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Hello folks

I currently have 5 laetacara dorsigeras, 2 beckfords pencilfish and a bn pleco in my 40g plant tank. I will be upgrading to a 75g tank very shortly. It's in Have the tank already in postion just need to set up.

Once it's established, I'd really like to add 2-4 red/blue turquoise discus, and a couple silver zebra angelfish. They would all be domestic-bread. More interested in keeping then breeding.

Do you think they would get along ? I'd introduce the discus first and let them settle before adding the others. Also the discus will be at least 3/4 size, the angels will be small.

The Amazon Nut...

Hey DaMossMan,

I kept Discus and Angelfish quite happily together in my 75G. Do as you suggested and let the discus become established first before adding the angels. In my 75G the angelfish even turned out to be a mating pair and they did not harass the discus unless they got close to their eggs.. Just keep it nicely planted with some nice large pieces of driftwood and all will be happy.

Here is a pic of the angels breeding with the discus sneaking in to the pic

I hope that Helps,

Megil

Hi,
Several years ago all of the publications would tell you
not to keep the two species together. The reason was not
that they might not get along, but rather that they would
pass intestinal parasites and diseases between them making
it nearly impossible to be successful.

I've not kept track of this for quite a while now simply
because my tank is too small for that adventure.

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hello Megil and Frank, it's good to see you both still here How are you doing ?

Megil, your angels look alot like the silver zebras I used to have. Mine had red eyes, that's the type I'll be trying to hunt down as I really miss those fish. Do you have more pics avail of your setup ? If so I'd love to see them. Looks nice from what I can see

Frank, I have read that also, and was also mentioned ph differences, the disease concern pertained to wild fish, or mixing wild with domestic bread. Purists still debating the issue. I'm looking for hardy, domestic bred stock, born and raised in similar ph, born and raised in the local tapwater. Should I quarantine and treat with metronidazole as the discus breeders do with any new stock, as a precaution ? (have metro on hand as well as 2 15g tanks for quarantine if need be) I'm not in a rush, I'd like to do this right. If I can pull this off, it's my dream setup. You're right, an adventure it would be

I can't go the RO route but I'm planning to add an initial peat layer under the substrate, also some high-grade peat pellets in the filters. My tap water is about 7.5, with the peat and driftwood I hope to pull the ph down to about 6.5, the gh and kh will be pulled down some too, which should be more ideal for the plants. No CO2, but will be using occasional doses of flourish excel. My plants are low requirement.

Driftwood and plants are definately the plan
Have a large piece for the left side, a couple medium pieces and several smaller pieces. I'll have to plan a layout and see what I can come up with.




The Amazon Nut...

Hi,
Susan and I are doing fine. We are now looking at
retirement in 2-3 years, and moving to our home inside
the CO Rockies permanently.
Meanwhile still plugging away.

Your ideas sound fine. I would quarantine the fish and
medicate them with that drug. Better to be safe than
sorry.

The peat, and peat pellets may do the job. I would not
count on the driftwood. While driftwood does release
tanic acid into the water, over time the amount tapers off
and would become a nonproblem.

Frank

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Glad to hear you and Susan are well

What fish / tanks are you keeping these days ?

Have the the tank, stand, wood, heater, and enough lights to keep the plants going already.

I could use the rest of my old hardware and substrate to stay budget but debating on upgrades. They'd be worth it I know they'd last a long time, just a matter of how to budget. Eheim classic, inline heater, 4ft T5 HO, and a new substrate. Thinking of a python too, so sick of lugging buckets ! So yup, some weighing priorities, decisions and planning. Still debating the discus too want to make sure I could provide a healthy home, but it would be awesome to finally have some

The Amazon Nut...

Hi DaMossMan

As I mentioned in that other thread of mine, I wouldn't treat preventively with metro, but I would worm with levamisole and praziquantel. Keep the antibiotics, like metro, for when you know you have a need for them. Metro's effectiveness is diminished by overuse.

If you plan to add the Turks to a planted tank, IMO, it would be best for you to get adults. Juvenile discus need to be fed heavily and often & it is just too hard to keep the water quality up in a planted tank. Juvenile discus should have a water change daily & be in a BB. I was told all this & ignored it because I do hate BB tanks. The result was I stunted a few nice discus. Once a discus is stunted, it is stunted for life. You can tell a discus is stunted by it's small body & it's out of proportion eyes. Even though the body stops growing, the eyes don't. As an example, this pic shows a white juvenile. Note the small eyes on the white discus. Behind the juvenile is an adult discus that I stunted. Even though he is several years old, his body is no bigger than the white juvenile & see how much bigger his eye is? I stunted him, by trying to grow him up in a planted tank.

