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I have a Juwel vision 260 tank with 2 38w tubes and reflectors giving approx 2.6wpg, is it worth me upgrading to the hi-lite system giving 2 54w tubes with reflectors (approx 3.7wpg)?

would i notice any difference in plant of algae growth? i will be setting up the tank with a plant freindly substrate (eco complete or similar) but as of yet no co2.

any advice appreciated.

thanks

Generally speaking you don't want to go to 3.7wpg w/out co2. You will most likely see an increase in algae. The exception would be if your tank is very small (less than 5 US Gallons) or so.

My Scapes

You could add excel (Seachem) instead of CO2, it works very well and switch to 'Siesta' lighting to deny algae enough light time for successful photosynthesis.

by siesta lighting do you mean have the lights come on for a few hours at a time rather than on all day?

and would there really be any benefit to the higher wattage or is 2.5 plenty for most plants to do well?
when i look at plant profiles and requirements lighting is usually described as low medium and high but what light levels count as low medium and high?
also is watts per gallon usually calculated on us or uk gallons as it could make quite a difference on a large tank.

Hi,
First the categories of lighting.
Low demand plants are considered 1-2 wpg (watts per gallon)
Medium are between 2 and 3 wpg, and High are considered
3+ wpg.

Remember that Light is the engine that drives plant growth,
and Carbon is the fuel for that growth. If you are going
to "drive" your low and medium light plants with high light
then you must provide the carbon that is necessary along
with the light. You can provide the carbon with either
injected gas or with a liquid such as SeaChem's Excel.

As far as increasing your light and the amount of algae
you might get as a result is concerned, if you already
have algae in the amount that it is a problem, then yes,
you will have even more of it with the increased light.
You have to resolve the imbalance that is causing the algae
to thrive before you will be rid of the problem.

As for the calculations, so far, I've seen them only done
using the US Gallon.

The "Siesta" system is something that a few of our
members have come up with to combat what for them is
a very persistent algae problem.
In this method of lighting, they run the lights for a
few hours, and then shut them off for a few hours and then
turn them back on for a few hours. They claim it works
for them. Hopefully one of the practitioners of
this method will elaborate on what caused them to shift
to this and their results.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Excel is worthless with high light. You must have pressurzed co2.

My Scapes

Sorry, I have to disagree with tetratech as evidenced by my own results - I have 3.7 WPG and Excel works great. This is not to say that the addition of pressurized CO2 would give even more growth but it works.

Yes, I am a supporter of 'siesta' lighting to suppress algae growth. As already explained several times, this lighting schedule is based on plant physiology: algae which are lower on the evolutionary scale require large windows of time of uninterrupted exposure to sunlight to efficiently perform photosynthesis. Plants get by with less and are not harmed by interruption of the lighting cycle. How is it done? You turn on the lights in the morning for 4 to 5 hours and switch them off for 2 to 3 hours followed by another exposure to light.

It is not only successfully performed in my tanks but also by esteemed aquascapers and recommended by Dennerle (sorry, web site is in a foreign language). It was also highlighted by Abe Schwartz in a contribution in TFH in 2006.

I was actually embarrassed that I had entirely forgotten this detail I had learned in plant physiology (wisdom not from 'high school' but university education). Good thing that I am nowadays much more interested in this than I was as a student albeit for totally different reason.

Hope this helps

Now on to FRANK for a short description of the 'practitioner's experience'

I saw the start of nasty algae growth on back glass, filter intake as well as return, heater, plants, you name it after I switched from regular gravel to eco-complete in a rather unorthodox fashion. After reading about the success with this approach on European web sites (and the embarrassing resurfacing of long forgotten physiology lessons) I introduced 'siesta' and within 3 weeks the sheets of algae were disappearing to an extend that it left my algae crew hungry. I have now some moderate growth on driftwood and that's it (the algae munchers have to do with wafers).

It works for sure if you are not having another major source (excessive feeding, ingredients in substrate) of support that allow algae to bypass the lack of light

Thanks for the replies, you have given me a few good lines of thought to consider various options, i work in the brewing industry so bottled co2 is easy for me to get if i can scource a suitable regulator.

the algae i have problems with at the moment is green spot algae, possibly due to my nitrates being a little high at the moment as through one thing and another the tank has been neglected for a while but that is now being sorted with regular water changes as i want it back under control as a priority before i start doing anything else.

Sounds good, best of luck

So Catdancer let me get this straight. You running 3.7wpg with excel, but in your own thread you mention how you had algae all over the place until you did the "Siesta" So basically the excel wasn't working with the high light. You had to resort to turning your lights off midday for 2 to 3 hours. Although that might work for some, most don't want to turn their lights off the idea is to be able to see your tank. Turning your lights off midday, will also slow their grow and can lead to problems with certain plant species. So I guess what I'm trying is that high light and no co2 doesnt' work in the traditional sense. It works if you resort to some unnatural method that will thwart not only algae growth but anything green.

