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I've been moving too often for the past couple of years to keep any fish but I've settled down again and am looking to start my 20g up again. I would like to have this be a planted tank, which I've never done before, and also have dwarf cichlids. I would also like to do a fishless cycle if I can get the right materials. My only other want for this tank is a clown pleco because my spouse has been asking for one for years now.

So I'm interested in hearing thoughts on stocking, good substrates for plants, and any experiences with a fishless cycle.

Kribs might do well for you, not sure how they'd go with the plants since I cant keep plants with mine (the silver dollars keep eating them )

You may want to look into building up the hardscape in this tank. Kribs like lots of hiding spots, and do tend to hang out near the bottom. A small school of kribs should work along with the pleco, however I worry about heavy bottom stocking and not having enough room for everyone. A hollow log would also be a great idea (you'd want the wood for the pleco anyway).


As for fishless, if you cant find unscented uncolored ammonia, you can always use a sprinkle of fish food every day, that will eventually start to decompose starting the fishless cycle. I'd get the plants in and established as your first step. Keep in mind most 20's don't come with enough light, save yourself the hassle and get an all glass lid then look at lights that can fit over it. IMO 20's are a great size to go with heavy plantings. Still small enough to do DIY CO2 but big enough to have some room for a good stocking.


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the kribs will rip up the plants as they love to dig....... id go with another type like blue rams or bolivan rams would go good with the plants and they dont really dig........ theres a type of gravel call florite and it works very very well wit plants.......

Great! Another plant person! Just what I needed around here!

Fish - I used to keep kribs in my old 40G tank. They are very pretty fish and fun to watch. I didn't like how they ate my cherry shrimp though. I didn't have any issues with them digging but they never went into any spawning behavior either.

Blue and Bolivan rams are also a good choice as riri1 said. I would also like to add Apistogramma and Curviceps to the list of dwarfs that would work well in a planted tank.

substrates for plants - There are quite a few different products on the market. The one I use is called flourite and is made by seachem. The only issue with this gravel is that you need to rinse it really really well or your tank will look like chocolate milk. I can give you more info on how to deal with the rinsing and filling of the tank later if you decide to go with flourite.

Another good substrate is Eco-Complete. I have not used it in my personal tanks but I have used it at the LFS I used to work at. The nice thing about eco-complete is that you don't need to rinse it. It comes with bacteria already in the bag so the cycle should be much less harsh. A guy I new from the LFS set up a 125G planted discus tank and stocked it the same day without having any issues.

Plants - The types of plants you can grow in an aquarium are dependent on light, fertilizers, and CO2. Have you done any research on these things yet?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Kribs would be ok in that size tank if they were all the same sex. A breeding pair in there would not work. They would do fine with the plants, mine don't bother the plants at all. Personally I would go with the rams over the kribs.

i agree wit Gourami and would pic the rams over the kribs I had 2 pairs in a 55 gallon tank and the dominate pair where sooooooooooooooooooooooo nice looking and i will eventualy setup another very densely planted tank to breed them or i might get the super blues that are availble now........

Well, I don't the kribs would be ideal so I am leaning towards the rams...though I've read they are quite sensitive to water conditions so I will definitely wait till I've got the tank up and running and I've tested it to get a better idea of what water conditions I can maintain for them.

From the research I've done on plants I can tell it's not something I want to get too terribly involved in (yet) so I would like to get some easily maintained, low light plants. I've also read about Flourite and it sounds like a big mess.

Regular gravel and some java fern tied to some driftwood and you'll be golden.

Java fern does great with low light levels, but add some DIY CO2 and it tends to take off!

I kept 5,6 ? kribs and about 20 WCMM in a 20ish gallon tank never saw any fighting. Granted they were young so they may not have reached maturity at the time. They're in a 6'X2' tank now, though being in with a bunch of other fish I've never seen evidence of breeding.