There are some who have been able to grow up a juvenile discus properly in a planted tank, so I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's not easy to do & those that succeed seem to be the exception. Just my opinion & what i have read, observed & experienced.

Adults do just fine in a planted tank. My adult discus are in this 7ft planted tank. It only gets a 50% water change once a week

Cheers
TW

WHOAAAAAAAA.......

That's a very nice looking tank, TW! I'm jealous! I saw a 75 gallon in one of my lfs the other day, and I studied the setup inside, and all the fish in it (looked a little overstocked imo, but that's neither here nor there). I wish I had been more creative with my tank to try and create gravel shelves similar to how they were in the store tank. Maybe in my next tank. I mean, I'm pleased for the most part in how my decorating turned out, and I think I have been a little creative, but I kind of wish I'd done things a bit differently. Oh well, next time.

Oh, sorry to be stupid, but what is BB? BB to me means Bed & Breakfast, and I highly doubt that's what you mean here, lol.

What an amazing tank !

I love the look, the planted then sandy areas, I was thinking of the left third of tank large piece of driftwood & sandy. On the middle and right third, either dark substrate, or my old flourite capped with river rock pea gravel. I could use some aquacaping tips from you that is for sure ! How do you keep those areas separate ?

Fry also produce a chemical that retards growth. High TDS is the plant tank issue you refer to. Breeding is not my intention at this time, wish I had the time and space to devote to it

Is 5-6 inch across discus big enough for a plant tank ?

Thank you for your valuable input and advice, keep it coming.

More inspiring tank / discus shots welcome from any of you as well.












The Amazon Nut...

BB is a bare-bottom tank lol

Yup Robyn's tank is truly inspiring. Definately a work of care and dedication. If my results are close to half as nice I'd be extremely pleased !

The Amazon Nut...

Oh, I see. Thank you very much!

Hi Delenn, thanks for nice words. I'm sure your tank is lovely. As you have said you're pleased with it for the most part, you can't ask for much more than that. I don't think we are ever really satisifed. We each think we could have better, different, been more creative, etc.

How do you keep those areas separate ?

The planted areas are ADA aquasoil & the beach section is silica pool filter sand. I have rocks creating a border/retaining wall, going all the way down to the glass & siliconed in place. Naturally, there were still little gaps which would have allowed substrate mix, so sand coloured gravel was siliconed in all the gaps. In the beginning, there were still points where the ADA Aquasoil could spill into the sand area. These were blocked with more of the same matching rock. It also helps if your rock border is a little higher than the substrates on either side of it. You may still get a little spill, but the more time you spend getting your retaining wall right, the easier things will be.

At first it looked a little man made (some would say still does) but as my rocks aged & developed a little algae, they look more natural.

IMO, the trick to having twin substrates that is maintainable in the long term, is having a border that keeps them separated, and yet one you can accept having in your tank. IMO, most of those beautiful ADA Amano type layouts, where the division between the two substrates is seamless - well, I think they would be a nightmare to keep looking good. I suspect, they are not meant to be maintained long term anyway. Just my opinion.

Having a secure retaining wall also allows me to occasionally syphon out all my sand for a thorough cleaning. The sand can discolour over time & lets me give it a thorough clean & bring it back to the white colour I like. (A wide hose, like for a washing machine, gets the sand out super fast).

Fry also produce a chemical that retards growth.

I'm not talking about fry, although the same applies there even more. Juveniles are older than fry - they're the size to be considered as fish, not fry. Discus under 12 months are usually referred to as juveniles.

High TDS is the plant tank issue you refer to.

That's most likely it, but I haven't bothered to get a tester for TDS, so I spoke in simple terms. Juvi discus need to be fed heavily 4-6 times a day. After 15-30 mins you vac up the leftovers. One of the best foods for them is beefheart, but it can be messy. Homemade if you can manage it - works out cheaper & you know it's got all the good things in it. Once a day you do a 50% wc. All these heavy feedings, even with doing your daily wc, they just make it hard to keep the water quality up. Too many nooks & cranies for the waste to creep into.

Is 5-6 inch across discus big enough for a plant tank ?

I think in metric, but I think it would still be a juvi if 2-5" is the measurement from tip of tail tail to tip of nose. 6" is probably still borderline, but like I said, I don't think in imperial measurements. If you know a breeder you trust, ask them if it's a juvi or not. Depending on how knowledgeable your LFS is, they mightn't know the answer, but a breeder would. Mostly, it is juvis that are for sale in LFS, because it takes such an investment of time for the breeder to grow them up to adulthood. Those that are grown up before they're sold - well, their price usually reflects the extra effort.

This thread helps demonstrates the size of a stunted discus eye and what it should look like http://www.discusforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18406

The eye size rule doesn't apply to wild discus though - they naturally have bigger eyes, but still manage not to look stunted.

