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Ever wonder why online stores are so much cheaper than that small shop down the street? That store really can't cost that much to run, so why do they have to mark up so much? Generally, you don't see what is really happening. Lets talk about how a product gets from the manufacturer to your tank. Let’s use PowerFilterX20 from Acme Aquatics. Lets start with the store, then online.

First the components are made in factories. Sometimes they are made in the same place, sometimes not. Either way, they come together and get packaged one way or the other. Then, PetX distributor BUYS hundreds or even THOUSANDS of PowerFilterX20s to store in their warehouse. Then LFS BUYS x amount of PowerFilterX20s to put on their shelf for you to buy. The LFS has to make money, so there is a markup on what they pay for the product. The distributor has to make money, so they also markup what they paid for the product. So the cost of a product can be summed up in this equation:

Price = C+D+S

C=Cost of Manufacturing
D=Distributor Markup
S=Store Markup

Now lets look at the online store. The online store acts as a distributor, but sells to the public. Why can they sell to the public but not PetX distributor? Because distributors want to sell in quantities. Because online stores are not limited by physical distance, they sell to a whole country, or even the world. Basically, there is one less markup compared to the store.

Obviously it better to buy online then, right? Well, yes and no. If you want to save money, then generally yes. However, one thing you need to check for is shipping and handling. Sure, you might save $7 total online, but then, bang, $14 for S&H, you just lost $7 instead. Also, lets say you get a damaged or defective product. Not the store’s fault. With a physical store, you can return it and get a new one that day. With an online store, you looking at at LEAST a day before you get anything back. With this kind of hobby, day is WAY too long. Sure, your tank will be fine for a couple hours if it is big enough, but what do you tell the online store when you have a tank of discus and the temp has already dropped 2 degrees?

Also, you finally get your product home and… wait, what’s this part… and where does this go? How do I start it again? With a LFS, you can take your product in and get the help you need, then and there, right in front of you. How can an online store SHOW you how to do certain things?

Yes, you can save a ton of money online, but be sure to weigh the risks when getting equipment. Now, on to something the really makes me boil… online fish. Now, before I go on, let me say that YES, there has been success with online fish buying. However, I am posting what I feel about it.

When you get a fish from a LFS, it is YOUR responcibility once you leave the store. You know where the fish is, where its been, how long its been in the bag, so on and so forth. Now, lets say you buy a German Blue Ram online. First, before it is even netted, you have NO idea what the thing looks like. Sure, it might be good looking in one person’s eyes, but in yours? So now the fish is in the bag. What happens next? Who knows? In a LFS, most people watch the associate bag the fish and then hand them the bag or take it to the register. They want to know what is happening to their fish. With online stores, you have no idea. So one way or another, the Ram is shipped. But for how long? Many places do overnights, so you SHOULD get it the next day. But oh wait… the truck the fish was on broke down, or they lost the package, or something. You have no idea. Also, if there is no accidents like that, what about temperature issues? Heat/cold packs or work for so long. And styros only last so long.

But lets say it DOES get to your door. But when? What if your are not home? (story time) One time when I was home, I saw the mailman pull up and start to walk to the door. Figuring he had a package (which he did) I walked to the door, but before I could get there, he decided that he did not want to take the extra 10 steps to the door, so he TOSSED the box to the door. Lets say it’s the middle of winter. Your mailman is in a freezing cold car, with no heat, and the window down… he aint happy. Now he has a heavy box to lift!

Yes, I’m getting dramatic, but do you honestly think I am going out of line? Anyway, if the fish dies, then you have the hassle of having to send it back and getting a new one and somehow proving it wasn’t your fault it died.

Not to mention, some fish just don’t ship well. They are fine from store to home, but the long shipping process is long and hard on them and kills many. Why suffer that in your tank rather than letting the store go through it.

