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Hello

My LFS got in a batch of quite small pandas about a month ago. I'm stocking my tank & pandas are on my list, but I wanted my tank to age a little more before I added them. So, after they'd been in LFS about 2 weeks already, I made a deal to purchase them, but leave them in LFS for another 2 weeks whilst I QT some other new fish. I liked this idea all round, as it meant I knew those pandas had been in the shop a couple of weeks already, they had time to get over their transportation to LFS before transportation to my QT & they had time to grow a little older.

In the meantime, one of the new fish in my QT brought a case of white spot & died. I'm now treating the whole tank & was told to continue treating for two weeks, to be sure I get rid of it all.

Now, I can't bring the pandas home until my QT is safe or them, but I don't know how much longer LFS will agree to mind my panda's for me. Think I'll offer a little food & board money to LFS, so it's not such a burden.

My question is, how long after treatment for white-spot has finished, should I wait before bringing my pandas home for their QT period of 2 weeks. Have I killed off my good bacteria with the meds. I've been treating the tank with Aqua Topia. The active ingredients are:- Malachite Green, Methylene Blue & Acriflavine. I've also been daily dosing Melafix & Pimafix.

Any advice on how long to wait after treatment is finished, so as to be safe for pandas, would be appreciated.

Cheers
TW

I'm not great with medications, but I'm fairly sure that unless yours contained any antibacterial agents then your biological filter will be fine. Parasite-killing medications shouldn't do anything to your tank's bacterial colonies.

As for how long you should wait, I'd just wait a few days to a week after full treatment. Once the directed treatment cycle is over with, do a few water changes to remove the meds and any pollutants from the water. Afterwards, your tank water should be decent enough to handle the new fish.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

A bit of a complication. LFS told me today, only 3 of my original pandas are still alive. All seem to have a type of wasting of the tail - sort of shrinking & disappearing. Supplier sent him 10 replacements, out of which 5 were dead on arrival & 2 died shortly after. So, in total he has 6 pandas for me (3 originals which show signs of fin disappearing) & 3 new ones, so far still healthy. Even though I've paid for 9, he's a genuine type LFS & is not transferring the cost of the dead pandas to me & says that he's glad it happened in his tank & not mine. I really wanted to have pandas in my tank, but should I give them a miss. We both suspect that they are under 16 weeks, which Calilasseia has says is a vulnerable age for them to be transported. Supplier is vague, saying the fish they supplied are anywhere between 3-6 months. LFS has tried all suppliers to get some pandas confirmed to be at least 5 or 6 months, but no supplier will do that. They are all saying they could be as young as 3 months (or 12 weeks). So, should I give the pandas a miss. Because I feel this LFS is honest & trying hard for me (who else would mind fish that I'd purchased) I'd like to stock my tanks with him - rather than try another LFS. Who else would tell me that he rang his customers (the ones where he had their details) who bought pandas from him to see if they had similar deaths, to be told that on average, for every surviving panda, one had died. Which other LFS would be so upfront & honest & tell me that. I don't want to repay that honesty by taking my business elsewhere. So, it's pandas from him, or no padas & a different type cory. Besides, probably all the LFS use the same suppliers & if he can't get me any that are confirmed as older, probably none of the other LFS can either.

If I buy these pandas, can I treat this fin disease. Are there meds that are safe for Pandas that could help? I hope that Calilasseia might read this post, as I know he is expert on Pandas.

Moderators, do you think this now belongs in the hospital forum, or should it stay here?

Cheers
TW

That's too bad. Honestly, I'd stay away from the fish with the tail rot. It is treatable, but I understand that it can be tricky, and I'm not the one to help you with something like that. It would be best if you avoid those fish, because the stress of another move could very well make things worse.
If the three new pandas are kept in a separate tank from the others and remain healthy, it should be okay to buy them in about a week or so. If they're in the same tank as the ones with the tail rot, definitely keep a careful eye on them and be sure that they stay in good shape. If that is the case, then I'd think it would be fine to get them after two or so weeks.

If they come down with any disease, though, it would be best to pass them by and go for another species. Chances are that the fish stores in your area get their fish from the same place, so you won't be able to order pandas from another store that you couldn't get at this one. It really is kind what this person is doing for you, the owner of my shop wouldn't give you treatment anywhere near as nice.

