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hey guys,i was wondering if some of yous could clear some things upwhat is liplocking,i was told that it is a compatability test when 2 fish are guna spawn,ok so that made sense,but what does it mean when you see 2 fish of the same sex doing it,cause the small female blue acara babies i have at the moment have been doing it,and in my other tank,my fh babies are always liplocking,so can some1 answer this for please

Well, liplocking is the act when two fishes fight. Its not only in breeding that this occurs, and i have even seen my barbs do it. Personally i think that it is a fight for authority, and if they are reasonalby the same strength, they wont cause too much harm, but if the liplocking persists, then separate the two, because i have heard of injury to the mouth, eventually causing death by starvation. Just keep a close eye on why they are fighting, and if it gets bad. Otherwise, i think it is just natural rivalry.

Good Luck!

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Liplocking is anything from a moderate test of a partner, a bit of courtship if you like, all the way through to full on fighting with the intention to exhaust and kill in the ultimate expression of territoriality. Baby acaras become territorial in 3 months, they want each other gone. As soon as mine get to 3 months I have to start finding homes for them quick before they kill each other. Its direct competition, and its telling you its time they were split up.

Females liplock with females and males liplock with males, and pairs will attack either single sexes or other pairs directly. As soon as maturity begins to set in they want discrete territories of their own. Blue acaras are very intolerant of same sex tank compatriots. Seriously, if healthy these guys can be mean at 2 inches.

I could shoot you a video of some 40 or so I have left from the last batch fighting for territory, Trick is to split them up or sell them on before something fatal happens.

This isnt a mild rivarly like you get with barbs gobyfan, blue acaras are about 10 leagues above those petty little squabbles, they kill the hell out of each other. Take them most seriously.

I have seen it with my large CLs just inside the cave possibly a who is going to be boss or a this is my cave go and find your own. There was no injury marks on either fish thank goodness.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

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Keith

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I have nothing to add tothis dicussion other than that I am glad I checked it out. I learned a lot of new stuff today, lol. I love this site!

well you were rite again longhair,my acaras are nearlly 2 inches,and they are already little terrorists,i only have 6 left,witch 2 have paired up(im keeping them,truely a nice looking robust pair),and the rest are all females,so that leaves 4 to find new homes for.ive had ba many times,and i never had a batch so nasty and brightly coloured,and so eager to engaged in violencethe 2 that have paired,think nothing of standing up to my smaller gts,and my large ba and gt,and my huge pleco,i seen them shooing him away too,they are liplocking with the other tank mates,the smaller bas and gts,they have no fear of any tank mate,i cant beleave how fast they grew and hooked up,and now are guna spawnas i said,the other blue acara batches were never like this,,now ok,so thats the ba,all sorted out,thanx every1 for all your info,now the fish that every1 hatesmy fh babies,ok now these guys have been taken away from mum and dad,(and the cheeky bugers have dropped another batch of eggs,huge too>.<now they are only about 1 inch long,i cant even tell male from female yetand these guys lip lock all the time,there is about 25 left,all in a 29 gal,with asorted caves and hiddy holes,due to them being fh,its a bit of a drama when it come time to get rid of em,and with the sizes of the spawns,this makes it even harder,so how much longer do you rekon they could stay in the 29 gal,or you rekon just feed em to other fish.?yous should see these guys liplocking,theres no damage on any of them(no damage on the fish spoken of above ether),but they are constantly,liplocking and shooing ech other awayso what do youd rekon.?

4 1/2 to 5 months is about it, after that if they dont get territory they will be powerful enough to kill each other outright. They will actually breed at that age. Ive got a batch about the same age now, im hoping more of them go in the new year, or rather like yourself I'll find they will have to become feeders. Still, i'll have a happy turtle.

I think youve just discovered what a healthy homebred blue acara is like, those peaceful anorexic looking specimens you see in shops off import or bad breeders are just developmentally retarded by starvation and stress. Properly healthy baby blues arent that far off convicts for sheer bad temper.

I assume youve seen my blues in pictures before, they are built like battletanks compared to the crap you get in shops. Mine were second generation from wild stock,they themselves were captive breds, and every acara ive turned out since has been just as feisty and powerful, literally thousands on em, not a single deformity, or unusually placid specimen. At least you know youre doing your job right.lol Just goes to show the sheer abuse some fish stockists and breeders must put them through, mine are practically indestructible. God knows what they must do to em, and what pits of disease they must put them in.

