FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hi,
Well my advice is to take all the fish out of the tank
and place them in a large, clean, plastic container.
This will relieve them of the huge amount of stress
that removing the gravel, swirlling hands, hoses,
and falling rocks (gravel) would cause them.
They will be far less stressed with the move and back
than doing everything to the tank that needs to be done.

Set up the filter that is on the tank now, on the fish tub
and run it there while you work, when the tank is done,
put the filter back on the tank. Anyway you go, you are
going to cause the tank to recycle. Some might call it
a "mini cycle" but in either case new bacteria colonies
will have to be established.

Drain the tank, remove/replace all the gravel at once.
If you are not keeping real plants, or just a few, then
the gravel depth need not be more than an inch. Two inches
to three inches where the live plants will go.

Natural black gravel will be expensive, and the painted
black gravel will also be expensive. There is a product
that you might be tempted to use and it is "Black Blast."
Don't use it. It is a form of glass that is used in sand
blasting equipment. The sharp edges will cause no end to
problems with any bottom feeder eventually killing them
through cuts or loss of barbles, or infection.
True black sand and some gravels are actually volcanic
rock, and only found in a few parts of the world. It is
expensive, but beautiful.

In looking at the stock list, most of the fish "like" a
pH at, or near 8.0. I'm not too sure that the pleco and
rope fish will survive for long at that high a pH. The
way to get that high a pH, naturally (without chemicals)
is by using a gravel that is crushed coral, crushed
dolomite, or crushed limestone. I would consider one of
those instead of the black sand.

Any time we decide we don't like the "look" of our tanks
it becomes a chore that can take hours, set the fish aside
and save them from our stress.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Heya Frank! Thanks for the info, especially the warning about 'Black Blast'.

I have two new questions

1. So do I clean out all the gravel at once, if I am taking the fish out? I thought this was a big no-no? And if not, then won't it stress the fish to extremes if I am constantly moving them in and out of the tank whenever I gradually change the gravel?

2. I am looking for anything other than white gravel. I think that even natural-colored gravel would do better than white.

What about sand? I've already read up on it plenty, and I understand the processes that I'll have to go through in order to care for it. But is it at all cheaper than black gravel? I think I could handle white (or tan) sand, as long as it's not white gravel

I've looked around on the 'net for various prices but I can't find a steady estimate for either sand or black/dark gravel anywhere

Thanks again, Frank!

Hi,
You are welcome.
There seems to be a hesitancy on the part of most
fishkeepers, particularly the newer ones, to tear apart
a tank and start over. This is usually because it seems
as though they just worked their way through a tank
cycling, and don't want to go through the same thing over
again.

There is no way to do what you have scheduled, and not
recycle the tank. So, you might as well "roll up your
sleeves," pick a day, and devote a few hours to the task.

Having said that, you can make the recycling process much
easier, by moving the filter as I said, take a cup full of
the old gravel and set it aside in the holding water
with the fish. Scrape some of the first half inch of
gravel, and when you are done with the move, put the
cup of gravel in the tank. You can scatter it across
the surface of the tank (that might breakup the color
scheme of the new gravel) or hide it in the back out of
sight. This is called "seeding," and along with using
the filter,is a way to jump start the recycling process.

The new way is to use the new Bio(whatever) chemicals
that create the nitrogen cycle practically instantly.

Personally, I prefer the "natural" look for the tanks
bottom. However they do "make" gravel in all colors from
black to flourscent orange.

Sand is fine. It is inexpensive, and a trick you might
want to pick up is to go to stores such as Walmart, Target,
Home Depot, Lowes, etc., and purchase a "broken bag."
These are bags that either customers, or rough handling
have torn open and lost some of the sand. They simply tape
them shut and sell them for less than the origional price
as the quantity is less than stated on the bag by the
manufacturer.

Regardless of what gravel or sand you use, WASH IT, wash it,
and when you think it's clean, wash it again. If you
overdo the washing, your tank will be less cloudy when
filled the first time.

If you are using sand, it comes with some drawbacks:

It is easily stirred up into the water where it gets
drawn into the filters and will ruin a filter pump.

The dust is dangerous to breathe, so don't inhale it.

It has the tendency to pack tight over time reducing
any current flow through it, stunting plants, and creating
anerobic areas that can cause toxic waste buildup and
could kill the fish.

If you choose to use sand, it comes in various shades of
brown, to pure white. If you are using live plants use
enough sand for about 2 inches, and add several of the
MTS (Asian live bearering snails) to the tank along with
some of the Cori catfish. Together, they will keep the
sand loose and clean.
To determine how much sand/gravel to buy, use this site:
http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html
Simply type in the tanks dimensions, and the desired
depth of the substrate and hit &lt;enter&gt;.

Hope this helps...
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

*If you'd like to skip the rambling details and get to the actual point of this thread, please scroll down to the bold red asterisk [font color="#C00000"]*[/font]
[...]

I am, albeit lovingly, fed up with my tank. Not the fish! No no, they're angels. The tank, however, is driving me nuts.

We originally planned a Roman/Greek theme, with the columns and the white gravel. Well we got the white gravel, and we got the roman tank decor... and it looked horrible. So out went the Roman decor (this is all nearly a year ago, mind you), but the white gravel stayed.

Frankly, it looks horrible. I was pleased with it at first because we got a WONDERFUL deal at Home Depot for around 80lbs of gravel for less than $5 total . It was white/grey marble mix, I'm sure you have an idea of what I'm talking about.

Well, as expected, the gravel looks horrid and dirty, and my tank is just chaotic in the sense that there is no theme. I'm pulling my hair out every time I pass it now days.

This is what the tank looks like now:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/CrySanctuary/tank2.jpg

It's just..disorganized. The thing is though, that I am very blessed and it has a lot of potential.

[font color="#C00000"]**[/font]Now, here's what I want to do with it:

Blueprint: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/CrySanctuary/TankDraft.jpg
Computer Graphic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/CrySanctuary/rock.gif

I want it very simple, and very calm.

These are the key components of what I'm wanting to do:

-Replace white gravel with black gravel
-Take out all terra-cotta pots and plastic decor, leaving only the rock-caves and plants

It sounds simple enough, but here are my questions:

1.) How do I need to go about changing the gravel?

I am wondering if I can do it weekly or so... Say in fourths, maybe? Take 1/4 of the white gravel out, put one handful into a net and leave it inside the tank for the bacteria and replace the white gravel with 1/4 black gravel.

Wait another week, do the same thing; eventually ending up with four nets of the white gravel over a period of a month or so, keeping the old bacteria while giving the new gravel time to cycle itself.

Will this work?

2.) Where can I get inexpensive black gravel?

I found the white marble very easily and it was a very slim stroke of luck. But black gravel at Home Depot for $5 per 80 lbs? Highly doubtful.

Are there any internet sites I could order from that supply it very inexpensively, or any local stores that you'd recommend?

3.) What kind of affect with this have on the fish?

My fish are troopers, I will tell you that much. For informational reasons, I have:

Cichlids:
1. Electric Yellow
2. Afra White Tops
1. Colbalt Cichlid
1. Copadichromis borleyi
1. Blue Joannis
1. Electric Blue
Miscellenous:
1. Pleco
1. Bichir Rope Fish

They all get along very well as it is, and I've ocassionaly moved things around here-and-there, but I've never done a full gravel change.

What can I do to make it as easy on them as possible? Do I remove them at ALL during the changing?

*pants*

Sorry for the length of this folks, I just want to cover all bases

Thank you very much,

-C

Last edited by crystalsp at 24-Dec-2004 21:05

Last edited by crystalsp at 24-Dec-2004 21:09

You rock my world, Frank - thanks a ton.

That calculater is a great tool; and thanks for the go-ahead on the one-day-marathon of recycling.

I feel a lot more comfortable with going through with this now

I will most likely settle on the natural color gravel, if only for financial reasons.

I will update as soon as this all goes down, though it most likely won't be for another week or so

I would get the natural sand, if I were you. They sell it at Home Depot (or whatever hardware store) for about $3 for 50 lbs. It looks pretty nice too. I think I got the play sand, but I've heard pool filter sand works well too, since it is cleaner.

---

They shade the glow of it with their mossy-misty costumes,
They wear masks of silk, porcelain, brass, and silver,
So as not to mislead with their own, ordinary faces.

I am debating on Tahitian Moon Sand (http://www.aquatic-store.com/index.html?target=p_2232.html&amp;lang=en-us - it's 11.50 per 20lbs)... It's expensive but it seems beautiful.

I need to talk my mother into the whole sand idea first, anyways. Being 16 has it's downsides.

I am still debating on sand vs. gravel, and once I discuss it with my mother THEN we will decide which kind of substrate to use.

Look wise, I would love to have the Tahitian Moon Sand.
Financial wise, I would rather have white sand over any gravel, as it's a much smoother look.
Parental wise, I will probably wind up with the natural-colored gravel.

We'll see...we'll see.

Last edited by crystalsp at 25-Dec-2004 13:30

You could compromise and get the black gravel you were looking for . Most fish stores should sell it.

Truthfully, I think the tank looks fine the way it is, but if you do want a total rehaul, I'd go with fake bogwood and/or heavily colored rocks to compliment the black gravel. Green also mixes quite well with black, so plenty of anubias/java fern (bascially anything "inedible" would really make the tank stand out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/Kleevage/l.bmp

this is probably a bit more complicated than you wanted, but ime, you took off some of the plantage, i'd still look quite pretty.

Last edited by Cup_of_Lifenoodles at 25-Dec-2004 15:31

Hmm..

The problem with black gravel though is it's price It's just as bad as black sand!

I do think I have my mom convinced with the white sand though! I told her, "$3 for 50lbs of sand at Home Depot, mom. 3...bucks." And threw her the puppy-eyed look.

She said "get your brother to help you, and I'll leave the house."

I will definitely settle for white sand

So! A quick run down on the sand-adding process, because I'm paranoid:

-Get a contained, drain some of the current tank's water into it, place the current filter into it, and move the fish into it.
-Put one or two nylon-hoses full of the current gravel in with the container, and two more into the current tank for baterial reasons.
-Take out all the gravel, replace it with the sand (after MUCH washing) and let it settle down.
-Replace the fish, aswell as the water and filter, and cross my fingers.

And I'm all set?

Thank you all for your help!

Last edited by crystalsp at 25-Dec-2004 16:06

Last edited by crystalsp at 25-Dec-2004 16:07

Hi,
Just getting caught up on my reading, and I see this:

Quote
Put one or two nylon-hoses full of the current gravel in with the container, and two more into the current tank for baterial reasons.
End Quote

Where did that come from? I suggested you save a cup full
of the old stuff taken from the upper one half inch of
the current gravel (just scrape the cup across the surface
and fill it.)

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hey again Frank,

The nylon hoses come from care-sheets and other suggestions that have been thrown my way. I'll most likely sprinkle a cup or two of the top-layer on the bottom of the tank, but I also want to put it in the nylon hoses, just to be safe.

Hi,
The idea of the "cup of gravel" taken from the old tank,
is that it will contain some of the established bacteria
colonies, that will not exist in the new gravel, yet.
This seeding through the gravel and the use of the old
filter and filter material, will shorten the cycling time
of the new tank. The shortened cycle will also avoid some
of the stress the fish will undergo.

The bacteria colonies live in the first half inch or so
of the gravel. If you bury the gravel below the new
gravel, the bacteria colonies will be smothered and
die, beginning a different type of cycle you don't want.
If you sprinkle the old atop the new, in the back of the
tank, behind the plants or ornaments where it wont be seen
the seeding action will take place. Later on, give it
a couple of weeks, you can go back in and scrape the old
off and toss it. By then the new colonies will be well
on their way toward maturity in the whole tank and the
loss of the old gravel will make no difference.
Keeping it clustered in the toe of hose will also
kill of the bacteria in the center, unless, you force
water through the mass by placing it in the output of
your filter. It will work much, much better if you
just sprinkle lightly.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

If you go with sand (which I have, in both my tanks and pond) then make sure the run your fingers (or a net) through it once or twice every three or so months - it cuts down on the compactness of the sand and you don't loose the natural filter.

Thanks for the tips Frank and Sandy

We're going to get some river rocks this week and we'll boil/bake them, then we're going to go pick up some white sand at Home Depot

Can't wait to see the finished result..

Hey if you own a shop vac that is a sweet way to get all the gravel out of the tank, just make sure all the fish are out to

take a couple nylon socks and put some of the old gravel in them, tie them off. then change the gravel to what you want and after placing your plants and decorations put the little bags of gravel around the tank, hiding them behind plants, etc. they they will be easy to remove later on and still retain some of the old bacteria to seed the tank. or sprinkle some old gravel on top to seed the tank. Good luck, and please let us know how it works out.

ps, if the nylons won't work someone pls correct me