Sorry, I have waffled on to much LOL. Will leave you to it

Cheers
TW

No worries it never hurts to have a discus expert 'Waffling On' lol


The Amazon Nut...

Wow. I didn't realize how much work goes in to having a Discus tank. I don't think I could handle doing daily water changes. I'm not even looking forward to doing water changes once a week, lol.

"Wow. I didn't realize how much work goes in to having a Discus tank. I don't think I could handle doing daily water changes. I'm not even looking forward to doing water changes once a week, lol."

Hi Delenn
Almost every serious fish breeder does daily water changes, it facilitates good health and rapid growth. I don't have time for that either. I've been lugging buckets for years and it becomes a chore

I do mine twice a month 25% but I'm medium planted, very understocked, and feed once per day.

For discus and angels I'm considering for the first time buying a canister filter. Also an inline heater to go with it. Also a python to make me more likely to do water changes faster, easier, and more often.

Comparing these so far. Cheapest to most expensive.
eheim classic 2215, eheim ecco 2236, Rena xp2
Rena xp3, fluval 405.

Wondering which is quiet, easy to maintain and switch out media, holds the most media. Any opinions ?

Also any opinions on if any of these automatic fish feeders are good ?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-supplies/aquarium-fish-feeders/ps/c/3578/4430

I'm often away on the weekend, don't want them to go hungry.




The Amazon Nut...

DaMossMan,

Definitely get an canister filter they are great. I love my eheim canister. I have never tried
the ecco, but the classic line is good. The classic runs silently and the media baskets allow
for plenty of customization of the media so you can run peat if you want a realistic discus
biotope. The classic is also easy co lean, there are shut-off valves on the tubing so all you
have to do is seal the filter, unplug, carry to a sink, rinse and clean, fill back up, hook back
up, turn it on, open the valves and voila.

I love my inline heater, I find it distributes heat more evenly through the water
column and also protects your fish from any potential burns. Aesthetically they also open up
the back wall of the aquarium making it easier to keep free from algae.

It was the E classic that I was looking at in the store.
DrF&S has the 2215 for 129.99 but I'm going to see how much it's on for at Menagerie Pet Shoppe.

Although not exactly a biotope (SouthAmeriKazian II = split biotope) I do want to run peat pellets in there as well as an initial peat layer under the substrate.

I might very well get that one, thanks again

Any thought on an automatic feeder ?

The Amazon Nut...

Oh, fish breeder, OK. Well, I have absolutely NO intention of breeding my fish. Course, when I had guppies, I didn't really have a choice, they're kind of like rabbits in that respect, lol. But I just want a nice tank of fish to look at and enjoy, not breed. And all my plants are plastic. I prefer them. I thought about doing the fabric-type plants which I've done before, but I hated trying to clean algae off of them. It wouldn't work well, and no matter how much I scrubbed them, there was always still some algae left in the "pores" of the plants and the algae would grow back quickly.

I've only ever heard good things about the eheim classics, so don't think you can go wrong there. I have the eheim pro II's, but I've heard since that the classics are better (& cheaper).

Water changes aren't such a problem, if you use either a python or a pump. I haven't lugged a bucket for years and I am too lazy to ever do that again. I chose a pump over the python, as the python wastes a lot of water during the syphon process.

25% twice a month mightn't be enough for discus. Don't just take my advice on this. Visit discus forums, ask lots of questions, see what others say to you. Or just read the threads there. A lot will say that I don't change enough, but I think with a planted tank, you get away with 50% weekly. IMO the plants help keep the tank healthy & suck up some of the excess nutrients.

It was not such a problem for me, when I started keeping discus. I do the EI fertilisation method, which requires 50% wc weekly. So for me, my routine didn't change. I always have done 50% weekly. Only if I have a tank of juveniles do I do 50% daily. No, I don't breed either. But juveniles are what you usually find for sale at LFS.

The only thing that changed was I simplified my live plants. I no longer have fast growers and anything that needs trimming, can be trimmed from the top. Nothing that needs to be pulled up, trimmed from the base & replanted. Not all plants survive in the higher heat for discus. Tropica has temp guides for plants, so that helps in making selections.

Sorry, another composition LOL You can probably tell I'm passionate about my fish, especially my discus.

Cheers
TW

My plant list is in the other thread, but they are all slow growing low maint

More info on the pump pls ? Definately that or a python in my near future. And yup, firm now on a canister and inline heater, thanks to you both

Now have to decide on substrate. I'm leaning towards flourite or eco-complete capped by small river rock pea gravel. There's a few ways I can go here so bouncing ideas around. It's a hard decision !

The Amazon Nut...