Its like that bit from jaws .

"All they do is swim, eat , and make little acaras "

Still, a great cichlid for the first timer who has sense enough to avoid putting them in community. Like yourself, and the venerable Innes, those who keep them healthy have no illusions about their temperament. Like a convict on horlicks, and the first year is often the worst. Thankfully after 2 years of age they chill out a little, but not that much that you can trust them with peaceful fish outside of huuuge aquaria.

yeah ive seen emand to be honest,my little killers look exactly like yours,and like yours mine are mean robust,and love to engage in some combat,since the post at the top,ive gotten rid of the rest of my ba(still no luck with the fh,feeders are looking good)and the 2 that ive kept have now dropped a HUGE batch of eggs,and are garding them with the temper of a caged convict on crack,i thought they were mean b4,they are 10 times worse now,just lucky i was all prepaired for this,i think you have a valid point about the less better looking,and way less aggressive ba,some of the garbage they flog off in local fish stores,arent even close to these terrorists that you and i have,i have 1 older feamle,she is 1 of the less better looking strains,and she just keeps to her self now,but not the new guys,they will fight any time day or night if they feel the need.i cant wait to see what the babies from the new batch of eggs,are guna be like,normally blue acaras are a bit less aggressive than green terror,but these 2,hold back the gts not a problemdo yours have the vibrant blue colour,and the nice little spots longhair?i cant beleave how nice looking these 2 fish are...wow

the aggresion is wicked i had no idea these little guys could pack such a punch,the egss are just starting to hatch,you lnow when they are moving and shifting around trying to wiggle out,but all in all,i have to hand it to mum and dad,there first batch of babies,and they have held back all there tankmates,with no hesitation,these guys are definently TRUE blue acaras

yup, proper deep blues, and they are mean as hell.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_6729.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_6723.jpg

This one sports a few battlescars inflicted by his own mate over the last 2 years. They fall out only about 1 day in every 3-4 fry batches, but god, when they go, they go, its usually because the female wants to eat the fry and no way in hell is he about to let her. She has a big dent in her head at the moment from him warding her off, as you can see, she bites his sides.

Between them though, theyve produced maybe 2000 or more viable fry, and youre looking at one of the best single parent dads in the business. Once he raised a batch of 300 fry, start to finish. I watched it happen,his mate went nasty on seeing them hatched, ate a couple and he stared her down waiting to see if she would spit them out, the moment he realised she'd swallowed, he hit her like a train. I pulled her out of there with him trying to pummel both her and my hand and the net. We lost maybe 10 fry. Yep, thats 290 acaras I had to find homes for in one month.

Blue acara dads are parents like no other. Ive never seen such dedication in a fish.

Guarding his second batch of fry at 8 months old.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_4308.jpg

The fish on the right is him at about 7 months old fighting with a brother.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_3370.jpg

...and this is him at 3 months recovering from being underfed newly arrived at a fish store.Humble beginnings or what.lol

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_1938.jpg

..by contrast, heres one of my own raised babies at 3 months.This is how I typically let them go off to the shops.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_6731.jpg

...and heres one I kept back from a batch that were born about 5 months ago. I was actually worried about this one because it was a slow grower.lol, its still better than the crap you get in shops.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/longhairedgit/IMG_6734.jpg

Thats the thing that shops dont actually seem to realise, you do actually have to feed the bloody fish!

well my hat goes off to you AGAIN longhair,you are a great dad,and im not patting myself on the back,but my ba look exactly like yours,justa bit smallerand its funny what you said about dads being a great parent,the dad is garding the fry at the moment while mum is cleaning around the site,i wish i new how to post photosive got so many pics to show all you guys,its just driving me crazy,oh and the guys at my lfs,said the ba i dropped of,got taken like an hour laterand he already had ba in the shop,but the guy wanted the ones i dropped off,now that makes me feel good,but any normal fish keeper would have taken mine,they just looked some much better,and this was ater being transported,and they didnt even have time to settle in.i remember when i first red the profile on the ba,thinking how good the female in the picture looked,now its the complete oppisite,i think ours look a hundred times better,and i must say once the ba get going,they out compete my convicts in terms of breeding if you know what i mean,and convicts are known as fishtank rabbits,well these people have never had a TRUE blue acara pairalso in your ba pics the bites marks on the side,it must be a ba thing,cause mine do that as well,i cant wait to see how good the batch of fry looks,that dad is garding now,i dred the agression but,if the others were any indictionthese should be beautifulbut VERY nasty.but despite all the aggression,i must admit,i love these guys,everything about them just amazes me,there truely dazzeling apperance,there no picky huge appitite,to there great fighting abiltys,to there exceptional parenting skills,you gotta love em....