This is just a quick little rant I typed up at 1 in the morning, so I may not have thought things out, or missed some stuff, and I probably will come back and edit it and add stuff, but for now, this is all I have so far.

living in the bush where i do i buy some things on line, one time i got a delivery just before i had to go away for a few days , so i get back open the box everthings fine except for the airline t pieces and wooden air diffusers.
i rang the online store and got the man who packed the box and he said that they would be loose in the box ,but they werent .

not a big deal but annoying, i much prefer to shop at my local lfs if the prices are comparable

OH TOLEEDY!

I prefer to shop online. The nearest LFS to me has very little in the way of livestock (which aren't usually the healthiest anyway.) If they have more in their selection than platys, mollys, and guppies I am very suprised. They have a very small selection of food, almost nothing for filters, filter parts and decorations. Their prices for everything are quite high, almost ridiculous. I do try to stop in every once in a while to support them, but they never seem to have anything I want or need. Add on top of that they are only open tue-fri 1-5.

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I used to be Snow White, but I drifted.
~ Mae West

I definitely prefer to shop online, especially for equipment, but I buy fish by mail a lot, too. Maybe it's just my LFSs, but even after shipping most equipment costs 3x what it does online, so even after shipping, it's still at least 30% cheaper. The only time this doesn't apply is with tanks and stands (usually), though I've bought those online from time to time, too. I find it absolutely ridiculous that a heater I could have gotten for $12 online cost me nearly $30 in the LFS, but it was an emergency.

As for livestock, I've actually had better luck buying online than I have at the LFSs near me. Again, it may be just that my LFSs suck... I also buy online because I can get species that I don't often see in the LFS. Specific species of corys, unusual tetras, and especially cichlids of all types are more redily available through Aquabid or individual dealers. And I've found that the specimens I've gotten through the mail are more healthy and survive acclimation and quarrantine better than fish I've gotten at the LFS. In fact, I think I've only had 2 DOAs out of over 30 fish I've had shipped to me, and I still have most of them. On the other hand, I tend to loose at least one or two out of every batch I bring home from the LFS.

I would love to support the LFSs near me more often, but I just can't afford to be that charitable that often.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

illustrate,
Agreed with equipment the pricing is basically double in the LFS than it is online, but isn't it the reverse with fish. I mean the shipping is usually much more than the fish your buying? How do you get around the high shipping cost for fish?

My Scapes

I agree that the online purchase of fish is followed by outrageous shipping prices for it, but IMO it's worth it. I agree with illustrae...I can't get anything I need or want in the way of livestock at my LFS and when I tried to get them to order something for me they were limited by their one particular supplier and I wanted a neat, exotic SMALL pleco. They never called me back to tell me what they could get.

I've had really good luck with fish online so far and I'm probably going to do the same when I stock the 55. If I want something unique....I just have to justify the high shipping....just the way it is.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Yeah maybe for an exotic speciman, but if I want 6 cardinals at $2 a piece plus $35 for shipping that's $48 for 6 cardinals or $8 a piece. And that's assuming they all live.

My Scapes

Racso,

Thanks for the rant. I have a client who has a couple of pet stores. The e-tailers are driving him crazy and eventually out of business. The online price for some hardware is less than what he pays the distributor for the unit! Seems that the e-tailer has greater volume and therefore can buy product at a lower price than the distributor!

The question is then, how will the LFS or local pet stor survive? What happens when you don't have access to that information resource? What can the manufacturers do to ensure the survival of the "good" stores?



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Working in a LFS I see a lot of the issues as Bob as already talked about being I work for one of his clients. For the most part I try to buy from my work because I work there and the cash will come back to me. Although there are times when its hard not to buy online. I still can't immagain buying fish online and having them shipped to you...

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah maybe for an exotic speciman, but if I want 6 cardinals at $2 a piece plus $35 for shipping that's $48 for 6 cardinals or $8 a piece. And that's assuming they all live.

