it at the door if another attempt will be made today.

If they're not going to try again until tomorrow, i would call them and have them re-route the box to your work office for tomorrow. That way you can at least check them out, make sure they're OK, open the bag if necessary and re-tie it with more air etc. I know those port authority bus rides are killer but it may be worth it for the fishies...


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Best bet would be to call them and see if you can get a hold of the package today. Either having it re dropped at your house or see if you can pick it up from the wearhouse.

One of my co-workers used to work for Fedex and he said it didn't matter what the package said on it, they were all treated with the same handling. You can guess how that is.

Best wishes!

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I called the UPS number and found out - from a machine - that the 2nd delivery attempt would be made tomorrow

I then talked to an operator and we concluded that he will call me back within an hour to let me know if they can attempt a second delivery today. If not, if - and when - I would be able to pick them up at a UPS Center, about at least 40min away from my house, given that it is not rush hour.

Not good,

Ingo


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH


The emotions are going down and up, that creates a tremendous stress on my, I am so hyped up.

UPS tried to call the driver but he was out at lunch so they left him a message. Shortly after that, our regular UPS guy shows up at our house with a delivery and, after talking to my wife, tells her that the fish are on the truck of his bosses van a few blocks away. He brought them in just before 3PM.

Now they are in the hands of the wife, who has never acclimated a fish in her life. I gave her instructions last night, and I guided her over the phone through the process of putting the bag into the tank, now she is on her own. But I have faith.

Oh - obvioulsy, both are still alive, that is all I know about their condition right now.

Ingo


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Thats great LF! I am very happy for you. I am sure your wife will take good care of them. I know I could trust my wife with such things too!

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Good to hear LF. I trust you didn't give her drip method instructions, did you?


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No, I told her to add one small measuring cup every 7 min, 5 times, and then another 5 times the double load.

That should do. The critical part will be her having to fish them out of the bag without smushing them or dropping them on the floor.

Ingo


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I believe the way it works is, on overnight deliveries, if it's not specified that the package should be left at the door they won't leave it.


I'm sorry about this Ingo, I thought it was the other way around, that I had to specify that a signature was necessary. At least that's the way it's worked with me before. I suppose I should've said that it was to be delivered by 10:30 too. I'm not very good at these things, but I hope they are doing well.



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Post InfoPosted 31-Aug-2006 21:28Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Matty no problem, you did your best and better than I would have done

Anyway:



I decided on a different acclimatization plan. Instead of doubling the dosage half way through I decided to have the wife add the single dosage until I came home. This way she didn't have to fish them out of the bag. That means that they have been acclimated for over 2 hours. Well I released them, and in addition I removed the only adult male platy from the tank (into the 29) as he is rather mean to new entries and Matty's Apistos are smaller than the ones that were in there before. Next I turned on the light.

Just a few minutes later they came out from hiding (but not for too long) and one can already see that one of them will be the female boss (larger). But, without a doubt, they are females (or very very good acting males ).

Later, they came back out and started to eat "substrate", or whatever invisible food they find in it.

Here is the boss-female

Attached Image:

Boss Female



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And here is a picture of the other female. Besides being a little smaller she also looks a little more beat up from the trip, but not so bad that I worry about her.

Now I have to make sure that they get good and enough food so they put on their party dress.

Attached Image:

Other Female



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Hey, those look familiar


*let's out sigh of relief* Glad they got there safe and sound. I think it's a good thing you put the male into the 40. He probably would have been a little too rough on the new girls, as I said they are a bit on the smaller side, but were good and healthy(when they left at least). The second smaller one looks to have gotten a bit skinny, and her caudal fins a bit beat up. I guess that's manageable though. The first female looks pretty good though. Hope it's all smooth sailing from here/:'



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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
Yay, Yipee, Yahoo for the safe arrival. They look sooo much more like females. I never thought your others did, right from the start. You really wonder how the breeders made such a mistake twice, when even a know nothing like me thinks they see a problem.

