FishProfiles.com Message Forums

I need to have 20G of water at 80F for a water change, but do not have an additional heater to pre-heat the water. And it'll take a while to get the water heat up to 80F by a heater(temp from my tap is arond 50F. Any suggestion to safely heat up the amount of water I need for the water change? Not sure if I could heat the water on a burner and mix it with some stored water (at 67F).

Thanks.

Heh, do what I do.

I boil a kettle and use that to mix water to the correct temperature. But then, kettles are probably an English peculiarity (connected with our love of tea ) that are in somewhat short supply on the other side of the Atlantic ...

I certainly wouldnt recommend boiling water in a pan unless it's Teflon coated. Any exposed metal surface will develop a hideous black tarnish if you do that. Probably not good for the fishes.

A kettle, on the other hand, if it's a decent one (i.e., the innards are mostly high thermal resistance plastic) does the job nicely if you're mixing 15 litres at a time in a bucket.

Take a peek here and at the next three photos in the sequence to see my water changing in action. Note the digital theremometer I use to keep track of the temperature as I mix the water (you should be able to read the temperature reading from the photo!).

If you don't have a kettle, see if you can find a cheap one just for the purpose. Something akin to this should do, especially if you can get one for under $10 where you live. Doesn't have to have a lot of bells and whistles, all it needs to be able to do is boil water.

[Edited for broken tags]


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

I've microwaved water before and then mixed it to the right temperature. Usually there's no need though. I've done 25% water changes with water below 70F and not had the temp swing a noticeable amount. Our well water came out of tap at 50F. Most fish handle a slight drop in temperature fine and the temp is often dropped purposely with a water change using colder water to induce spawning of many fish species. So long as you don't do a big water change and have a good heater the temp rarely moves enough to bother the fish.

Ok guys.........am I missing something here????

When I do a water change I turn on the hot & cold water & adjust it till it feels like the water in the tank. I watch the water temp. in the tank & so far I am real good at judging the temp. & it doesn't change. What is all this talk about heating up water in a pan or something??

Hot tapwater often contains more nasty things than cold water. There are some that say it doesn't matter and perhaps in at least some situations that's true. The well water I used to use contained sulfur compounds and after going through the water heater got turned into hydrogen sulfide which is highly toxic to fish so hot water was out for me. Also some houses with older pipes may give off more metals like copper when hot water is run over them potentially killing at least inverts but not great for fish either. Usually it's recommended to only use the cold side of the faucet and then if necessary heat up the water using an extra heater.

Oh man! No wonder I choose the quote, "I have to do what !?." That is my own quote! Well, hubby said we have steel & plastic piping & there is no sulfur taste to the water. So maybe we are safe to use the hot water for fish?? Is there a test kit for this also to determine if our hot water is bad for the fish?

I read about an experiment an ordinary person did about microwaving water. They had two plants, same kind & same size & same container & in the same place. They gave microwaved boiled water to one plant & stove boiled water to the other plant. Of course the water was cooled down. After a certain period of time (days.....weeks?) the microwaved water plant was dying or dead. The other plant was good. So microwaving removes or kills a life giving substance? I wonder if RO & distilled water does the same also?

Plants and fish won't live in pure distilled or RO water. It does not contain all the nutrients and buffers needed for life. You either mix it with tapwater or get powdered minerals and plant fertilizers to add back in. If you microwaved all the water you used then it could possibly pose a problem. It will break down certain nutrients in both food and drink if they aren't preserved. Boiling also destroys some nutrients but not as much. I think both Calilasseia and I were only talking about heating some of the water. I used only about 1g of microwaved water to 5g of cold water.

Oh yeah Sham, I understood what you guys were saying........ only limited amounts of the RO or distilled or heated water. I just thought that some people might find it interesting to know that microwaves destroy things in the water. I read that it does the same to food.

Soooooo when people drink RO water or bottled water, they are drinking water that has no life force in it?? Just curious............ people are supposed to drink a lot of water for their health. But I suppose "dead" water is better than not enough water.