True, very undeniably true, but my LFS almost had heart failure when I asked if they would order some cardinal tetras for me. Not only do they not stock either cardinals or neons, but they said they would rather not order cardinals, but would rather order neons because they think they're "hardier".

I don't care what the LFS's opinion is on the debateable hardiness of either fish, I'm not going to stick a bunch of neons into a tank with angel fish only to become snacks because of their preference.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

It's true, the costs can be astronomical when it comes to shipping live fish. If I just wanted neons, guppies, or other fish that are plentiful and only cost like $2 at the LFS, then I have no problem buysing from the LFS. I go in and buy a Dozen ottos from the LFS every time I set up a new tank because ottos don't ship well, and they're easy to get locally. There's also the occasional impulse buy when they happen to have some good looking fish that they don't usually stock.
However, when I wanted a specific variety of Angelfish, I shelled out a ton of cash (nearly $100) for six gold marble veiltails from a very reliable and accomplished breeder and had them shipped overnight FedEx. They were gorgeous, healthy, and it was totally worth it. I even think that after losing all but one of them to a power outage that shut down my tanks for over 20 hours. The point is that my LFS couldn't have provided those kind of quality fish if they'd tried, and Angels are becomming a very sad story in many LFSs because of overbreeding and poor stock by the fish farms that supply these species.

When I first started buying fish online, I wanted 3-4 SAEs. The dealer I got them from said that the juveniles were fragile shippers, so I bought 6, and then they added 2 more bonus extras (which is nice of them, I suppose, but I sometimes get frustrated with dealers who do this with larger species). Well, I was expecting half of them to be dead on arrival, but they were all very much alive and kicking when they arrived and after a year I still have all 8 of them. It was fine when they were 2" juvies, but they are approaching 4" now and they are very active. So, it's very much hit or miss with buying fish online (sometimes in good ways, and sometimes in bad ways), but it can be very rewarding, and I have a lot of fish now that are wonderful specimens that my LFS doesn't have, and none of my friends who are into fish have. The hours of entertainment I have watching and caring for these beautiful animals makes the hundreds of dollars I've spent on them well worth it.

The biggest downside, I think, is that it gets addictive. It takes a lot of willpower lately to not see what's new on Aquabid or to resist ordering something when my favorite dealers send me their new stocklists... Around christmas I almost spent $200 on a huge variety pac of snails, shrimp, and crays, and I had to remind myself repeatedly that there was no way I could house all of them without going out and buying 2 new tanks... Of course then, it took all kinds of willpower not to go out and buy the new tanks anyway... It's a viscious cycle that never ends!

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

illustrae,

Well said

My Scapes

Agree 100%. I buy at my LFS when they have something I need, and the majority of my fish in my 29 are from two different LFS, but I don't think that's going to happen with my 55 for the reasons that isslustrae and I have both stated. Quality and specificity.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Well here is an issue with ordering fish for any so and so. Half the time the people don't come back for it. Depending on what it is the LFS might be stuck with it. With my store we have ordered quite a few things for people but it is normally people that the owners know and have dealt with before.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

If I owned an LFS and someone wanted me to order specific fish for them, I would totally ask for a deposit first. I know at least one of the LFSs near me do that when I buy specific size tanks from them that they don't have in stock, and I think it's a good and fair policy to have for any livestock.

Hoping that there must be a word for everything I mean...

Thanks for staying clam. Like I said, I wrote that at 1 in the morning. It doesn't go to say that online is always worse than online, obviously some of you have noted how online is better, and I agree. Fortunately, in Cincinnati, there are so many pet/fish stores, that you don't have to settel for less.

I purchase just about everything I ever buy on-line, not only for my aquarium supplies, but also anything else I can get. I do admit I have never purchased live fish on-line - yet, but will probably do so at one time or another.

It's not the cost of the product necessarily, but the convenience. I just don't have the time to go to the stores and shop (and I really don't enjoy it).