The girls may not put on their party dress until they are with the male. My triple red doesn't seem to have a breeding dress - she's just yellow all the time. But the troublesome twosome, I had them separated for a time when there was agression. During separation - no party dress at all. But within 30 mins of re-joining the male, there she was, dressed up to hilt.

Anyway, now you can relax and have fun.

Plus a big cheer for a first time acclimatisation by your wife. I knew she could do it. /:'

Cheers
TW
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tetratech
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LF,

Congrats! on the safe arrival of your new fish.
Listen, I'm not trying to stir up anything, but your tellimg me one of these fish is a female agassizi and the other a cac.

Attached Image:


My Scapes
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Well what can you say, most apisto females look very similar. Probably wouldn't be able to tell at all until they are adults, and even then it's pretty difficult. Agassizi females will have shorter dorsal fins and generally the only markings in casual dress is the eye stripe and a dot in the middle of the body. Cac females have a tiny bit of the dorsal spike in them and pretty much always have a full dark stripe across the body. Her caudal fin might be a bit flatter as well, because male cacs have a lyrate caudal fin, while agassizis have a lanceolate caudal fin.

I dunno if that helps at all.



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Thanks all for the input.

For the rest of last evening the fishies were busy finding food in the tank, in particular the younger one (but also the other oneZ) did not quite understand that the flakes that are raining down are food. Same happened to my previous Apistos when they were new in the tank, so I don't worry about it.

About the agassizi female: tetratech, I don't think that yours is a cac (but hey, I had 2 males for 4 weeks and thought they were females ). Your picture seems to match them closely, but this is only because your fish swims in an angle to the camera and as such appears shorter than she is. I believe to remember that she is more elongated than cacs. And I have seen female agassizi pictures where there is a full horizontal stripe and not only a black dot (I also think I have seen this in person in the LFS).

Ingo


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EditedEdited by jase101
hi ingo,
well, i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!! i felt like such a prat when i said they looked like males, but it turns out alright in the end! those two new fish both look like lovely little ladies to me! i'm sure you'll have little broods in no time at all once you reintroduce yr male. best of luck,

justin

ps - as regards the agassizi female above, i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi - but hell, the females all do look rather similar.
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i hate to say i told you so...hehehe!!
And right you were, thanks for bringing it up at that time as that was the trigger for the recent events.

On the Apisto frontier, not much new to report except that the smaller female did something I have not seen before in a fish. She was sitting on the substrate and wiggled her back half from side to side, not just the way back like they would do when maintaining position in a current. It looked like she is spreading out eggs, but that would be very unlikely. Otherwise, she is fine.

Here are both of them in a shot from last night:

Attached Image:

Females



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i've never seen a female cac's body stripe extend in front of the eye, whereas i'm pretty sure this is standard in the agassizi

Good catch jase. I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. It's amazing how they look similiar with the black on the front of the dorsal and then the orange, etc...

The look good LF

My Scapes
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Yeah,

Justin for sure seems to know his Apistos, he easily puts my sense for detail to shame

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 12

The tank has seen a few changes during the past week, mostly with the addition of the 16 new Anubias Nana. The initial plan was to make their position more permanent this weekend as I just stuck them in the tank during the week when they arrived, but a lack of time, motivation, and inspiration left me with them as they were before the water change. In order to make them more permanent a few other things in the tank would have to change as well, and I know that process would take me a few hours to complete.

The other change was the addition of the male Apisto so he is not molesting my new females that I received kindly from Matty.

Here is the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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And here is the tank now this weekend.

The additional changes I am talking about include probably both wood groups as I am still not too happy about how fragile these arrangements are. Basically, ever water change moves some branches around and I am constantly worried to smush one of the Otos underneath. Also, cleaning the glass is pretty hard as my hand touches the branches and they fall over or at least get pushed out of place.