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TurboTurtle - Flourite really can be a mess if you don't do it right. The best way to handle the stuff is to pre-rinse it in a fine mesh net before adding it to the tank. This is the easiest way to remove the clay dust. Just add a few handfuls of gravel to the net and run the garden hose over it until it runs clear. Then repeat until finished.

The next trick is to place a plate in the tank and use that to catch the water as you start filling the tank. You will want to fill the tank really really slow. If you are anything like me you will want to fill it really fast to get the job done but that will just stir things up and make a mess.

If you are at all thinking about going to a more in-depth planted tank it might be a good idea to just start with the good substrate. That way you don't have to take down the tank to change it out. Some low light plants that I am going to suggest would like a good substrate anyway.

Plants for low light - As Babelfish fish said, Java fern attached to rock or driftwood would be pretty easy. Anubias can be used the same way and can handle lower light tanks. Another plant to try are crypts. They are a rooted plant. Most can be grown in low light.

Is your tank a long or high?

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Oops, should have mentioned that it is a 20g high.

I live in an apartment so I have no garden hose, but I might be able to manage something. I will see what the LFS has in stock as far as substrates and go from there. Thanks for the plant recommendations.

I'm having some issues with the tank's hood anyway so I may have the opportunity to buy new lighting for it. I think that would change my options, what would you recommend?

As Wings said, pouring the water in too fast will make a huge mess. You do have to do a pre-rinse of the gravel no matter which type of gravel you go with. I found out the hard way. Like you, I have a tall tank. I found the easiest way to avoid stirring up trouble, was to create a legde of particle board or OSB perpendicular to the top of the tank. Just get a piece of wood board as wide as your bucket and lay it cross-wise on the end of the tank. Fill your bucket with water and place it on top of the ledge. Start your gravel vac in the bucket and place the opposite end into the tank. Let gravity do it's thing. The water will fill the tank slowly without stirring up the flourite. The best part is you can go do other stuff while the bucket is emptying out. Just check on it every 5-10 minutes to see when you need to refill. I do that with my 40 gal tall whenever I do a water change since I'm so short. The tank on the stand is about as tall as me. I have to use a step ladder with this tank!

As far as plants, you can't go wrong with the ones mentioned before by Babel and Wings. Add to that list, Amazon and Brazilian swords and java moss. Unless you want to do constant gardening, don't go with the java moss! That stuff can grow without any light at all. And depending on the fish you get, they'll break it off... On a regular basis, making you fish it from the intake every other day! And once it's in the tank, it's almost impossible to remove. Sorry... did I start ranting?

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Here are a handful of lighting options. In the list are Power Compact (PC), T-5, and T-8 fixtures. For a low light tank you should be some where around 1.5 to 2.5 Watts per Gallon (WPG). Some of the fixtures I listed would put you well above that if you ran both lights. I picked these as an option so that if you want to get more involved with lots of fertilizers and CO2 you have the option to really give the plants some light without going to get another fixture.

I also should mention that you should aim for bulbs that are considered daylight. These bulbs have K rating of about 6,500K. On my 55G I am running PC lights that are half 6,700K and half 10,000K. My plants grow just fine with that.

#1 - This is a T5 light giving you 2.4 WPG. This would be a good fixture for a low light tank but probably wouldn't give you enough light to grow really light demanding plants.

24" x 5-1/2" Freshwater; 48 watt, CD-29698
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+16770&pcatid=16770

#2 and #3 - The next two light are PC lights. Each has two 65 watt bulbs. Running just one bulb would give you 3.25 WPG and running both bulbs would give you 6.5 WPG. These are the two fixtures that give you options to up grade to a more involved system. With just one bulb on you will probably want to supplement CO2 using Flourish Excel.
Freshwater 24", CD-16984
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13733&pcatid=13733
Dual 24", CD-16924
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13637&pcatid=13637

#4 - This is your normal T-8 fixture. It would only give you 1.5 WPG. This would be enough for a very low light slow growing tank. The plus side to this fixture is that bulbs are pretty cheap and available even at places like lowes.
24", CD-93062
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13612&pcatid=13612

I hope this helps!

