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hello peeps, Happy new year!

My wife bought the above tank as my x'mas present and we just joined the rank of fish parents about 3 days ago. At petland they said its better to start the tank without any plants so we only got a 5 lb gravel and air pump along with 7 regular mollies as starting fish. (about 1" long each) We are wondering if that's really the way to go since petland is known for its "un-professional-ness" when it comes to pets.

one of the mollies died soon after we got home, one died the next day and one died today after gave birth to 6 fries. (omg, already? what should we do?)

So here comes the questions:
1. how many fish can we have really, we are aiming for small fish about 1" and maybe an alge eater and some shrimp if we can find some.

2. how much plants can we have? She wants the tank be "as green as possible" with variety of plants. ie moss balls, some grassy looking plants and some sword types alone with string looking ones. (sorry we are quite not in the door of fish world yet)

3. what should we do for the fries? atm i have them in this small mesh about 4 cube inch suspended in the tank just to separate them from the remaining 4 large ones and feeding them with crushed flake food.

Please give us some advice, thank you guys in advance.

Congrats on the tank, sorry about the advice you got from your store.

First off, plants are GREAT in a new tank! Why? Because they help with the cycling process. Now that I've got you completely lost lets try and figure a few things out!

A 3 gallon tank is very very very small. Small is good if you haven't got a lot of space, but they've been known to be very difficult to keep even by experienced fishkeepers.

The cycling process in a nutshell:

1. Waste accumulates in the fish tank. This comes from fish waste, decomposing plant matter, and excess food that decomposes. This creates ammonia. Ammonia is very bad for fish and in high enough levels will kill them. Depending on which fish they may be able to take higher levels of ammonia or not. Ones that can are called 'cycle hardy' or just 'hardy'. Even if they are labeled as such they very often suffer and die during the cycling process. Some of these fish are zebra danios, white cloud mountain minnows, goldfish.

2. Ammonia builds up until bacteria form to eat it and convert it into nitrIte. NitrIte is also bad for fish, however once it builds up in high enough numbers another bacteria will come along and eat it. Throughout this process (3-4 weeks) your fish are in a very stressful environment and may or may not survive.

3. NitrIte has built up enough that one more form of bacteria comes along and eats it turning it into nitrAte. Most all fish can handle a given ammount of nitrate. Some of the more delicate ones can only handle a small amount, other so called 'hardy' fish can handle a lot more. There's only two ways to remove nitrAtes from the water. The easiest, most common, and necessary one is to do partial water changes. The other is to have A LOT of plants and only a few fish.

Not sure why your store said plants are bad, given enough lighting (usually 2+watts per gallon of flouro light) most plants do quite well and will actually use ammonia and nitrates from the tank, giving a better living environment for the fish!



So. Back to your tank.
First off you're very overstocked already. If possible take all except a few males back. If you can I'd take all the mollies back and exchange it for ONE male betta. Female mollies are likely to overpopulate the tank even without males present. As for the fry, they may or may not survive the cycling process. You're putting a lot of ammonia into their environment by having so many fish. The most mollies I'd want in that tank is 3 males, and even that is pushing it. I'd not suggest any algae eaters, don't get algae and you wont need one . There are some shrimp out there, really I'd suggest switching the mollies for a betta and then look into a shrimp.

As for the plants, you can have as many as you can fit and keep alive. First thing to look at would be how much lighting you have.

Hope I didn't confuse you too much, I'm sure you'll have more come along to confuse you more Welcome to the site!

^_^

Happy New Year to you too! Welcome to FP.

You started out in the hobby like so many of us did, me included: a really small tank and too many fish. I started with a 1 gallon and stuffed it chock full of fish. Needless to say, they all died.

First thing is first: are you on well water or city water? City water needs to be dechlorinated with a good conditioner or all of your fish will die in a hurry.