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Tank Now



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The one plant that is rather a dissapointment in this tank is the Micro Sword. I think it would look better in my 125G if it would be able to spread in gravel substrate as well as it does in this tank (btw, not the fasted spreader, so far).

Here is a look at the center section of the tank. As you may see, the swords are rather untidy and don't do much to the look. I think I will start off with emptying out the most center part of it, all the way from front to back. This will at least help to promote the idea of hills a little more than the current setup does.

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Swords In Center



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On a positive note, my Anubias from the first installment are getting their first flowers that were completely grown in my tank (I had some before, but they were inherited from the grower).

Here is the stage a few days before opening:

Attached Image:

Nana Flower To Be



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Now a few pictures as a tribute to Matty and the very nice fishies he provided me with.

First off, the weaker female, although I begin to see that she is not too intimidated by the other one. Her caudal fin is still a little beaten up, but this has so far never been an issue for any of my fishies, most of them were a little "under the weather" when they arrived.

Attached Image:

Female Orange Flash



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And here is a shot of the other female, she has been in excellent shape when she arrived this week. I have rarely had a fish with so little damage to fins, no matter what species:

Attached Image:

Other Female



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Here is another look at her, given that I usually take most of my pictures when the full side of the fish is visible. She is a little more out in the open than the other one, but both of them are not constant hiders either:

Attached Image:

Female



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And here is probably the best shot I got of her so far, but hopefully I will have many more chances to get even better ones.

Now, having these fish at hand, I cannot believe that I have been unable to identify the other ones as males. It is so obvious now. Nevertheless, I hope my two males (pseudo females) will find nice homes.

Attached Image:

Good Posing



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
View pictures and comments on previous page as well, please.

Here is the last one of the female shots, I promise (at least for this session )

The interaction between the females is way more friendly than the one between the males was. Yes, they also try to clear the rankings, but on a much less aggressive scale. Mostly, a slap with the caudal fin can be seen, occasionally a little nudge with the mouth to the side. But more often than not the stronger one is following the weaker one at a slow pace, no chasing per se.

And one can also observe them swimming together once in a while, like here:

Attached Image:

2 Females



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Lastly, here is the man that awaits their arrival in this tank. He must be very lonely these days as the Otos don't really care about him and as he had spent the previous almost 4 weeks fending off the other two males in the QT.

He finally understood the feeding in this tank. He had a little problem aiming for the food on the surface with all the duck weed and the rather fast flow of the water. I turned down the filter output for the time being.

Attached Image:

Male



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LF,
That male looks like it's fins are on fire. Really a stunner.

It's funny in fish the male is usually the beauty and the female is well "eh"

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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
tetratech,

Yeah, I like him very much, and he is not even fully grown yet. He should grow at least one more inch. Thanks for the compliment.

And about the fish male being the beauty, well that is the same here, I am just unbelievably handsome

Ingo


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I noticed that the females at times both swim together & I hope that bodes well for a peaceful tank when all 3 are joined.

I have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.

Enjoy.

Cheers
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have not seem many male orange flashes, but of those I have, yours is the prettiest by far.
I haven't seen many of them either, honestly I didn't even know they exist until I went to the LFS to get a replacement for the dead male Triple-Red.

He looks in particular like being on fire in this shot because the fins are slightly out of focus, that makes them less detailed.

Ingo


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EditedEdited by TankWatcher
I haven't seen many, but none seem to have the two colour tones of yours. They all seem just a solid orange - which doesn't look as pretty as the two tone of yours.

Cheers
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I hear you Robin,

When I got this fish his fins were all orange as well. Now, I have no idea why they turned orange-yellow when they grew. It may be normal, it may have something to do with his diet, or maybe the lack of females is responsible.

Ingo


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That's interesting that it changed. Maybe all orange is for the younger males & as they mature they get the extra colour???

Cheers
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Yeah Robyn, that may be the case as well.

Here is again a shot of the fish from around August 1.

As you can see, all orange, no yellow on the outside

Attached Image:

All Orange



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Ok,

I don't have much time, I just thought that I share 2 pictures with you (and one in the 125G log).

I know you are all jealous of my Anubias flowers, so here is one more

With Air Bubble:

Attached Image:

Nana Flower



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And:

Who knows why Otos seem to like to hang out on or near the heater? Are they telling me it is too cold in my tank?

Here are 5 of my 6 Otos:

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:

Cold Otos



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Ooo I think that bubble pic is better than mine. The flower also gives that stand alone kind of look. Nice. Try not to cheap out on the electric bills LF. Keep your darn otos warm enough...turn the heater on. Those are nice healthy(fat) looking otos.



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Yeah Matty, I will try to keep them warm

I got really lucky (so far) with the Otos. I bought them when they were really young and just arrived at the LFS (maybe the day before). I risked a high mortality rate, but haven't lost one yet.

Thanks for the compliment on the Nana picture

News on the female Apistos: They seem to have settled into the QT by now as the larger female is beginning to chase the smaller one around more than before. Still not to the point of what the boss male did to the sub male.

Ingo


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Nice picture of your Otos. I think it is something they have picked up through the years of being in LFS's. Most places dont have the cover for them to hang out on in the storage tanks so the heater is pretty much it for them. They seem to do the same thing in my tank a lot too!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Wings,

That is actually an interesting point. Although I have never researched it, I was under the impression that Otos are all wild caught. Somehow I thought they were hard to breed in captivity.

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Everything that I have read at this point says that they are hard to breed outside the wild. I guess I ment to say more on the lines of after being kept in storage tanks for some time(whole salers to LFS) they have picked up on heaters being some of the only things to hang out on in the tank.

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[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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Well,

It is Friday, around 6:30 PM, and I am still at work and we just ordered dinner. This means we are going to be here for a while longer.

And - I will be back here tomorrow, so my weekly water change will have to be either late tomorrow or even on Sunday. I guess this eliminates any major change to this and the 125G tank for this weekend, there will be just not enough time .

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 13

The tank has received its water change one day later than usual as I was at work all day yesterday. As such I also could not do too much to the tank, the Anubias that I added two weeks ago are still only stuck in there.

All my tanks got some goodies this weekend (check them out please, as it seems I am the only one recently to add anything to my 20 and 29 log). This tank got a Rio 50 powerhead to perform the same task than it does in the 125G, namely shooting the CO2 after it leaves the diffuser throughout the tank. I have the filter running on a lower speed so I don't get too much current.

Here is the tank last weekend, for comparison:

Attached Image:

Week 12



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And here it is this weekend, after the powerhead addition. You can see it on the right hand side. Also, it seems that the loss of Anubias based on rhizome melting has stopped, I could not find one lose leave floating in the tank.

Attached Image:

This Weekend



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The only downside right now is that some of the older Anubias, added quite a few weeks back, have some dark brown spots on the leaves and the edges. I think I remember that is some form of BBA, and I hope that the better diffusion of CO2 will take care of it. This stuff is actually mostly on my glass and wood.

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Anubias



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The Narrow Leaf Java Fern is starting to show significant growth and is becoming an accent point in the tank (actually 3). I am thinking of adding more babies from my 125G to it, on the wood group at the left of the tank.

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Fern



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Now on to some fish pictures.

First in line is an Oto, one should not forget that I have 6 of them in there. I am very greatful that I haven't lost even one of these little buggers:

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Oto



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The Apisto Girls in the QT are doing fine, they have settled in there and the dominant female is clearly showing who is the boss of the two, although most of the time the other one doesn't seem to care about it.

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Don Female I



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Make sure to read the part of this weekly's update on the previous page

Robyn's bad experience makes me a little worried, but I think they look just lovely.

Here is another shot of the dominant female from a slight angle:

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Don Female II



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And here is the sub female, although not all that much sub like the fake female Double-Orange was.