hey longhair,in the very last pic of your ba(the 1 you said was a slow grower)are those real plants in the background,if so what are they,and have you had any luck,with your ba leaving the plants alone.ive never bothered trying,i just thought,that they were that ruthless,that a plant would just be punished,then killed.

Just took a look at this thread.

First of all, looks like tbe behavioural bases have all been covered.

Second, I have to say that LHG's Blue Acaras are sterling specimens! Plus, I LOVE the contrast between the parlous state of the youngster he rescued and fattened up, and the positively burgeoning musculature of the new generation of babies LHG is due to pass on down the line. Basically, if you're purporting to be in the fish business (i.e., producing fish for sale for a living aiming to make a commercial profit) don't bother unless your fish are as good as LHG's juvenile Blue Acaras.

Incidentally, given how closely related Cichlids are to marine Damselfishes, one question I'd like to pose here if any of the SW crew are passing through is this - with the other similarities between the two Families with respect to territoriality and parental care of offspring, has lip locking been observed in Damselfishes as well as Cichlids? Only I cannot find any reference to lip locking in any of the books to hand as occurring in fishes other than Cichlids. The venerable Innes book certainly doesn't mention it except in the context of Cichlid behaviour, but as an added bonus, features photos of Dempseys breeding with the parents lip locking in courtship even though they have a batch of babies still on the go!


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Many thanks for the comments, and yes I do keep them with real plants, (I hate fake plants, often a vector for scratches, eye problems and infection) stuff that roots very well or grows quickly , in this case echinoda and wysteria. I keep those plants with the adults too, but yep they do occassionally pull em up, but rather than a vendetta against plants its more do do with clearing and trying areas out as good places to dig raising pits for fry.

If the tank is big enough you get too keep plants with em ok. If your tank is less than 30 gallon though, you might as well forget the plants, they do practise territorial clearing. They just dont like fry to be attacked by things hiding in vegetation nearby, they clear roughly 2 ft square areas so that they have a clear line of sight for decent defence of the fry.

ah ok,well thanx lh,ill give them plants a go.mum and dad moved the new fry to a pit yesterday,i just cant beleave how fast all this happened,i mean,mum and dad,it seems like they were only babies not long ago,now they are having there own,and also how fast these guys are growing,manthere grown rate is incredible,they are catching my green terror with ease,well ill grab them 2 plants next time im at my lfs,and see how i go..

Here's something interesting, I work at a zoo where our colony of meerkats is currently competing for the matriarch position. Yesterday I was watching them, and the meerkats that were fighting were going for each other's mouths (really surprising knowing how sharp their teeth are)! Pretty neat seeing a behavior in terrestrial mammals that is similar to something we see in fish.

Re: damselfishes, I seem to recall something about garibaldi having some sort of lip-locking behavior, I could be mistaken though.

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yeah its a tricky one,ive seen liplocking heaps,sometimes mild,and other times really full onid love to know what the fish are thinking while this is happening

The venerable Innes book certainly doesn't mention it except in the context of Cichlid behaviour, but as an added bonus, features photos of Dempseys breeding with the parents lip locking in courtship even though they have a batch of babies still on the go!

Yes , ive seen that entry too, and the acaras do show some similar behaviour, though it is very hard to tell what precisely is the meaning to be derived from seeing a couple with fry liplocking.

based on my own observation, blue acaras have a method of proclaiming their stamina and dominance and indicating that what they are hovering over is a nestsite by vigorous sudden head shaking. Theres no contact and it almost looks like someone shaking with rage, but shortly after such behaviour occurs the eggs are often laid, often within a day of witnessing it. Perhaps its a way to impress and an indication to mate. I mention this because Ive never seen my acaras liplocking as a precursor to mating, although they do occassionally do it, but its often after moving fry to different raising pits, and should a fry be eaten. It may serve as a subtle reminder within an existing relationship that there is a behavioral modification that one fish can inflict on another, and perhaps a male that doesnt remind the female that hes not about to let his fry be eaten, makes it more likely to happen. We may be seeing a counter behaviour, for another behaviour that occassionally needs reigning in.

Im convinced that fry culling is natural behaviour in blue acaras, also fry with perceptible weakness are the ones immediately ingested. Its almost a test the parents put them through, they suck them up , give them a wash and spit them out, and if the movement of the fry still doesnt look normal- they eat it to protect the other fry.

The opposite sex partner watches such events closely, and more often than not, if a particular parent starts getting too involved or too liberal in the application of a fry cull, there will be a liplock fight, which if unresolved, turns into a straight fight. I am assumming a male acara will try to protect his bloodline, even from his own female, presumably because passing on his genes is harder for him than for her, as with humans , most females can get a mate easily , (lol)conversely the male has to work for it, fight harder to win the right, and his opportunities to mate may be fewer and farther between, so he is especially committed to the task of protecting them.

I also think blue acaras lay eggs to provide food for the existing fry during lean times. In my early attempts at breeding them, i perhaps got the fry feeding a little wrong, I was heavily dependant on liquifry before I mastered the high production of aufwuchs without making the water quality lethal, and one batch of fry was laid (the adults had the calories to spare)to feed the preceding generation, which they did, the 2 week old fry immediately predated on the newborn fry after hatching, and they did very well on them too. The parents did not interfere or protect the new batch. Seems to me to be an amazing little emergency resource for lean times when acaras are forced to lay eggs in water bodies with a low amount of food, thus using their own energy to ensure the survival of a generation of fry.

Then, just to do your noodle in, one fry at 2 cms long (the size they would usually disperse away from the parents) that must have hidden whenever I was near, and was missed. The acaras had a breeding pause of a month, which is unusual, and I had just thought theyd slowed down, but they delayed breeding , obviously because of the one remaining and well grown fry. I only realised this when I found his corpse, the parents ripped him apart, yet did not eat him, and the new batch of eggs appeared the same day. In effect they tolerated their older fry for so long, (3 months -ish) then killed him so they could get on with raising a new generation free of the predational threat he may have represented.

Everything about these fish seems geared for population redoubling in the shortest possible time, and how much of their intelligence and calculation is instinctive or calculated and learned I couldnt tell you, but nevertheless their intelligence has to be considered very high for their type of organism. Their behaviour is both precise, adaptational, clinical yet variable according to circumstances, and always designed to come to a state of maximum productivity.

No wonder people are re-assessing fish behaviour as we speak if this can be witnessed in a home keepers kitchen. Fish as dumb animals or as lower intelligences are theories that at least to me- no longer apply! Ok your average neon tetra is hardly a brain surgeon, but acaras and other cichlids are compared to other fish what octopus are to snails IMHO. I think eventually were gonna find problem solving levels of intelligence arent as exclusive as we once thought.

The notion of evolution being linear is of course a long dead idea, and the idea of a higher evolved animal necessarily being more intelligent is to me equally ridiculous. I can say with no hesitation that some of the fish species ive kept are clearly, and undeniably more intelligent than many of the organisms and animal species supposedly placed above them. The acaras make some smaller reptiles and frogs look positively stupid by comparison. I think people forget that fish, though among one of natures earlier creations, have put in a lot more evolutionary and geological time than we have, and intelligence should be expected rather than as it is for most people- a surprise. Half the trick is knowing what youre looking at I guess.

now that is a post,honestly long hair,ive seen the same sort of thing gonig on with my blues.and if its ok with you,id like to print this out and show my guy at my lfs,i was trying to explain about our blues,having way better boold lines,thus being a much better all round fish,you know u have em,very beautiful,robust,solid,and ready for battle,and a spwan anytime...lol,so is ok if i print this up?

Of course, I am a big believer in the free distribution of information.Go for it!

A little additional information, I recently passed on 12 of my blues to my LFS down in gloucester, and this week, after 2 weeks of them being in the shop, despite growing normally and still being most powerful for their age -they have blanched a little. The lady who runs the shop is a kindly sort with nothing to hide and she allowed me to test the water so I could see whats happening. Her water quality was excellent, she uses the same conditioners as me , in fact we are on the same tapwater, no ammonia, no nitrite, nitrate inder 15 ppm, ph 6.8 (identical to mine)the territorial room was sufficient, and unfortunately for her, but rather good for the acaras, its not a busy shop, and they have some privacy. There were 2 differences, 2f cooler than my tanks which is hardly significant, as ive subjected my baby blues to a number of temps, but the major difference was the food. The store keeper accomodatingly agreed to go for a meatier more frequent diet, and she was happy, because 2 days later , she sold four, The moment they were in colour again, they sold! 25p or 12cents more food over 2 days, for a £20 or $40 return. Cant be bad.