If it wasn't chlorine, your fish probably died because of ammonia poisoning. When fish are in the water, they are constantly excreting ammonia, which is horribly toxic. But fear not! There are bacteria in the tank which makes ammonia less toxic. There is one kind of bacteria in the tank which converts ammonia into something called nitrite, which is slightly less toxic than ammonia, and then another type of bacteria converts the nitrite into nitrate, which is much less toxic that the previous two.

These bacteria are not present in tap water in any large quantities, simply because they don't have a continuous food source that a fish tank could give them. It takes a while for the tank to build up bacterial cultures large enough to instantly convert ammonia --> nitrite --> nitrate. The time it takes for these cultures to form is known as the cycle, and during that time fish are in danger of dying from ammonia poisoning. Now, nitrate is still toxic to fish, and has to be removed periodically with regular partial water changes.

Another point to consider is acclimating your fish. Plopping fish directly into your tank from the LFS is very stressful to fish just because your tank is probably at a different temperature, pH, hardness, etc. from the ones at the store. It is always a good idea to float the bag in your tank for around 15 minutes to let the temperatures equalize, and then open the bag and scoop in a 1/4 cup of water every 10 minutes for 30 or 40 minutes. That way, the fish will get used to your water and you can safely put them in.

Now, onto your stocking. Mollies are wonderful fish and I love them, but unfortunately, they are inappropriate for smaller tanks. They are chunky fish that put out a lot of waste. I'd say they should be in nothing less than a 10 gallon, with 15 or 20 being even more ideal. The only fish really appropriate for a 3 gallon is either a single male betta or a trio of guppies. I'd try to take the remaining fish back to the LFS for store credit, because they're going to die quickly in your tank.

I can't really help you with the plants. Sorry. I'm sure some plant-geeks will be in here shortly.

As far as the fry are concerned...well, I'd try to take those back too. The LFS may not take them for credit, but they'd probably take them for free. Just like the adults, they will eventually get too big for that tank if they make it that long. In general, fry are a lot more sensitive than
adults when it comes to water quality.

There are some great FAQs to be found under the FAQ tab up top that I recommend you read, especially the "Your 1st FW Aquarium", "Beginner Fish", "Nitrogen Cycle", and "Chemistry". It's a lot, but those concepts are all very important. They don't seem to be working now, but I'm going to post a question in the Feedback forum to see what's going on with them and hopefully get them back soon.

Edit: Curse you, Babel!

thanks for all your suggestions in such short period of time. OK, so we debunked the myth that people knows stuff if they work in that environment is always right.

so apparently, my neighbor also has a tank which is 50gallon, should i just bum him some tank water to shorten the cycle process? as for the mollies, i will ask petland for store credits to exchange for a betta or a pair of danios. (my wife said she wants pairs) i might just keep the frys since my wife loves them (jan 1st babies!)Yes, they do poop a lot, continuously.
the plants are extremely limited in petland, might take a while to find something that suits us.

since we are lowering the fish count, can i just take out the airpump? its quite noisy even its for a 5gallon tank. (betta can breath from surface right?)

more details about the water condition, we are using tap water (brooklyn nyc) but we added cycle, salt, and aqua plus to condition it before adding to the tank.

does anyone happen to live in the new york city knows a good place to purchase live plants?

thanks again

Hi,
Gosh, Welcome To Fish Profiles!

The Eclipse aquarium package comes with a light and filter.
I don't know if the package also included gravel and a
heater. Everyone has pretty much covered allot of what
you need to know. As far as the air pump is concerned,
it is completly unnecessary. The bio-wheel filter, as
it runs, will provide all the aeration and current in
the tank that is necessary.

Pairs of fish are an idea, but, live-bearers are sorta like
the proverbial bunnies, you have a pair, then really soon,
you have many more than a pair. Which is great - But -
you only have three gallons of water to keep them in.

Because of the small size of the tank, you really need
to restrict yourselves to a number of small fish, or just
a pair of larger fish. "Small" meaning fish about an inch
to an inch and a half (nose to beginning of the tail fin).
And "Large" fish meaning a max of 2-3 inches.
With fish such as the Cardinal Tetras, a "small" fish for
instance, you could house a small school of between 5
and 10 fish. With the large fish 2-3 inches (FULLY grown)
you should only house, perhaps, 2 pair.