She is a little smaller than the other one but eating nicely. Her caudal fin has also grown back and she is in good shape:

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Sub Female



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Last but not least,

The Boss

- I wonder when the females will be big enough to join him in the big tank? I guess I can add them in a week or two and hope that he doesn't torture them too much.

That's it,

Have fun,

Ingo

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Boss



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tetratech
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Well I've very jealous of the nice round bellies on the apisto females.

I must have missed something with the powerhead. Why do you feel you need a powerhead on a 3ft tank that has very good filtration even with the flow turned down. You actually have more gph on this tank then I have on my 72g, plus I'm running a UV on my return side. You also don't have alot of tall vertical growth to block flow

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mattyboombatty
 
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Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

And DANG those ladies look hot. Whoever picked them out sure know what they are doing

*pats self on back*



In reality, it's all about who's taking care of them. They must be happy with their new home.



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tetratech
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Maybe to diffuse the little CO2 bubbles around a bit more?

Well on a 3ft tank with an overpowered filter I really would be shocked if a powerhead is necessary. I really don't think it takes much current to push tiny co2 bubbles around.

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Everything, including your lovely ladies, looks beautiful

Cheers

Cheers
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Thanks for the compliment on the females, Matty - it sure seems like you picked a good team there

Powerhead and CO2 - yup, that is my setup in the 125 and the 40. In both cases, too much CO2 would bypass the spraybar from the diffuser and end up at the surface right away. By placing a small powerhead in the upstream of the diffuser I achieve two things:

- I redirect of the bubbles throughout the tank by blasting them sideways
- An additional hacking of larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. The very small ones that come out of the diffuser bypass the powerhead anyway as they rise so slowly that the tank current gets hold of them before they reach the powerhead.

Ingo


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Weekly Tank Update - Week 14

As already stated in my 125G Log, I had a hard and tiring week at work and will only write a quick update to my logs for now. Actually, I was so tired that I attended this tank today rather than the usual Saturday-Do-Them-All routine.

In short, fishies are doing well, even the two girls in the QT. There, the boss female is beginning to give the other one a hard time and chases her around a lot. But she also shows some sign of yellowing, even without a male around.

Given that I cannot wait too much longer to put them in this tank, I took some action today to make it a little better.

First, the tank last week:

Attached Image:

Last Week



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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Well, I dumped about half the Swords, not really my cup of tea these plants. With regards to runners, they were up to 8 inches long already. In short, I ripped out the right group of wood (removed one for good) and replanted that side and kept the middle open. Still, more work has to be done in the future, but the base structure will stay like this.

And here is the final product (for now):

Have fun,

Ingo

Attached Image:



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That looks soo much better (even though it was still nice before). Just opening up the middle is a big improvement.

Cheers
TW
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Wingsdlc
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LF,

Nice work. The open middle has created some depth that the tank was lacking before.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric
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NowherMan6
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Very nice, LF. i like this much better. Different leaf shapes interacting, some space to create depth. Very nice. It also seems like the NL ferns have grown in quite a bit more.


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I agree, how's the other side look?



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tetratech
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I agree, how's the other side look?

Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side. Looks good though

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Let's give the kid a break. He's only had time to scape one viewing side


Sheesh, my bad. Just wondering if he did the whole tank, or just one side. Just curious. LF, you don't have to post a pic or anything. I'm always thinking how this tank is a 360 viewable tank, so I always wonder how it looks from different angles.



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Hello Little Fish

the tank looks great. Am as ever jealous.

at the moment I have hair algae and brush algae I think its called. so its lights off and a new start.

I wish I could say something apart from "it looks nice" ! I just don't visit Fish profiles enough to keep up with the discussions.

nice to see it all though

GFGxx

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GFG,

So glad to see that you are peeking in once in a while , and don't worry, if you look at my 125G log then you will see that you are not the only one with algae worries. Actually, just look at the picture below to see some in this tank.