I can find better options and more choices on-line, it takes about 1/100th the time as going to the store, I save on gasoline as well as in most cases you don't have to pay a state sales tax on your purchases. It's delivered right to my front door, and if I want it tomorrow I can ususally get it (although at an extra cost). I think if you add up the savings in time and vehicle expenses the shipping cost is really a bargain.

Jim

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Water, taken in moderation, cannot hurt anybody. -- Mark Twain

Ok, just want to point out something that Oscar said in his last post...

Fortunately, in Cincinnati, there are so many pet/fish stores, that you don't have to settel for less.

that's the only reason that you have a valid reason to rant. Cincinnati is a city out of the ordinary, imo, in that the good lfs seem to outnumber the bad. Aquarium Adventure is a very nice lfs with good stock (though a couple of fish are extremely overpriced...*cough$70bluedempseys@1.5"cough* ) but anyway it is still a very nice lfs that I would have no problem shopping at regularly if one was near me. Aquatics and Exotics is also a very nice lfs and I know there are others. Ok, at least Cinci has lfs that only deal in fish...that's something I've yet to see anywhere in Indiana. So remember that, Oscar, you have the privelege of living in a town that has great lfs that carry quality stock that are worth supporting. This is definitely not the norm.

I do want to break down your original post and give you my thoughts...thoughts from someone who has only been to a good lfs by driving over your way.

Obviously it better to buy online then, right? Well, yes and no. If you want to save money, then generally yes. However, one thing you need to check for is shipping and handling. Sure, you might save $7 total online,

I'm not sure where you're shopping online, but if you're only saving $7 then what you're buying better only cost $14 at an lfs otherwise you're not shopping at the right place. I will admit, that if you order equipment online, then it's much better to so either before you set the tank up or if you're buying supplemental equipment to add onto your tank. For example, if you have a tank with one filter and you want to add a second then go ahead and buy it online. If you're buying before you set the tank up or buying supplemental equipment, then there is no problem if the product comes in damaged and you have to send it back. Yes there is the hassle of having to wait, but with a good online retailer will not charge you additional shipping if they sent you a broken produce or the product was damaged in shipping. However, if you have a tank whose filter crashed and you don't have a spare to put on it, the absolutely go pay that extra $$$ at an lfs so your fish don't die.

As for online retailers for equipment, I've only ever bought from www.bigalsonline.com and will continue to do so....forever. I save about half on anything I buy from them and if you buy enough, the savings are more than enough to compensate for shipping. For example, don't buy online if you only need one heater, but if you have multiple tanks and need several different things then you'll save a whole lot of money buying online. Buying a signle filter would be worth the $$$ though. For instance an Aquaclear 500 (now the 110 I think) costs roughly $75-80 at any lfs whereas at bigals it costs $36 I think. Shipping has never been more than $10 for me so that's $46 which is still a savings of around $30.

Also, you finally get your product home and… wait, what’s this part… and where does this go? How do I start it again? With a LFS, you can take your product in and get the help you need, then and there, right in front of you. How can an online store SHOW you how to do certain things?

they can't...that's when you either a) look up the product on the internet and almost always find the instructions you need or b) buy the product online and then go to the lfs and ask them how to work it. again that's assuming you have an lfs that has a clue about how the equipment you just bought works. ps, I know that option b) is not something an lfs worker wants to hear and I'm fully prepared to be smacked the next time I see you Oscar.

well I have to get ready for work, but when I get home I'll address the issues of ordering fish online.

ok back from work...