She uses a little lifefood, but nothing like the amount theyre used to getting and shes relying on general omnivore pellets and flakes. Whereas the diet I give mine is nearly 80% carnivorous.

The answer to the condition in captive stock acaras my friends is simple and two fold. Breeders are taking the parents away from the young too early, 2 months isnt long enough, and second and by far the biggest factor is the diet. Pet shops arent giving them enough food, the food is of poor quality, and the feeding isnt heavy enough. These guys are no tetras- they are cichlids, they use the energy and you must feed them well.

Pet shops are developmentally damaging the fish so severely, to the degree the damage isnt always recoverable, and it changes the very appearance, strength, fertility and behaviour of them, not to mention a MASSIVE difference in the immune system and resistance to disease. I was lucky, I got my acaras young, and reversed it.From breeder to me took about a fortnight, and even then they were showing dietary issues. My young are passed on later,tougher and have been properly raised. Its more of a care issue than a genetic one.

In way though we always knew this, its common shop culture to underfeed, and its common breeder culture to use the cheapest bulk food available, and this doesnt make for healthy fry. The damage can live with a fish its whole life. The day you start letting your accountant dictate to you the quality of the food you offer, you might as well get the hell out of fishkeeping, because you'll join the ranks of chainstores with tanks full of blanched, skinny and diseased fish that no-one wants and the reputation suffers.

There are some things in life that are not no-cost options. Cichlids are one of them.

Just look at how blue rams have gone, how discus can be, and im sick of seeing skinny firemouths, rainbow cichlids and acaras in shops, theres just no need for it. How is it cheaper to underfeed a cichlid for months in a shop and at breeders, only to have it go unsold, become diseased, wane and die, when so many in good condition sell so fast, and command good prices?

In my book keep the accountants out of animal care, the buggers havent a clue, and know not what they do.Whenever someone in the animal care field talks to you about cutting down feed costs , you always know youre talking to an utter b*****d, caring animal care assistants and zookeepers alike im sure will agree with me there.

I'm sure the immoral actions of selective breeders, and the starvation diets inflicted upon fledgling fish by the LFS have contributed to innacurate care information for decades now, they have affected the way we expect fish to behave, and the way we keep them. They have lowered our expectations and retarded the advancement of the hobby, they have allowed diseases to proliferate and caused retailers to accept 20% plus death rates as normal. Even fish caresheets and profiles now have behavioural information in them based on crippled, starved, and developmentally retarded fish, for whom breeding hormones are reduced, and I for one am just staggered by how some aspects of fishkeeping have become so misinformed and maladjusted out of simple practises like underfeeding. From a simple act , the consequences can be very severe, even globally and in a whole culture. Why in gods name do we put up with it? Arent people sick of buying fish that have been badly raised and half starved? How do we ever expect to be successful fishkeepers when underfeeding, and not having species specific dietary balances is a major part of fifhkeeping retail culture? Why should the selection of a decent fish have to be almost an art ,based on individual batches according to condition for even experienced fishkeepers just because people are too damn tight to feed fish properly?

On paper a profit margin just isnt a representation of the real events. It might look good to your average manager who has a mind for figures, and as usual not much mind in any other respect, but cutting back on feed costs is no cost advantage if you get a reputation as a crippler of fish, and if your stock look ill. Its a cycle of ever decreasing decline. Healthy fish sell, starved ones dont. Customers want cheap fish, this will always be true, but when a cost cut is clearly visible in the condition of the fish, youre on a slipperly slope to anumal abuse. You cant command a good price for a sick fish, and the cycle just gets worse , and fish become worth pence, the death rates go up, and you make even less money, then your accountant comes back saying you need to cut costs further... I wish there was a way I could batter that message into the head of every fish retailer in the country, especially the pet superstores. Fish arent supposed to cost pence, their feed isnt supposed to cost pence, and life should never , ever be so cheap. Millions of fish die as a result of this every year.. millions.


Bloody cheapskates innit! Rant over.