If you search the net you'll find plenty of people who claim drinking ro or distilled water will cause a mineral deficiency. It's a highly debated topic on some health and pet boards and one I've been in the middle of plenty of times. Most of the stories supporting pure water causing mineral deficiencies seem to involve someone's cousin's boyfriend's sister who they heard had a mineral deficiency and happened to be drinking RO water with no information on the person's diet or other potential health problems that could contribute. All studies and research I've read says that unless your diet is already deficient in some minerals you will have no issues with drinking pure water. We get very little of our actual mineral requirements from water. It also cannot strip your body of minerals like some sites will try to tell you. The effect on fish is an entirely different matter since they actually live in the water.

Hmmmmm WE are made up of mostly water. Fish die in distilled water. Plants will die if given only distilled water. Innes & Cali. say if you take a fish from it's natural invironment, try to duplicate it in your aquarium. If I am ever captured by aliens, I hope they will give me GOOD "Earth" water. IMHO

Hi,
I've been changing water in aquariums for over 50 years
and I always mix hot and cold tap water to match the tank.
Most of the worry about "nasties" from hot water tanks are
from the "ancient" ones that were lined with metal tanks
and not fiberglass as todays are.
I would not worry about mixing tap water today.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks to all.
I guess it couldn't go wrong with 50 years of experience, and apparently it is the easiest way too .

But I do learn a lot from all you guys..

It also cannot strip your body of minerals like some sites will try to tell you.

But then explain why the physics says it is entirely possible and indeed the most likely thing that occurs. It is simple. You have a chemical (which would be a generic terms for almost anything in the body like a mineral, enzyme, protein, whatever) at a high concentration on one side, and a zero concentration on the other. The high concentration side is the tissues and fluids that occur naturally in the body. The zero concentration side is obviously the RO or distilled water.

Nature does not allow large gradients like this to occur. Some chemical will always go from the high side to the low side. This is simple physics of diffusion.

Now, how much get leached out, and obviously if you are eating a wide variety of good foods, how much it really is an issue is certainly debatable. Nevertheless, a blanket statement like "cannot strip your body of minerals" is completely false.

Unless you drink excessive amounts of pure water or have a poor diet your body should have no trouble eliminating any excess water. Drinking large of amounts of even bottled water or really soft tapwater will have the same effects as drinking large amounts of RO water. Even if you do everything wrong a glass of RO water probably still has fewer bad effects on health than a can of soda.

What happens to inorganic mineral compounds in our bodies (and that of fishes too) is actually a complex topic.

Some minerals are basic essentials for life - for example, without sodium and potassium compounds (which should also be present incidentally in our food), the central nrevous system ceases to function. Iron, of course, is an important component of haemoglobin (and without that iron atom at the centre of the porphyrin molecule, its oxygen and carbon dioxide transportation functions would not exist).

So what happens when we decide to use RO water, both for drinking and for our aquaria?

Well, it doesn't 'strip' minerals from our bodies. There may be an effect in humans due to the fact that we are reducing our mineral intake somewhat (and in a hard water district, reducing it more than in a soft water district) but in the case of we humans, our food should be the largest source of minerals. Any deficits that occur as a result of removing minerals from drinking water point to dietary deficiencies that the aqueous mineral content was hiding.

For fishes, the matter is of more fundamental import. After all, that water is going to be, to all intents and purposes, their atmosphere. Moreover, the effects of osmosis are going to be changed by the use of RO water in a freshwater aquarium (this doesn't affect marine aquaria because, by definition, we're mixing up a saltwater solution and creating a known mineral concentration).

In the freshwater environment, fishes are absorbing water on a continuous basis via osmosis. The outer integument of a fish is, in effect, a semi permeable membrane, which permits movement across it of water molecules, but acts as a barrier to many other molecules. For those unfamiliar with the concept of osmosis, I shall now introduce it, and then explain its impact upon the fish.

One of the fundamental principles that applies here is that where possible, a system seeks an equilibrium (usually a state in which some energy measure is a minimum). In the case of a solution of dissolved salts, that occurs when the solution is completely homogeneous - i.e., the concentration is identical throughout the volume of the solution.