My Scapes

No, you did not and it is the fan of my lights that makes my plants grow and 'siesta' is entirely artificial as opposed to UV sterilizers ...

Once again: Siesta is based on plant physiology and not some method developed in a lab by scientists. In tropical regions you do not have the same amount of light throughout the day (shadows, etc without going into constellation of the planets). The 8 -12 hours of blazing light that is provided in the so-called hightech aquaria is nothing close to nature. In tropical regions the duration of sunlight is comparatively short compared to moderate regions that we call our home. One reasion why lettuce and plants which require very long periods of sunlight for propagation can not be cultivated there (w/o artificial lighting).
I am working, hence I am not at home during the day, the same is true for people with a job outside of the house who are in the majority. 'Siesta' works very well in this respect as you can enjoy the lit tank in the evening much longer.

Siesta is a natural way to control algae and still enjoy a lot of plant growth (supported by either Excel or CO2 if that's what the owner of the tank desires). Nevertheless, C02 is not essentialand can be substituted with supplements like Excel.

No, you did not and it is the fan of my lights that makes my plants grow and 'siesta' is entirely artificial as opposed to UV sterilizers ...

How did UV sterilizers come up? I thought we were discussing plant growth via lights and co2/excel. First off it's not natural for plants to have no light for 3 hours during the day. Does that happen in South America, Asia where most of the plants are from. Secondly most advanced aquarists don't running "blazing lights" all day they stagger their lighting systems for reduced intensity during the morning and have it peak during the afternoon to simulate the sun at it's peak then they reduce it in the evening again. Doesn't that sound more natural than turning off lights in the middle of the day. Search your feelings you know this to be true.

My Scapes

Tetratech is true in the sense that there are no long, random periods of complete darkness in the areas he mentioned, but honestly if it works for you then by all means go for it.

Hi,
I truly hope that folks are reading between the lines
and not word for word (unless this is a "local"
term/thing) when reading that it is the "fan of my
lights that makes plants grow."
The fan of my lights cools the compact fluorescents
that run hot.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Frank,

just administration of a little bit of sarcasm, that's all.

Striped: there is not complete darkness if you turn off the lights during the day unless you have your tank in a closet without sunlight penetrating ... and as already mentioned, this approach is used successfully used by others. Also, I do not understand why you mention 'random' here. The initial question was if upgrade of lighting from 2.6 WPG tp 3.7 WPG in the absence of C02 supplementation would result in plant growth (and algae). I am not the only FPler who very successfully grows plants with relative high levels of light with Excel instead of C02 supplementation.

Tetratech: I prefer thinking to feeling


Dear all, excuse me now, I have to apply green color to the dead but still growing plants in my tanks. cc

Catdancer you "skirted" around every issue I brought up. Why don't you post for all the members here all the high light tanks that scapers have entered into contests and whatnot using excel instead of co2. Good look finding any. What "cats" got your tongue.

My Scapes

The very little light penetrating the tank from otuside sources will do very little, as in the location my tank is in. I'm not saying your wrong and according to you (I think you have a tank log too, I forgot) your plants are in good condtion. Its just an uncommon method I guess and is questionable.

Mr tetratech (who requires UV sterilizer to get rid of algae ..).THAT's what I was referringto - I read iter people's logs.

I suggest READING to you and a little bit of contemplating - manners is hopeless, a nice reminder of the suggestive remarks that you made to another user named lioness... BTW, READING: where did I say that aquascapers are using Excel?

one of the users that successfully uses siesta is a young French aquarist who joined APC and shortly afterwards scored in the 80's of the esteemed aquascaping contest. One of the most beautiful Dutch tanks. No, I will not waste my time to look it up for you as well as everything else.

CLOSED



It is an entire waste of my time trying an intelligent conversation with someone this opinionated. Enjoy yourself

Stripedcichlid: Physiology is science and based on nature, it might be unusual to people that have little understanding of biochemistry but calling it questionable based on this lack of understanding is ... .

Yes, I do have a log ... apparently you did not find it worthwhile to consult it. My plants are in excellent condition and growing extremely well with Excel and 3.7 WPG (provided I paint them green and red, of course). BTW, why don't you check also countryfish's log? Lot's of plant growth, siesta and excel only.

In additon, may I suggest a text book about advanced Plant physiology? Unfortunately, there will be quite a bit of biochemistry in it but once you get into this you will learn a lot.