Your post is perfectly fine where it is. Hopefully you'll be able to work something out with these cories.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thanks sirbooks

He does have the 3 other pandas in a separate tank. He's trying what he can to make both lots of pandas survive. Whatever happens, if I only buy the 3 new ones, supposing they don't develop the same fin rot, I know they'll be lonely in a group of only 3

Thanks for the advice

Cheers
TW

Hello there ... got your PM by the way.

First of all, once the White Spot has been eradicated, a large water change and gravel vac of the quarantine aquarium should be sufficient. If you have a canister filter or a HOB filter running on the QT, you could also try subjecting the water to activated carbon filtration once the treatment regime is completed. Do NOT, however, use activated carbon WHILE treating your fishes, as this will remove the medication! Using activated carbon as a 'belt and braces' remover of surplus medication is, however, prefectly legitimate once treatment has finished.

Now to the Pandas.

First of all, does your LFS know how old the Pandas are? One of the BIG complaints I have with some wholesalers is that they ship Pandas for sale at too early an age. Juvenile Pandas should be a minimum of 16 weeks old before shipping, as they're likely to be traumatised by the sudden transfer to a whole new batch of water before that time. Ideally, Pandas should not be shipped until they're 20 weeks old, which is why my latest batch of juveniles, that hatched out in January, won't be seeing a dealer aquarium until the end of May at the very earliest. The survival rates of juvenile Pandas climbls steeply as you move from 16 weeks old to 20 weeks old, so that at 20 weeks and beyond, survival rates are practically 100% if acclimatised with some care.

Why have I dwelt on this issue YET AGAIN? Simple. It oculd be impacting on your dealer's stock.

Additionally, having had tail rot strike my adult Pandas (and in my case a variant that was resistant to my usual choice of medication, namely Myxazin), I can tell you now that treating tail rot in Pandas is a fun affair. Mine responded very well to Melafix once I discovered that the strain of bacteria causing their tail rot was Myxazin-resistant, and Melafix should work well on any Pandas you have that are stricken with it in future. Psss this information on to your LFS, and advise that the following steps should be taken:

[1] The Pandas should be kept at NO HIGHER a temperature than 24°C during treatment;

[2] Pandas will stand a full dose of Melafix as per directions, and do not need a half dose;

[3] Pandas will convalesce MUCH MORE QUICKLY if given live foods and a variety of flakes than if they're given a monotonous diet.

If your LFS treats the Pandas in accordance with the above, the tail rot should be halted, and they can start regrowing their tails. This takes time, but generally, even a severe case will have a near-normal tail in about 3-4 weeks. Then, if your LFS does this, you can take home a bigger group of Pandas (which in turn should make your LFS happy as well as you and the Pandas!).

Now, when you transfer your prospective Pandas to the quarantine aquarium, be extra careful with acclimatisation, and this will pay dividends later. Also, if you can get hold of live Bloodworm (though frozen will do), and feed this to them after acclimatisation, this will help them adjust to their new home considerably. You would be amazed at how much more robust and able to withstand knocks fishes become when they're given live foods on a regular basis!

Monitor your Pandas fairly closely while in the QT, and since they'll still be juveniles, feed small amounts of food often - it's not overdoing it to feed them 5 times per day! But make sure that you feed small amounts each time - enough for them to chomp it all in about 2-3 minutes. If you can intersperse live foods with the flakes, and also toss in a few small broken pieces of Hikari wafer, this will condition them beautifully,

After 2 weeks, if your Pandas are fine in the QT, they should be ready for their permanent home. And ready to rock and roll for you!



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thanks Calilasseia

I knew that you'd be able to tell me the best thing for the pandas.

So, it sounds like you still think it's a goer that I buy the pandas with the fin rot? PS, it's like their tails are slowly disappearing, rather than looking like a jaggered edge.

LFS can't get supplier to confirm age, only that they're between 3 - 6 months. As you told me they are fragile under 20 weeks, we suspect they are closer to the 12 week age and that's why LFS is having the trouble. I'll buy an extra bottle of melafix and ask LFS to use that to treat the pandas & buy some bloodworms for him to feed them. He has some live food in his store, but I don't know if it's blood worms or not.

If they all make it, that will still only give me 6 & I don't know if he's prepared to bring more pandas in to build it up to the 9, I originally wanted.