You probably won't be able to grow many of the plants
you are dreaming about because of the light.
If it comes with screw in, incandescent, light bulbs,
you should immediately throw them away and replace
it (them) with screw in compact fluorescent bulbs.
Make sure that they are labeled SUNLIGHT or DAYLIGHT
on their packaging. Don't - purchase any ones
that have "warm" or "cool" in their names like
warm white.
The Sun or Day light bulbs furnish the "correct" type of
light that the plants need.

Nearly any local fish store sells plants. The trick is
to purchase ones that will live within that small tank.
Folks with small tanks usually stick with small plants.
Most of the small plants are termed "carpet"
or "foreground" Plants. Most potted plants will have a
tag stuck to them telling you about the plant and how
big it grows, and how much light it needs. If not, walk
over to where the store has its books, and look for the
plant in one of their plant books. Eventually owning
one, or several different ones, will become a "must."
A good library is really great to have at ones finger
tips. Use the same idea when purchasing fish, if there
is not enough information available, walk over to their
books and look up the fish you are considering, read
about them, and then decide if they will fit in your
tank.
Unfortunately nearly all of this type of plant
require very bright light as nearly all of them grow
naturally, out in the bright sunlight without shade.
Look for foreground, or mid level plants for your tank.
Large plants such as amazon swords or many of the crypts
will outgrow that tank in weeks.

Consider the fish when purchasing plants and planting the
tank. For instance, if they are a schooling fish, that
are active, you would not want to cram the fish in
with lots of plants. Instead, you would want to leave
them swimming room so that as a group, they can
swim around the tank. That means that small plants
and/or some stem plants around the back and sides of
the tank would be better. They can't school and
swim through a forest of plants.

Just some "more" things to think about...

Hope we all helped!

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Welcome to FP!

Unfortunately, bacteria from the cycle primarily live on hard surfaces rather than free-floating in the water, such as gravel or inside filter cartridges on the high-surface area filter floss. However, the product Cycle does contain bacteria; I'd just dose your tank with that. Keep track of the ammonia and nitrites to make sure they don't go too high, and do a water change if they do.

I'm not sure how much I would trust certain fishes with baby fish, as they are quite easily eaten by larger fish.

Pairs are theoretically a good idea since your tank is so small; however, danios are schooling fish and are much happier in groups. In the wild many schooling fish exist in groups of hundreds or thousands, but in the aquarium they may be happy in numbers as low as about six. Unfortunately, if you keep fewer than about six then many schooling fish are nervous and unhappy.

Salt is unnecessary; this isn't a saltwater tank. I'd cut out the salt.

I am not sure if you can take out that air pump; some kinds of filters use the air pump as the method to create current through the filter, and so the air pump is necessary for the filter to work. Unfortunately I am not familiar with these small tank kits so I don't know what they come with.

Assuming that the air pump does not power your filter, then you may not need it if you plant your tank well. Some plants that are good for beginners are Vallisneria (long and reed-like), Anubias (big leaves), Java Fern (long, pointed leaves), and Java Moss (fine-leaved mossy plants that's nigh impossible to kill). Some types of these plants may grow too large for your tank, so do some reading up on this. These plants are also common so I'd wager they won't be too hard to find for you.

--------------------------------------------
The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

my neighbor also has a tank which is 50gallon, should i just bum him some tank water to shorten the cycle process?

Bacteria does not really live in the water. What you should bum from your neighbor is a ziplock baggy full of gravel from his tank. Put this in a pantyhose and drop in the back of your tank near the filter input. Bacteria lives in porous surfaces, espescially filter media and gravel. If your neighbor is willing, scrounge a used filter sponge from his filter to put in yours. This will help the most.

or a pair of danios. (my wife said she wants pairs)

Danios are a larger, 2 inch+ fish that is extremely active. These fish need large spaces to run in. Danios are also schooling fish, meaning they need to kept in groups of 6 or more. Anything less is incredibly unhealthy for them. I would Not recommend Danios to anyone with a tank smaller than 20 gallons.

more details about the water condition, we are using tap water (brooklyn nyc) but we added cycle, salt, and aqua plus to condition it before adding to the tank.

First of all, dont use Salt. This is a freshwater tank and salt is not necessary for freshwater fish. In fact it can be very detrimental to the health of some fish. Keep it around for cleaning nets in a soak, and for treatment of specific illnesses such as true fungus.

Cycle is a Bunk product. Save your money and dont buy it next time. I have tried and tried this product and despite daily testing and large additions of cycle, this product never ever did anything to help my tanks cycle. Invest the money you would spend on it next time on a Master Test Kit.

1. how many fish can we have really, we are aiming for small fish about 1" and maybe an alge eater and some shrimp if we can find some.

In a 3g tank you are extremely limited. I would say you could have 1 small fish in there. A single male or female betta fish is about all you can put in there.
Almost all Algae Eaters grow extremely large - common Plecos up to 24 inches, Chinese algae eaters up to 12 inches.

My best possible advice to you ? Unpack the tank, clean it, and return it to petland for a refund. Take the money from the expensive eclipse tank, and buy a 20g glass tank kit with filter, heater, and other equipment.
A 20g tank would allow you an easier time of learning the hobby, would be easier to care for and maintain, and would allow you to keep a few fish, rather than just a single one. Perhaps a school of Danios your wife would like.

Tiny tanks, 5g or less, are incredibly difficult to maintain, stabilize, cycle, and keep that way. For a beginner, I always recommend going and buying the single most largest tank you can afford and fit in your house. My best recommendation of all for a complete newbie to fishkeeping? A 55g tank. Contrary to what you may think, bigger is easier, bigger is better, and way simpler to maintain, care for, and cycle and stabilize. Big tanks allow for more options, are harder to crash, as they have significantly more volume. Basically, a big tank allows for many more errors than a tiny little tank.

Good Luck.


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Thanks again for speedy replies.

Eclipse 3 has a bio wheel built in, the air pump was petland's suggestion. Life will be a lot quieter without the pump especially in our small apartment.

The light that came with the unit is aT5 Lamp for Eclipse Sytem3 6W 9 In.

seems i need to get some ammonia and nitrites testing kits.

still looking for some plants, is online order reliable?

edit - i wish i have the space for 55g tank or even a 20g, our apartment is really. tiny. with a minimalist living with me, its simply too big. (hence the 3g tank... anything else is too big, even 6 or 10g)

thanks

Ya, airpumps are quite noisy, if it has the built in filter you should be fine without it, check in on the fish each morning before you turn the lights on to see if they're gasping at the surface. If you see this, especially during the cycling process, stick the air pump back in for a bit. It doesn't need to be in all the time, but it helps increase surface area which helps speed up the exchange of gasses.

There's a great FAQ section on this site, it's currently down but Adams working on it so check back in a bit. There's also lots and lots of posts with great info that you can stuff your brain with. Here's one

As for the test kits....get yourself a master test kit. They're cheaper in the long run and have everything you need. I've used Big Als when I was in the states and never had a problem with them.

I know there are some good plant ordering sites out there, cant think of any off the top of my head. You can try a post in the planted forum for tips on that .

On the pairs issue. Scratch the zebra danios, they do tend to get rather mean if there's only a few of them. Besides they're really fast swimmers and get too large for a 3 gallon tank, it'd be like putting sticking a 2 year old hopped up on a sugar high in a port a potty for the rest of their lives .

^_^

Ordering plants online: depends on the retailer, I am right now not very pleased and waiting for the merchant I was dealing with to send what I had actually ordered. Aquariumplants.com is a very good company, though. However, as Frank already pointed out, you will be very limited with plants due to the size of the tank. Ordering online is better suited for people that want a lot of plants as every order comes with hefty shipment charges! Financially, I don't think it is a good idea to do this. There are plenty of excellent fish stores in NYC. I don't know where you are located and NYC is huge, but it still will be less expensive to hop in the car and look around than ordering. If all fails, there is 'Aquarium Adventures' located on Long Island and this store has a very nice selection of plants. They also have a web site.

