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I want to add a sea fan and seashells into my freshwater aquarium for decoration. Many sites state they are safe for FW or SW aquariums, but are they really? The sites do say that the pH level will rise, but how much? My tank already has a high pH level..will the pH continue to go up over time with these items in the tank or will the pH eventually reach a plateau and remain at a certain (high) pH?

Hi there,
well to give an example, I have ph 7.8 and a gh of
260ppm out of the tap. I added 4-5 small seashells to my tank and the ph rose up to 8.8 and gh went over 400ppm.
So yes, it will definitely raise your ph and gh.
This is ok if you have hardwater fish like african cichlids, but no good for softwater fish like tetras and the like.


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I agree with S-V-S.

Exactly for the reason that they help raise the pH, my son has used corals (instead of rocks) in his african tank. Raising the pH there is a good thing, but for most freshwater fish, you don't want to be doing anything to rais pH, if your starting value is already high.

Anyway, just because I like my son's tank, here's a pic of how he used the corals etc in his set up.


Attached Image:


Cheers
TW

As stated above, objects with calcareous content (shells, corals, limestone rocks) are GOOD in an aquarium intended to house fishes that live naturally in high mineral content waters (saltwater fishes, African Rift Lake Cichlids, those Central American Cichlids that live in watercourses that flow through limestone rich areas naturally) but BAD in an aquarium intended to house fishes from waters with low natural mineral content (Amazonian fishes such as Discus, Cardinals, Rummy Nosed Tetras - the Rummies will become sterile in hard water).

Shells will be of particular use in an aquarium devoted to Tanganyikan shell dwelling Cichlids if you cannot find any genuine Neothauma Tanganyikan snail shells for them to occupy. The shell dwellers will take up residence in them for breeding purposes, and the buffering capacity of the shells will help keep the pH and hardness at the levels these fishes need.

As always, it pays to do basic research, and only use such items in a situation where their environmental effects will be of benefit to the fish species residing in the aquarium.

Incidentally, corals might not be a good idea even in an aquarium devoted to Rift Lake fishes, because some coral species have dead skeletons that are very abrasive and edged with sharp projections that could injure those fishes not accustomed to them. Corals I would leave to a marine aquarium containing coral reef fishes for that reason, even though their calcium content would provide a valuable mineral and pH buffer in a hard water aquarium. Coral skeletons that are non abrasive would probably be fine (if decidedly incongruous looking in a freshwater setup) but then you would have the additional task of examining your coral in minute detail to determine if it is safe from the standpoint of abrasion.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

If your ph is already up around 8.2-8.4 the shells or coral will have little to no effect. I've got a ton of oyster and snail shells in a couple of my tanks and the ph doesn't budge. I had around 200 applesnail shells in the 55g from the yoyo loaches wiping out half the population before I moved them and it had no impact. I've also packed tanks full of limestone for decoration and never seen the ph budge a single point. Coral or argonite and calcite sand might raise the ph by .1-.2 but that's about it. If your fish are already in that hard high ph water it really doesn't matter if you add such things since they will not break down much. If you're trying to keep the ph lower than that though adding such things would be very detrimentral. Any water with a ph below about 8.0 will end up increasing until it reaches 8.2 or slightly higher.

How slowly would it increase?

Just to show you the kind I'm talking about:
http://www.seashellcity.com/sealife/sealife9.html

This is for a 55gal tank by the way.

The problem is I don't want cichlids. I have some tetra in there which I could get rid of, I also have livebearers...which should do ok right because they like hard water? Water are some other fish that definitely like soft water..I know rams, neons, angels?, all tetras?

By the way does anyone have a Freshwater Master Test Kit, I have one but I lost the color chart to the high range pH so I have no idea how to tell what the pH is, its either at the high end of the normal pH chart which is around 7.6 or its at the low in of the high range pH chart I think...the color turned out orangish if that helps anyone help me figure it out....

Get Rid Of Them

.......Just Kidding, I know that you are going to sell it, move it, or give it away.......Right?

I also have livebearers...which should do ok right because they like hard water?

I think that they are softer water fish........

By the way does anyone have a Freshwater Master Test Kit, I have one but I lost the color chart to the high range pH so I have no idea how to tell what the pH is, its either at the high end of the normal pH chart which is around 7.6 or its at the low in of the high range pH chart I think...the color turned out orangish if that helps anyone help me figure it out....

That depends on the brand......If its API, then it would have to be in the 8.0-8.2 range....Again, just a guess......

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Hi there,
Livebearers are fine in hard water, no problems with that.
Tetras and Rams, Angels and others like that wont
do very well in water that hard. Definitely do not put seashells in your tank if you have any of those fish.
In fact, you should consider adding peat or something similar to soften hard water for those fish.


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If it's off the low range ph chart then can't really help you without more description. Even then it would be hard to pinpoint the ph but the high range test goes yellow to brown to purple. Light or yellowish brown would be 7.8 or lower and dark brown turning to purple would be beyond 8.0. I also found if it turns reddish then it's 9.0 which is beyond all of API's test kits and I had to use a tetra test kit that goes up to 10ph to figure that out.

If your ph is testing in the 7s I would not add shells unless you want to get hardwater fish. You could do a shelldweller tank. There are many many different types of cichlids including the angels and rams so if you just don't like a particular type you can still probably find some hardwater cichlids you do like. Most fish can adjust to a high ph but I really don't think it's fair to make them do so just so you can decorate how you want. Why not get some fake shells or just get hardwater fish. Any of the brackish fish would also work, depending on tank size, but would require slightly more care.

Ok so my pH is probably 7.6-7.8 without any seashells or coral. Are there any small cichlids that can go with livebearers (guppies, mollies, platys, swordtails)? And that also like hardwater? The seashells I get (now that I think about it) will probably be fake, but the sea fan is the real thing (dried but real) so I guess it would still raise the pH level right?

And by "get rid of" I mean give away haha.

So no tetras hmm that narrows the field alot. What about barbs? Gouramis? Rainbowfish?

Ummmmmmmm........The post of mine was meant to say "lower PH" instead of softer water. My bad..........

Rams, i heard, are quite peaceful when not breeding, and could go with most fish of community tanks.

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Livebearers like a high pH and rams like soft water...I think?? I think I'm going to have just livebearers, maybe rainbows, and snails. My centerpiece fish I want to be a sailfin molly that gets to like 6" or so....or I would like a small cichlid with the livebearers and rainbows.

Anyone know of an online site to get artificial seashells? I just keep finding sites that sell the real thing.

If you';re looking for a non-Rift Cichlid that will do well in hard water, Anomalochromis thomasi (yes, I'm plugging this species again) has a wide water chemistry range. It's also peaceful, a dependable parent, and will live with your livebearers quite happily.

Rams are soft, acidic water fishes. Don't choose those.

If you're looking for something a bit different, Herotilapia multispinosa is a Central American Cichlid that will tolerate hard water, and will live with robust fishes such as large Mollies. I wouldn't put it in with anything small enough to eat though! Also, space considerations come into play in the case of Herotilapia multispinosa, because it's definitely territorial and won't be afraid to assert its property rights if it feels cramped.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I agree with Calis ideas.

Barbs and rainbows would also be fine.


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I do like the Rainbow cichlid. I don't like the first suggestion so much though. I mainly like South American cichlids. Any cichlids by chance that won't eat at a fish that is smaller than it?

i havent seen anyone post the other side of the spectrum yet. you could always find man made lookalike, which are usually are made of an inert material and coated with silicone

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Item one: yes, you can get synthetic alternatives that are inert and won't affect your water chemistry. It's a matter of cost though - quite a few of the synthetic versions have, let's call tem "interesting" price tags shall we?

Item two: if you're planning on the setup being home to robust fishes, then you should be planning to house fishes that won't get eaten to begin with. So, for example, if you decide to run with the Rainbow Cichlid, suitable companions would include Buenos Aires Tetras, which are tough enough to live as dither fish alongside Convicts. If you acquire a Rainbow Cichlid (or for that matter a pair) then Buenos Aires Tetras are definitely tough enough to stand the heat, and more besides. If they can live alongside Convicts and Salvinis, they'll not find a Rainbow Cichlid too troublesome.

This leaves the matter of whether or not you're going to put bottom feeders in there. If you want a bottom feeder, again, you should be looking at something robust - a small Doradid catfish (Doradids are underwater main battle tanks with enough armour and spines to make even a Dempsey think twice about an attack) or one of the tougher Loach species. One Loach that would certainly be tough enough to live alongside your other fishes would be the Skunk Botia, though that fish might prove even more aggressive than the Rainbow Cichlid - it has quite a reputation for being an aquarium headbanger!

Given the size of your aquarium, I'd suggest that a pair of Rainbow Cichlids and 6 Buenos Aires Tetras means you're more or less stocked (the Buenos Aires Tetras will reach a fair size themselves - three and a half inches) and your choice of bottom feeder in that setup will require a LOT of care. Since hard, alkaline water is being mooted here as the ambient conditions (oh by the way, Buenos Aires Tetras will live OK in that water, you just might not be able to breed them in it) then one possible choice would be a Rift Lake Synodontis, but ONLY if you can be sure after much research that other compatibility issues do not rule such a choice out.

In addition, bear in mind that while Doradid Catfishes are togh, most of them are Amazonian fishes, and choosing something like a Raphael to live in a tank with hard, alkaline water could be problematic. Loaches would probably be less problematic in this regard, but even so, your choices here are going to require a LOT of prior research, and you may find yourself abandoning having a bottom feeder in there at all.

EDIT : oops, thought you were talking about a 30 gallon. It's a 55. In whihch case you have somewhat more room for manouevre. Pair of Rainbow Cichlids, 8-10 Buenos Aires possibly a trio of Skunk Loaches if you integrate them without the tank turning into a battlegound. If not, a different Loach species may be called for.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I like rainbow cichlids and South American cichlids...BUT I don't want any in the tank if they would be aggressive to other smaller fish (which I'm guessing there are none that wouldn't be).

Ah "synthetic" THATS the word I need to search for on google, i've tried "replica", "replication", "artificial", "resin", but still only the real thing comes up in the searches but I'll try "synthetic" and see what I find.

All fish will eat smaller fish. Even the most peaceful will attempt to eat anything that fits in it's mouth. That's just how it works. They need to eat and they eat whatever they can. There are a few exceptions where you have large fish that actually have small mouths specially designed for small food but your not likely to look into any of those. You need to keep all fish in the tank of similar size otherwise something will get eaten even if you setup a completely peaceful tank.

i like cali's view on how to refer to high price tags. then again there is always plastic. but doesnt look as good.

just an idea, not sure if it would work but could't you get real seashells and aquarium silicone and coat them youself? the way i see you would save a couple bucks have a realistic seashell(becuase it is real) and it would be safe.

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