I'll print out your advice (if that's ok with you) & bring it to him & ask that he follows the treatment for me. Hopefully he will, because that means he still get the sale if they recover.

I'll let you know how the pandas do. They are fairly inactive, but that might be because he has 3 in one tank (the 3 with fin rot) and 3 in another tank.

Tell me, down the track if all goes well & I bring these Pandas home, I'm thinking of planting some sort of ground cover plant in the front of the tank, to be like a grass carpet. Will that be OK for the pandas, instead of having gravel there for them to rummage through. Can they rummage in the grass coverage. If that's no good for the pandas, I either won't do it, or make sure it's restricted to a small part of the tank.

Cheers
TW

Item one. If you're opting for a quarantine aquarium without a substrate (because you believe management is easier), then I'd recommend getting some Java Moss. I'd also see if you can get a sprig of Hornwort to add to the aquarium as part of your nitrate management programme (it will also absorb ammonia to a certain extent) and also furnish the aquarium with some hiding places for your new Pandas once they arrive.

If you want to take the risk of taking home the ones with the tail rot, load up on Melafix beforehand. I'd also load up on other anti fin rot meds just to make sure - you may be lucky and have a strain that's susceptible to other meds. The reason I got Melafix was because my Pandas were struck by a tail rot strain that was impervious to Myxazin, which is my usual medication of choice.

Feed them with a good variety of foods during the quarantine and medicate them. I've discovered that Pandas will withstand the full dosage of Melafix - they don't need a half dosage. Food wise, during the quarantine phase, feed as wide a variety of flakes as you can, along with freeze dried tubifex (weight it down with a lead weight so they can get to it), Hikari wafers, and if you can get some from a source with a good provenance, live food. Brine Shrimp will be your best bet at this stage as the Pandas are small.

If some of them are only 12 weeks old, it'll be touch and go even with careful acclimatisation, but it can be done. Be advised that if they ARE that young, it'll be quite a challenge to nurse them through both quarantine and medication for tail rot. Prepare yourself for a fairly horrific attrition rate, and pat yourself on the back if you pull them all through it.

If you can get live Brine Shrimp for them, that would be the best live food to choose at this stage - set up a hatchery for baby Brine Shrimp if you can, and feed them in between the flakes and other goodies. If they look as if they're growing nicely while in the QT, you can consider migrating them to live Daphnia and even live Bloodworm if available - if there's one thing that makes Pandas smile visibly, it's live Bloodworm. Mine go NUTS for it. Plus, I've noticed that live foods speed up the convalescence period of sick fishes noticeably.

I'll be somwehat brutally honest at this stage - taking on Pandas at just 12 weeks, and sick ones into the bargain, is fraught with complications. Be prepared for it to be a rough ride, and a steep learning curve.

Water changes - at such a tender age, make your water changes 'trickle' affairs until they look as if they're adjusting nicely. Then you can start gradually accustoming them to more conventional water changes. Basically, you're setting up an intensive care ward for these little guys, and you'll need to be pretty 'hands on' when it comes to a number of issues such as water quality. Make sure your filter is a decent one!

Oh, you'll know pretty soon if you're going to have success or not. At that age, chances are any that are going to die off on you will do so quickly. Get them past the first week and chances are they'll make it. The first 7 days will be the critical period in this operation. Nurse them through that, and cure the tail rot on the affected fishes, and you'll eventually have a nice batch of Pandas. Hard work, but SO worth the effort if you pull them through and end up with a frolicking shoal like mine!



Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Thanks Calilasseia

The QT tank will have gravel & all is ready & waiting for the pandas. The question about whether I should plant some grass type cover on the gravel (eg glosso) was for the community tank (not the QT ), which will be the panda's long term home if all goes well.

I'm not sure if the pandas will like glosso cover or if it's importantant just to have bare gravel for them. Do you know if it matters to them? All in all, it is a fairly heavily planted tank anyway. Already has java moss. But I guess, I'm jumping ahead - they are yet to come home.

I wish we knew the age, but we are guessing they are young due to the problem & vagueness of supplier. Gave your advice to LFS & gave him some Melafix. Offered him some of the other tail rot med you mentioned, as I have that too, but he declined & just took the Melafix. I have heaps of both at home. I'll be visiting them on the weekend to see how they are doing.