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Wow, thanks for the lighting advice! A family member was keeping all my old equipment so I'm going to go tomorrow to see what equipment I can find, and then on to the LFS for the rest and the substrate.

I decided to go with Apistogramma Cacatuoides based on my water parameters and what I have read about them. Now I just need to figure who and how many will be going in and I can get things started (want to have enough caves and such for them all).

Apistogramma Cacatuoides are a really neat fish. I would just do a pair of them in that sized tank. You shouldn't have any issues with adding the pleco and a school of small tetras.

Keep us posted on how things are going.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Well, after a few issues I got the tank up and running! I went with a T5 fixture for the light so I've got just under 2 watts per gallon. I also went with the Eco-Complete which was an interesting experience, but I really like the look of it. I'm surprised how little information there is online about cycling with Eco-Complete considering it supposedly already has bacteria. I only have a few java ferns in at this point because the LFSs were all understocked this weekend. I'm looking forward to getting some more tomorrow.

It has actually turned out to be rather difficult to find the cockatoo cichlids...or any dwarf cichlids for that matter. I thought I would scope out potential sources while I was buying everything else, but no one has them (I checked 5 stores). Even many on-line stores are out of stock. The guy at the LFS said they haven't been able to get them for a while now, so I may have to order them online. Has anyone else seem them in stores?

I will get a school of 8 or so neon tetras first, I think, and then see how things go from there.

I think with eco you are going to want to get some fish in there soon to feed the bacteria or you loose the quite cycle thing.

You could also try hooking up with people at a local fish club and find a breeder.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Hi,
I've been away on a very nice vacation.
I suggest that you read this series of articles:
http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/threads/13454.1.htm?45#
which is found in the Planted Aquaria section
of Fish Profiles. It would have shed a floodlight on
many of your questions relating to plants, lights, and
substrates.

The problem with the "tall" or "show" tanks (as they
are also called) is exactly that, their height.
Those that are at or very near 2 feet tall
(24 inches in depth) or more will scatter/absorb the
light as it is directed down through the water
column toward the substrate. The result is that little
of the light energy entering the water's surface will
make it down to the plants at the substrate level.

While "over powering" the tank with more bulbs can
get some more energy down to the substrate, it
generally just creates more algae and a frustrated
fish keeper.

When dealing with a "show" or "tall" tank, the easiest way
to get the light down to the substrate and the plants is to
change the "K rating" of the bulbs by increasing them from
a normal of 5-6700K to between 8,000K to 10,000K. I would
use only "Daylight" or "Sunlight" labeled bulbs. As one
increases the Kelvin rating of the bulb, the blue part of
the light spectrum increases and the blue will penetrate
further into the water column remaining intact.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Time for an update, I think.

As far as plants go, I've got crypts, java ferns, java moss, anubias, and some amazon swords (though I hear the pleco will eat those). Strangely enough, the java ferns and moss don't seem to be doing as well as everything else, but at this point I'm just pleased that anything is still alive. I boiled the wood I got before I put it in and I have had no issues with tannins, though the pH was raised slightly for a couple of days there.

I got a school of neons last week and they seem to be doing well so far, though I think I may be missing one. They've stopped schooling as much so it is hard to count them all at once. I don't have a test for ammonia, but I've got low levels of nitrites and nitrates. I also found a local breeder of the cockatoos, so I can get them whenever the tank is ready.

So thanks for the help everyone, especially Wingsdlc. I'm really pleased with this tank thus far.

In low light low co2 java fern and java moss are generally pretty slow growers. Just tie them onto the wood firmly but not too tightly (in the case of the fern) as you don't want to cut into the rhizome. The moss...well I've never had much luck getting it to stay anywhere but my filter intake

Give them some time, so long as they're not dying and no ones eating them, they should do pretty good.


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