When you get a fish from a LFS, it is YOUR responcibility once you leave the store. You know where the fish is, where its been, how long its been in the bag, so on and so forth

yes, but one thing you don't know is how long it's been at the lfs, and for that matter how long it's been at the distributor. an example...the lfs I used to work at let me go to one of the distributors to pick out some cool CA and SA cichlids. I went with one of the other guys and we got some really cool fish. About a month later the ownership of the store changed hands and I decided to quit since I was only working there one night a week anyway. Well, that was about a year ago. Roughly 6-8 months later I went back in to see some of the people I used to work with and see what fish they had in and to my surprise, they still had most of the cichlids that I picked out and they hadn't grown even the slightest bit. I was in there today and they still had at least 10-12 of the fish that I picked out around a year ago. they had grown some but not nearly like they should have in a year's time. so, if I'm John Q. Fishguy going in there buying cichlids and I get one of those cichlids, what are the odds that they are completely healthy first of all? also, what type of growth will they achieve after a year in an lfs tank. now, some stores you know are busy enough that something like that wouldn't happen, but as someone just walking in off the street you don't have any idea of how long those fish have been in the tank nor (more importantly) what kind of care the fish receive while in the store. now on the other hand, if you're able to find a trusted breeder online either via forum or aquabid (personally I don't buy fish from online retailers) then you will have a much better idea of how old the fish are, possibly what locale they are as a lot of breeders who sell online buy wild stock for breeding and know exactly where they came from. there's a better chance of buying F1, F2 or possibly even F0 livestock online. not to mention that if you find the right online sellers, you know you're getting pure stock as opposed to stock from a fish farm which is often times (in the case with many cichlids anyway) a bunch of hybrids.

the key to buying online is to find someone trustworthy and to buy as much at a time as you can. finding someone trustworthy can be a lot easier than it sounds. when you've been a member of a particular forum for a year or more, then you start to get an idea of who is reputable and who is not. on aquabid you have the luxury of feedback. find someone with really good feedback and you're good to go.

the more you buy at a time, the less the amount per fish will be. I figure if I go to an lfs, I'm going to pay a minimum of $5-$10 for about any cichlid that I'd want to buy. if I'm buying online (for cichlids that's usually through Jeff Rapps) then I can buy say 10-15 fish at $5.50 (the cost for a lot of his juvenile cichlids) and then add shipping to that and the overall price per fish is $10. so I'm spending $10 per fish on what I know are top quality fish that I couldn't find at an lfs, and if by chance I did find them at an lfs they would probably cost in the $20 range. the down side is that in doing this you're spending big chunks at a time which is why I don't buy online very often. I do still shop at lfs on occasion, if they happen to have something that I really want. for instance, a month or so ago I happened to find a tank at an lfs with 5 juvie N. haitiensis. I about fell over because haitiensis aren't something you're likely to find at an lfs. they were $10 ea. so I picked up 3. in that situation shopping at the lfs worked out to my advantage because I only had to spend $30 on what I wanted. so, there are pros and cons both ways, but shopping online can very much work out to your advantage.

But oh wait… the truck the fish was on broke down, or they lost the package, or something. You have no idea.

never had that happen, but if it did then the shipping company would be liable. ps. that's why I prefer fedex or ups. they cost a little more than usps but are much more dependable and punctual.

But lets say it DOES get to your door. But when? What if your are not home?

well, if you're not at home then that's your fault for not planning an appropriate day for you to receive the fish. anytime I've ordered online, I've been able to make arrangements with the seller as to which day is best for me to receive the fish, and the seller plans accordingly. I always make sure I will be off work the entire day so I can acclimate the new fish properly.

he decided that he did not want to take the extra 10 steps to the door, so he TOSSED the box to the door.

I've never had a seller not mark the box "Fragile, Live Fish". if a postman was tossing around a box with such a label then I'm sure you could rather easily have him/her fired. I've never received a shipment that had any evidence of rough handling during the shipment.

well that's about it....sorry this is soooooooooooooooooo long.

I agree with you nosaJ, and I never claimed that my rant was 100% concrete.... after all, it was a rant. And yes, I did go to extremes. The main point of my rant was to make people understand what they are getting into. I can't tell you how many customers I've personnaly had leave the store saying "Wow, that fish is much cheaper online" or something along those lines, then come back a week later to buy the fish.

My main rant was for the fish, even though I focused a lot on the equipment.

Anyway, good comments all around.