Thanks again.

Cheers
TW

Update on Pandas at LFS. Still not going well. I visited them today & LFS said he received 10 more yesterday & half have died already. They were slightly bigger pandas than previous batch. It seems that something might just not be right with the current available stock of Pandas in Sydney at the moment. LFS continuing with treatment for the survivors, but these pandas personality seem so very far from what I'd read they should be. Very lethargic - just sit on the bottom & barely move. Very sad. The other corys in LFS tanks bounce around, but not these poor little pandas.

Cheers
TW

That really doesn't sound good. Well, unless you're prepared for a possible long wait, I think it would be best to choose another type of Corydoras. You don't want to run the risk of getting sick, unhappy fish, and it sounds like they have other cories which are in much better shape. Sorry to hear about the bad luck!

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Thinking that way too Sirbooks, though I don't like to give up & so far, it is LFS who stands to lose, as he hasn't transfered the loss to me. Although he holds my cash, I can use it on another fish if I choose. Thinking of getting Sterbai instead, as they are nice, active & only a little bigger than the pandas when fully grown. If LFS actually gets the pandas well, I will take them though. On Monday I'll start a 2 week QT on some other fish from him. At the end of that QT period, we'll probably know what's happening with the pandas. Until then, its a waiting game. Still hoping they come good.

Cheers
TW

If you decide for sure to go with another species, I'll heartily recommend the Sterba's cories. Though they'll reach larger sizes than the pandas (six-seven cm, depending on who you ask), they are beautiful, hardier, and still fairly easy to breed. The one complaint I have with the species is the often-high price tag, but that only comes into play once. Corydoras sterbai is a pretty cool fish.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

Hi Sirbooks

At the moment, it's looking likely that 4 of LFS pandas are going to make it. Even though these 4 seem to be survivors, they aren't living up to what I'd expected. They are inactive & not playful - maybe because they are only 4. LFS's going to order another 10, take them to a tank in his own home & try to see if the survival rate is any better. In the meantime, I brought 3 sterbai (yes they are pricey). They were the only 3 he had. Thought they might be lonely, being only 3, but they are delight to watch. So active, bouncing around everywhere - so playful. Currently my favourite fish. The seem very happy, even though only 3. If only end up with 4 pandas, I'll build the sterbai stock up - but if I can get 6 pandas, then with 3 sterbai, my tank will be stocked. Will 3 sterbai be ok - as I say, they seem happy?

Continue to play a waiting game on the pandas.

Cheers
TW

Three would be okay, but I'd certainly encourage buying more if the pandas fall through. They're great looking fish, and can be quite fun to keep.

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And when he gets to Heaven, to Saint Peter he will tell: "One more Marine reporting, Sir! I've served my time in Hell."

They are inactive & not playful - maybe because they are only 4

That is probably it. I have 6 pandas in my 29g and they are not as active as I thought they would be. I catch them swimming around every now and then, but they usually run for cover when I come close to the tank. I have been looking for more for about 2 months and can't find any. I would like to have 10. Hopefully that would help their shyness.

Good luck!

*Kristin*

Hi GirlieGirl & Sirbooks, unfortunately, it is looking like the pandas will fall through. Even though LFS has a couple of survivors, they still don't seem to me that they are right. They just don't move & just sit on the bottom of the tank, poor little things. It might be the fact that they are only in small numbers, but I'm just too scared to bring them home, when they have been dying so regularly at the LFS. Unless drastic improvement (eg LFS has a large group of 8-10 survivors who actually swim around, it will be all sterbais for me.

Which is good & bad - I'd wanted pandas ever since I first read up on them. But, my 3 sterbai - I just love them & their antics. They're my favourite fish in the tank.

Cheers
TW

Thank you to everyone who gave me suggestions for these pandas, especially Sirbooks & Calilasseia, but it just wasn't to be. LFS couldn't get them to stablise & survive and his supplier tells him, that at the moment, the problem of panda non-survival is common in Sydney. So, I've settled for the sterbai instead.

Cheers
TW

Pity you're 12,000 miles away ... I've got a nice batch of juveniles that will be ready for the pet shop in about 4 weeks' time!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Yes that is a pity. Thanks for your advice while we tried to nurse these pandas to health.

Cheers
TW