Hope this helps

thanks again for all your inputs.
seems like indeed the 3g is going to be a challenge, but hell, i will try it. (if i fail, more a reason to convince the boss for a bigger tank)

again, happy new year!

ps. the dark Chii is sure cute. sorry, old anime freak habit.

Thanks acnyc !

Ya a 3 gallon can be a challenge, especially if you try and do too much. However since you want it very well planted go that route, and only keep a few small fish. I seem to remember someone had a very nice nano planted with some cherry barbs in it.
Keith has a great little planted tank with a betta and company.

Hopefully this one won't fail, but you'll both be so caught up with the addiction that you'll get a bigger tank anyway!

Keep us posted with how everything goes.

^_^

Hi there!!!

If you want a bigger tank, with a very small space taken up, i would suggest Hex tanks. A 10g Hex is an awesome tank, although there isnt as much swimming room as a 10g stantard. The larger amount of water will let you have more mistakes, and make things easier for you. THe problem being, that hex tanks are lacking in surface area on the top, which allows for less gas exchange (Co2 out and O2 in) there fore less fish than a standtard tank of that gallon size. Also, there arent too many fish that swim up and down, rather than side to side, so finding one will be a problem. On the other hand, you can have a layering of fish, especially nice in a 20g or similarly sized hexs. Plants will be a bit of an issue though, as the light (WPG) is reduced in size (less length in flourescent bulb = less wattage put out = less WPG = less amount of choice for plants) and the hex's tallness will absorb the more of the light before it reaches the bottom, where the plants reside. THe only low light tallish plants you can have are Vallisneria sp., water sprite, water wisteria, and most floating plants.

I would suggest you get a eclipse corner 5 system, and put it in the corner of, lets say, the kitchen counter. Or you could just get a regular 5g or Eclipse 5g tank, and put it in a low traffic area. This will allow you to have a lot more fish than a 5g, selectionwise. You should look into making a small, Nano type of tank, with small plants and small fish, and shrimp. You could put some Kuhli loaches in a 5g, along with a betta, and a Cryptocorne plant (Preferrably one of the smaller ones, but i dunno which ones are small) or some wisteria and water sprite. Look for more fish stores, preferrably one large, well known petstore like Petsmart, which has a ok to nice selection, or some really good family owned pet stores.

Finnally, about the fry, i would ask your neighbour to raise the fry for you in his tank. If he dosent want to, then you could exchange the fry for store credit and then go on from there. If all else fails, you can just feed the fry to the other fish, as this is natural, and what is usually done to the fry of livebearers. Live bearers are good for the begginner if he or she wants to breed, but bad if they dont have the room to raise them. It may sound kind of cruel at first, but it sometimes must be done. Try to give it back to the store first.

Good luck, and welcome to FP!!! Dont worry, a few months on this site, and youll become well learned on the wonderful hobby of Fishkeeping!

/:'

><> ~=!Vote Today!=~ <><
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So sneaky you dont like Cycle? I have always had great results with it. That and Biozyme. But thats just me.

For plants for the 3 gallon you could get Java Fern, and Anubias Nanna, I would get the Anubias Nanna Petite if you can find it, both of these plants do well in a small tank, and and dont need much light. And if I remember from the last time I was in a Petland, they do have them in stock. Just remember that both of these plants are rhizome plants (The leaves come from a tube looking thing that runs parallel to the gravel.) Don't put the rhizome into the gravel and if possible tie the Java Fern to a rock you can usually find the Anubias already tied to a piece of DW in a tank somewhere in the aquatics area. If not find a piece small enough to fit the tank and tie the Nanna onto it.

Amazon swords need at least a ten gallon to work long term.

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