And the rest of you - yeah, give me a break

Actually, I had long enough of a break, back to talking about the tank. I am going to do some more minor changes this weekend and then I will show pictures from the other sides as well.

In the meantime, the bolbitis is not doing too well, maybe because it takes such a long time to sellte or something like that. Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant:

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Bolbitis Woes



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Also this weekend, I am planning on adding the females. I think they have been in the QT long enough now, over 3 weeks.

Here is the "smaller" one:

Attached Image:

Apisto



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And here is the larger one. She is almost indistinguishable from the other one, except for the black markings on her belly:

Attached Image:

Other Apisto



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Both are at best half the size of the male, btw. Do you think it is too early to add them?

Here they are together, this is how they usually interact. The boss chases the other one when they come too close to each other.

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Both Apistos



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NowherMan6
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That's some fine staghorn algae you got there LF. Turn up that CO2!

p.s. any Amanos in this tank?


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EditedEdited by LITTLE_FISH
Thanks NowherMan6

I don't know if the staghorn, and the onset of BBA on the same area, had anything to do with my CO2 being too low. Albeit I never measured anything in this tank ever, I would assume that my bubble disperser system is creating a high CO2 output in the tank. I will try sometime to capture the bubbles that are floating throughout the tank, in particular in the bolbitis area which sits right in the powerhead stream.

Oh, almost forgot, no - there are no Amanos in this tank. I am not certain how they would do with the Apistos, and also if they would eat potential Apisto eggs.

Ingo


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tetratech
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Here is a shot of the tips of it, not too pleasant

It's that damn Jersey Water .

Welcome back LF

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hi little fish -

the females are absolutely ready for the male - they're not going to get any bigger. mine weigh in at a hefty 3-4 cm's or so, while the males can be up to 9cms... but we all know who wears the pants in apisto world.

justin
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Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?

Justin - thanks for the thumbs up on the Apisto females. I will go ahead then this weekend and add them to the tank. That is going to be very interesting.

Ingo


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Tetratech - you know what? I begin to believe your water story. I mean, one can really call this tank fish understocked, with 6 smaller Otos and one Apisto. I feed ferts all the time, have high CO2, what else could it be?
.

Seems to me you did everything right. Good filter, eco-complete for extra biofiltration. low fish load. Two questions one more plausble than the other.

1. I know your probably sick of people asking this, but are you sure your co2 is way up?
2. I doubt this, but is anyone overfeeding the fishes while your away?

The only thing you did that I would have not done is when you pulled out all those weeds you did it in one shot. But I really doubt if your current algae problems are the result of that.



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Something that would put an end to the water theory. I bought mine from this guy. Pretty good quality, very good price...can't beat it for the money. Of course I realize how silly this would be for %50 water changes on the 125, but maybe work up to 50/50 RO/tap for the 40 and see how it goes. Or start up a small tank...say 10G high light and CO2 with all reconstituted RO water and see what happens.

I'm with tetratech though. I don't think it's in the tap water. It's always possible there's trace amounts of ammonia in the tap causing algae. Something that would fly under the radar. An RO unit would remove that. But, I dunno. I've been stumped on your tanks for quite some time.



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Post InfoPosted 23-Sep-2006 03:49Profile Homepage PM Edit Delete Report 
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Hi LF

I think you are fine to add the females. Mine were always less than half the size of the males, but could always hold their own.

Cheers
TW
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I was thinking about your algae problem,

My 12 G hex has two annubus (no I still haven't learnt how to spell that word!!!) and they have black algae stuff too, but only on their older leaves the new bits look very good.

any how I am going to add hornwort - not permently just a s afloating bunch to see if it soaks up the extra nutrients and kills off the algae.

I don't do half the things you guys do so this might be a really lame idea but I am going to try since its a)cheap and b) simple.

Another thing a read about was breaking up the lighting period, four hours on two off fours on. I will hunt up the link.

I still think the tank looks fab tho. Next weekend is the big change over for me. ugh.

Good Luck
GFG



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