When there exists some barrier preventing movement of the molecules of the solute (that is, the dissolved substance), tehn the equilibrium state can only be achieved if the water molecules move instead. Thus we arrive at the basic law of osmosis. If two solutions are separated by a semi permeable membrane (one that admits the passage of water molecules, but not that of dissolved solids) then water molecules will migrate from the solution with the lower concentration to that with the higher concentration, until the two are equal.

For our freshwater fish, we have a semi permeable membrane (the outer integument of the fish) separating a low concentration solution (the water outside the fish) from a high concentration solution (the tissues and blood of the fish). Water will then migrate into the fish. If the fish does not dispose of the excess water by some means (in this case, usually the intricate machinery of the kidneys) then the fish will experience several stresses. There will be physical stress (the increase of pressure within the fish's body as the migrating water builds up that pressure) and chemical stress (the knock on effects of dilution of its internal constituents). In excess, these effects will, ultimately, prove lethal. The freshwater fish, therefore, has a fair amount of molecular biology devoted to managing this.

Now, if the water outside the fish contains some dissolved minerals, the tendency of the water to migrate from outside into the fish will be less (depending upon concentration of course) than will be the case for pure water. Of course, some fishes are adapted to live naturally in waters with very low mineral concentrations, but in those cases, other compounds such as humic acids take the place of the minerals from the standpoint of osmotic buffering (e.g., the Cardinal Tetras from the Rio Negro).

If RO water is used without adding anything to it, the osmotic loading upon the fishes subjected to it will be greater. So, the usual practice is to add compounds of known provenance to the RO water, frequently in the interest of mimicking a particular habitat - calcium and magnesium salts in the case of Rift Lake water, or an additive such as Blackwater Tonic for a breeding aquarium for Cardinals. However, most fishes will expect something to be present in the water other than H2O molecules, and if we remove ALL dissolved content, without replacing some of that content with substances known to be of benefit to aquatic life, we could exchange one set of problems (those caused by unwanted dissolved content such as chloramines) for another.

In my case, my tap water leaves the tap more or less perfectly suited for South American fishes - in that respect I'm fortunate (particularly as I'm keeping South Americans in my aquarium!). All I need to do is ensure that the temperature of the incoming water is reasonably well matched to that of the outgoing water. Hence the trusty kettle.

As for using hot water from the system used to provide hot water for baths, showers etc., I would advise strongly against this because, frequently, the hot water systems of modern houses use copper piping. My own hot water tank is a huge 50 gallon tank, and one that is basically a big cylinder of copper. Water that has passed through copper piping is probably not going to be good news even in an aquarium occupied exclusively by fishes, but in any aquarium that contains invertebrates, it is very bad news indeed - the thought of what that would do to an expensive collection of corals in a marine setup should be enough to dissuade anyone from using such water in any aquarium.

Likewise, boiling water in a pan is likely to be a bad idea unless the pan is completely Teflon coated. The reason is that as the water heats up, some of the mineral content reacts with the metal of the pan. Not likely to be a good idea with aluminium pans (which tarnish a fairly scary black colour if used for boiling water - I've seen it happen with one of my own pans) because the last time I had an excess of aluminium ions in my aquarium (courtesy of the nice water company) I suffered a 50% wipeout of my stock.

A few things to ruminate upon there for you all.


Panda Catfish fan and keeper/breeder since Christmas 2002

Hi,
Modern homes and heating systems no longer use metallic
lined hot water tanks. Many homes do use copper water
piping but a simple flush (running the water for a few
minutes as you adjust for the correct temperature) will
reduce any copper in solution from standing stagnant in
the pipes, to nothing.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Without reading all those replies it should give you some think to think about.

This is what I do and have been doing it for many years about 20.

I store all my prepared water in plastic water containers for one week this has helped me control Ich (another story)

I have 4 X 15lt containers and I place three in front of a gas wall unit which fans hot air onto them all as well as that I rotate them in a laundry trough of hot water.

I have never used a temp gauge just my finger all I know it is always hotter than the tank water and has never caused a problem yet.

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW