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New tank 3 weeks ago. Tank has cycled, i.e. I am detecting climbing nitrates. Funny thing was I never detected nitrites during the cycle. I assume I am making them since I have nitrate, but they must be getting eaten as quickly as they are made.

Problem: ammonia is out of control. I assume eventually my biofilter will catch up, but I'm looking for "quick fixes" for now.

I've researched some on the internet and I get conflicting suggestions on everything, i.e. change water, don't change water, add ammo-lock, don't add chemical fixatives, use ion exchage resins, don't use, etc... sheesh.

I've been performing 25%-33% water changes every day and adding Ammo-lock. I also have the high tray in my canister filter filled with ion-exchange resin. After H2O change ammonia drops down to ~4ppm or so (I assume NH3 is 0ppm with the ammo-lock), but it is back to ~8ppm the next day.

Q: Anyone have any advice other than what I have been doing? And/Or can anyone explain why there is so much conflicting advice? I assume there are arguments for both sides, but with out knowing the reasoning behind the advice, it makes it hard on relative newcomers such as myself. (not exactly new, but been out of aquariums for last 10 years, starting up again.)

Fish are "OK" considering... maybe a bit stressed by all the ruckus everyday, but they look fine, act fine, eat well, etc. But I am very concerned this could change quickly.

Thanks in advance.

Your tanks ammonia may actually be lower than what you are getting in your reading. If the water has ammo lock in it you will get falso readings of ammonia. I also think it may be lower because the fish sound like they are doing alot better than they should be in such high concentrations of ammonia.

Heres what I would do.

Do a water change and dont add any ammo lock to the water.
Do an all round water test. The only time I would change water out is if the fish are looking distressed or sick or if the nitrate gets above 20ppm.
In the mean time reduce feedings to every second day, just a tiny amount so that the biological filter has a chance to catch up on the extra ammonia.
Add some extra aeration to the tank to increase oxygen levels. (ie airstone)

Good luck and keep us updated.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Listen to Lindy,

She knows what she is talkin about!


Pete

20 GALLON LONG CURRENTLY EMPTY ~~~~ 10 GALLON W/ STRIPPED CONVICT

Welcome back to the hobby, and to Fishprofiles.com

If you show 8ppm and no fish are dead and dying, then it's the Ammo-Lock. You can get false positive readings on many testers. I had that experience with Ammo-Lock when I cycled my first tank and used the stuff. Fish were happy as could be despite ammonia readings off the chart. It took about 9-10 days for this reading to come down on its own, once I switched over to a product like Stress Coat or Chlor-X (any product that focuses on removing chlorine and chloramine and not neutralizing ammonia).

Strangely enough, I had a similar experience with water I had bottled from my tap and treated with Bio-Safe. My betta tank, 100% clean water, had an ammonia reading of 8ppm. How could that be? I tested another bottle I had treated the day before and sure enough, it was the bio-safe. I ran a second test and re-confirmed it. Another bottle, where I had used Stress Coat did not show any ammonia at all - same water source.

Here's more from our FAQ. I'll provide the text here, followed by the link since it was buried so deep.

As a final caution, several commercial products (e.g., ``Amquel'' or ``Ammo-Lock'') safely neutralize ammonia's toxicity. Amquel does not remove the ammonia, it simply neutralizes its toxicity. Biological filtration is still needed to convert the (neutralized) ammonia to nitrite and nitrate. Thus, adding Amquel causes the ammonia produced by the fish to be neutralized instantly, yet still allows the nitrogen cycle to proceed. Using Amquel during the cycling phase has one significant drawback, however. Amquel (and similar products) may cause ammonia test kits to give false readings, making it difficult to determine exactly when cycling has completed. See the TEST KIT SECTION for details.

http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/begin-cycling.asp. The above was taken from under the title heading: Minimizing Fish Stress During Cycling (2nd paragraph).

Did you by any chance add New and Improved Cycle or another "bacterial starter/additive"? If so, it could explain the lack of nitrites seen during the cycle and the rapid onset of nitrates.

How are the fish?

Hope this helps

Diane


Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Jan-2005 19:59

Thanks all. Lindy, as per your advice, I performed just a water change of ~25% last night. I did not add ammo-lock this time. I did not feed. Rechecked today: pH as expected at 7.8, NH3/NH4 still at 8ppm+ (my test only reads to 8ppm), Nitrite 0 and Nitrate looks like it might have climbed a little from 5ppm to 7.5ppm since the last test yesterday. I will keep an eye on them and only do water changes if they look stressed or if Nitrate goes about 20ppm as per your suggestion.

I believe my aeration is probably OK for bacteria growth, so I did not increase, but I’ll elaborate on setup in case I need to be corrected. 55 gallon tank, two Rena 400’s, one runs three lift tubes for UGF, the other runs 12” of airstone. Fluval 304 canister w/output slightly above water line to disrupt water surface. Emperor dual biowheel also slightly agitates surface. I could easily add another pump and airstone if you all believe I could benefit from more aeration, if even just for a little while.

Cory_di, your testing results of water w/bio-safe is interesting. Yes, I did add Cycle. I was under the impression I would still see a nitrite spike, but I guess not (at least in my case.) Thanks for the FAQ. The fish are “OK.” I wouldn’t say great considering my biofilter can’t keep up with them yet, but they seem about normal for Africans. Pretty much hang out around the bottom by their caves, occasionally chase a passing tankmate, digging some, fins are not clamped, gill breathing looks normal, come to the middle-top of tank when I walk by (begging for food), etc.

Cheers.

I should mention that when I had that experience with Ammo-Lock 2, where the tank went up to 8ppm ammonia, I was doing 30% water changes daily, sometimes twice at 12 hours apart, with water that did not have Ammo-Lock in it. It still took some 9-10 days to stop reacting. I mean it stayed at 8ppm +, then dropped in a day and a half after the stuff became no longer active. Fish were oblivious. Also, it stayed at this level all the while the tank went started and passed the nitrite phase. I had 15ppm nitrates but ammonia was off the scale . My impression is that when you get a false-positive after using Amquel or Ammo-Lock, it is not going to be a tiny reading, its going to be off the scale. Its the first question I ask people who show nitrates, yet off the scale ammonia readings - did they use one of those products.

I believe that Hagen's Cycle is biased towards bacteria that consume nitrite moreso than ammonia, which would explain it. I usually recommend Cycle for people having a nitrite problem and bio-spira for those with ammonia issues, if they can find it.

It's too bad you didn't go without the UGF this time around. I understand they are a bit of work to clean out. That Emporer with dual wheels, is it the 400? That, plus your cannister would have been adequate and never require that the tank be broken down. A friend of mine who owns a pet shop says he has to break his tanks down yearly due to the UGFs.

Did you have cichlids before? Keeping fish once again - it's kind of like riding a bike, isn't it? I've got a cousin who use to keep gorgeous planted tanks back in the 60's and 70's. He got married, had a family and there went the tanks . I just met up with him recently and he wants back in the hobby now that the kids are off in college. He and I are going to meet and review all kinds of things that have changed. He doesn't even know what a bio-wheel is. UGF is all he knew.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 02-Jan-2005 22:54

Cori_di, interesting. I just a few minutes ago I looked at a thread on how Ammo-Lock works which was inconclusive. My prior suspicion was that the Ammo-lock was somehow stunting the growth of the biofilter, or it was seriously messing up the total ammonia test. I realized the “locked” ammonia will show on my test, but 8ppm+ still seemed too high for both NH3 and NH4+. I was very confused and concerned because the only test I have is showing 8ppm+ and I had no idea how much was NH3 and how much was NH4 and it didn’t seem to ever go down even after large frequent water changes. This whole mess started on day 5. Ammonia was 0.5ppm and I had one death, fearing new tank syndrome, I did a knee jerk reaction and started adding ammo-lock that day. After I added the ammo-lock, the next day my ammonia was 2.0, then 4.0 and by day three was 8.0+ and has stayed there since, but no more deaths. I couldn’t figure out how the ammonia grew so quickly considering it took five days to get to 0.5ppm. Your example puts my mind at ease somewhat. I will “cautiously ignore” the ammonia test for now and base my maintenance reactions (i.e. water change) on fish behavior for the short term.

Yes, like a bike… but I feel like I need the training wheels and maybe a helmet and goggles too. I learned the hard way a few days ago to not plug the canister filter back in until the hoses are attached . The curious cats also learned that lesson with me – he he.

So much has changed. Your cousin was out longer than me, but I can relate to the feeling of being a newbie all over again. The UGF selection was do to my lack of research and “advice” from a pet “super store.” My mistake. But back when I had fish before, UGF and hang on Whisper filters was all I knew about so I got the UGF and Emperor. Boy how things have changed. I’m really impressed with the filter technology of today compared to what I used ~10 years ago. Recently, I’ve read about UGF, reverse flow, problems, etc… If the Fluval 304 with bio media and Emperor 400 are enough biofilter, I’ll just remove the UGF the first time it gives me trouble.

My tank from long ago was a community with a few cichlids. My goal is to keep a nice mix of smaller (4”- 6” when fully grown) lake Malawi cichlids. I really like the color, markings and behavior of cichlids. Local tap water is perfect for them, pH at 7.8-8.0 and very hard. I have another couple of tanks in storage. I just set up tank #2 a week ago with the same setup as tank #1 (Yes, I’m addicted again) and it will be for Amazons; hopefully discus by this summer if I think I’m up to the challenge. Tank is running now on tap water with a couple of tetras for load. Tank is making nitrites, but no nitrate yet. I’m waiting for my RO unit to show up before I get too serious on Amazons with that tank.

Thanks again for your help….Cheers.


Last edited by johnw3 at 03-Jan-2005 01:59

Your experience is almost identical to mine with the ammonia and the timeline as to how it raised was similar. I used it once and that was it - no amount of water changed would alter the value, but rather time. Then, it came crashing down almost as fast. Those fish are not very cycle hardy as far as I know and I can't see them surviving a true 8ppm ammonia spike, especially if one died early on. Those bacterial starters will make New Tank Syndrome a thing of the past. Thankfully, the best starter of all, Bio-Spira is back on the market, but a little harder to find. I strongly suggest calling around and seeing if you have a store near you that carries it.

For an example, you know how much waste goldfish produce. I started a 36 gallon bowfront and bought 3, 2-inch fancy goldfish which are to move later into a 125. I had an emporer 280 running. I put bio-spira in the tank one day after adding the fish (to make sure there was ammonia for the bacteria to eat). The results were stunning:

Ammonia peaked at 0.25 a few days later, nitrite never showed up, and I had low levels of nitrates (less than 5) on day 3 already. The ammonia went to zero the like on day 4 and stayed there with nitrite, and the nitrates continued to rise. I got to 10ppm nitrates at about the 10 day mark. How's that for cycling?

I've since used it to introduce new fish into quarantine tanks that were not cycled. Using a sponge filter I just opened the packet and let the sponge soak it in. Nitrates within 3 days and never seen ammonia or nitrite. This was a 10 gallon with 6 habrosus cories (small at about 1/2 inch).
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I know you didn't ask, but just a little off-topic:

About filters, there is something you may want to know about, in the event of any kind of power failure.

If you search the Marineland booklet, you will find that they suggest unplugging the filter in any power outage. When power resumes, and if it was one hour or more, you will want to pull it off the back when power returns, dump the stagnant, noxious water, give it a rinse then reinstall and refill before plugging back in. Otherwise, it can spew all kinds of stuff from nitrites, to hydrogen sulfide and deadly bacteria back into the tank.

This is true of any filter and one of the challenges with UGFs. When oxygenated water is cut off in any closed area, the good bacteria consume the remaining bacteria giving way to anaerobic (bad) bacteria. For this reason, you may want to consider runningn an airpump like this on your UGF:

[link=http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8120&N=2004+113402]http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8120&N=2004+113402" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Before spending money on investing in this, you may want to make a post in technical tinkering to find out if anyone uses one and how well it works.

I have several Penn-Plax B-11 battery operated air pumps. I don't know if they are strong enough to run a UGF that deep, but maybe. This model ran for four days on two D batteries when I tested it and lasted for 2 days on a real test during the big blackout. I found the Hagen models less useful, interms of output.

[link=http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/skus/ap/APPP-SAB11.asp?E+scstore]http://www.mops.ca/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/skus/ap/APPP-SAB11.asp?E+scstore" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

That friend of mine who owns a fish store runing all UGF's had a sad experience. When the big black out hit, he was able to save much of his stock with battery operated air pumps, but not all. He lost some fish, but like the tsunami ravaged areas, he began having massive losses in the days and weeks that followed the return of power. He lost two gorgeous oscars that were in a large tank with UGF's. They sickened soon after power returned and steadily got worse until they succumbed about a month later. Local fish stores reported that people had heavy losses because they did not do what Marineland suggests and simply allowed their filters to go on without dumping that water. I even dump the filter cartridge, or remove it during the outage, rinse it gently in tank water, and drop it into the tank where it too can pick up oxygenated water. Ditto with biowheels to keep them moist.

I’d agree that my fish would not survive more than a day at a true 8ppm ammonia spike. Considering I’ve been reading 8ppm+ for the last 20 days or so, and no deaths during this ~20 day period, I’m 99% sure I’m really not at 8ppm. This has only added to my confusion and panic since I really don’t know my free ammonia levels. I’ll be pleased once this tank cycles. I really don’t want to lose another fish as I’m starting to get attached to the ones I have.

Cycle in 10 days… that would have been nice. I’m on day 33. I called the three LFSs, no one carries FW Bio-Spira. I could try Omaha, NE (I live in Lincoln) which is only 45 minutes away, but the roads are glare ice at the moment and just getting home from work will be an adventure. I suppose there is always mail order.

Thanks for the info on filters. I never realized the bacteria cultures went haywire that quickly. The more I hear about UGFs, the more I’m convinced I should ditch mine since it sounds like my other filters can handle my bio load and are easier to maintain.

UGF's definitely have their value and I've contemplated one for a 5 gallon betta tank that I really need a low flow for. Add some pre-filters and that would be great. If I went that route, I would use that battery operated backup pump that kicks in at the onset of power failure.

Bio-Spira was one of the very best bacterial starters on the US market. Then, it got so popular they (Marineland) ran out . We went without Bio-Spira for about 6 months. Now, in the fish magazines they are advertising "we're back!". When it first came out, they offered free refigerators to stores that would sell the stuff. Novel idea that worked.

I just wish they would market it in chain stores where many people frequent. It is usually the smaller, family-owned stores that carry it. You can buy it online somewhere. The $11.95 pouch I have in my fridge will treat a 29 gallon once, but that is all that is needed and they don't have you adding it again and again. I keep on in there because it was so hard to find and in my first year of fishkeeping, I had minicycles to deal with, quarantine tanks, new stock being added. I would just add a pouch, and no New Tank Syndrome deaths - not even one.

Update on the tank for anyone who may read this thread looking for help.

It has been about 14 days since I started this thread. I followed the suggestions of not adding Ammo-lock and only changing water if fish looked stressed or if nitrate was above 20ppm. I changed ~25% of the water 14 days ago again today. I ran a full check on the water every day. Occasionally I'd see a small blip (0.5 ppm) of nitrite, but ammonia was still maxed on my test at 8ppm. Three days ago it looked like maybe ammonia was a tad under 8ppm and nitrite was around 1ppm. Next day, ammonia wsa at 4ppm and nitrite at 5ppm. Then 2ppm and 2ppm respectively and today I'm reading 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite. Bizzare.

This biofilter takeoff or rapid drop in ammonia seems similar to what CoryDi described.

Only one loss out of nine fish. A electric yellow chiclid went to the big tank in the sky. He would never eat and since all the other fish were fine including another electric yellow, I don't belive its death was from the cycle, but I could be wrong.

One other note, my pH went nuts during this period. I started at ~8.0 and at one point my pH went as low as 6.4. It is back up to about where it should be at 7.8. Water here has a GH around 300ppm and KH around 250. Something saturated my buffer for the pH to drop that low. Not sure what... maybe the Nitrite? The low pH peak and nitrite peak seeme d loosely connected when I did my measurements.


Thanks all.

Hi john,
Glad to hear things are getting back on track with the tank. Now you can start enjoying the fish instead of stressing about ugly ammonia readings.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Glad all is well. Not sure what happened with the pH. Not unless your water comes out at really low pH (from compressed gases in the water supply), then rises. Seems unlikely to go that far. You can check by doing a test of tap water, then repeating with the same water after it has bubbled overnight. See if it rises, drops or stays the same.

Just read this thread. Great advice Cory, I was aware of the false ammonia readings that you could get from AmmoLock . I didn't realize that the readings would persist for so many days. I'll file that info in my database. John, thank you for confirming Cory's experience.

Someone indicated that John should refrain from water changes in this thread. It was the only advice that I disagree with. I'm a proponent of water changes, the larger and the more frequent the better for fish.

John e-mail me if you decide to go with SA fish as you probably do not need the RO to maintain them unless you want to breed.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Oddly enough, I can use products like ammo-lock, Prime, Amquel (+) on any of my tanks now that they are cycled, and there is no false ammonia reading. So, it must have something to do with an abundance of the bad ammonia that makes the false positive linger. Maybe the ammonia is truly there, but in the less toxic form and that's why we don't see the fish suffering. Beats me, but I do know that false-positive readings are off the chart, lingers in spite of water changes and then suddenly drops.
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I'm in agreement on water changes - the more the merrier, but I like to limit it to 30% max at any one time, with no greater than a +/- 1F to 1.5F overal tank temp change. Exception being discus.

However, I'll qualify this: If someone is in the habit of doing large scale water changes frequently, then it is fine. It is when someone comes along that does a large scale water change on a tank that hasn't had one in a while that can be disastrous. I think it is mainly pH shock on the large changes, since pH drops as nitrates rise high between lengthy breaks. This cannot occur in tanks where large volumes of water are being replace frequently, such as in discus tanks.

Against much advice on this site, I did up to 30% water changes daily, and sometimes morning and night, during the nitrite phase of my cycle 2 years ago (cycled with white clouds before I knew about fishless or bio-spira). The cycle took the usual month and was not slowed by simple water changes w/o gravel vacs or filter cleaning. I I figured I'd rather risk a longer cycle than to lose any fish. I never lost anyone. Now I cycle very differently and wouldn't hesitate to do fishless if I did not have access to Biospira.

I did the same on my goldie tank, inspite of using BioSpira. I had 3 goldies (2-2.5 inches each) in a 36 gallon brand new tank. I used Bio-Spira, but when I saw just how much these guys were pooping, I did a hover vac to eliminate some of the ammonia source (little water eliminated and did not disturb gravel or filter. Tank cycled in about 4 days with only a 0.25 max spike in ammonia. Never seen nitrite.

I find new tanks are also easily pulled into minicycles not only by overcleaning and rapid overstocking, but by not cleaning enough. It is very wise to go right to the glass on 1/4 of the tank weekly in the early going - after the tank is at zero ammonia, nitrite and has good nitrate levels (10+). I even remove my tank decco on half my tank every 6 weeks or so and get under that where practical. It's amazing just how much gunk comes up. If it were heavily planted with rooted plants, I'd not worry about it, but I have mostly stem plants. I put them in a bucket, giving a good rinse with dechlorinated water and put them back in after I get the gravel good in that section.

Some like to drop it to induce breeding, but I find you can achieve the same thing by lowering the tank temp daily by 1.5 degrees, then allowing it to slowly heat back up. It is the rise that usually tells the fish it is time, not the drop. Fish breed daily in my aquariums anyway so there's no need to induce anything

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Jan-2005 12:51

Last edited by Cory_Di at 21-Jan-2005 13:38

Someone indicated that John should refrain from water changes in this thread. It was the only advice that I disagree with. I'm a proponent of water changes, the larger and the more frequent the better for fish.

Let me just clarify that I meant no water changes while the tank was cycling unless absoluntely necessary. Any other time I would say weekly 30% changes.

Of course, others have a different opinion and I respect that.

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Before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile away and you have their shoes.