FishProfiles.com Message Forums

Hi Everyone,

I set up a 5 gallon tank two months ago to try to keep my daughter's betta alive. A friend had given her a betta for her third birthday in a plastic cube that was the size of those fuzzy dice people used to hang from the rear view mirror. I added a balloon molly and committed the sin of overfeeding them, So we have an ammonia level of 3.0 ppm. I have started adding an ammonia binder and did two changes of the water of 25%. My question is, what else can I do to keep these poor fish alive? I have added a bigger filter to try and filter out the white clouds of bacteria, but every morning the ammonia level is just as high, even though I cut the food way back. I am hand feeding these fish now to make sure no food is rotting at the bottom of the tank. I don't want my daughter to see her fish dead at the bottom of the tank. Please, any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

The filter won't take bacteria out of the water. You could start doing water changes more often. You could also go out and buy a bacteria product such as Seachem Stability, which will help to boost your bacteria colonies.

--------------------------------------------
The aquarist is one who must learn the ways of the biologist, the chemist, and the veterinarian.

The filter is one of your problems, to start off with you must get a good bacteria going and to that I would also mention Seachem Stability. Use as directed, also do a 30-40% water change evey three days, while geting the tank stable
Wash out the filter material using the removed water weekly. This will not cause any problems with the bacteria. On that day double dose this will give the cleaned filter material a good boost. Being a small tank I would clean the filter every week.
Get some floating leafy plant such as Water Sprite( Indian fern) this will help a lot.
I personally would remove the molly will get to big for that tank any way and is causing a bacteria build up as well.

Feeding 50% less and only every second day until the tank has settled down.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith ::Y

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hi,
As you said, you goofed. Now to clear up the error.

Normally a bacterial bloom would go away after a relatively
short time, with water changes. Changing out the filter
and its material would only help if the filter sucked
in a large amount of the excess food trapping it among
the media. Otherwise, the individual bacteria are so
small that they would pass through the intake and out
the other side back into the tank.

I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of the excess and now
decaying food is laying among the grains of gravel in the
bottom of the tank. Therein lies the cause of the bloom.

To get a handle on it, in this particular case, I would
net the fish out and put them in a temporary container.

Next, I'd drain the tank, take out the gravel, and wash
it thoroughly under running water until the run off is
crystal clear. Scrub off any decorations with a clean
cloth under running water, and rinse off any plants as
well.
Place the tank under the faucet and rinse it out as
well rubbing the glass surfaces and the silicone
seals. Then, I'd redo the tank adding the gravel, plants,
decorations, and restart the filter.
When you refill the tank use one of the water conditioners
that Keith mentioned. It will help contain the remainder
of the bacteria outbreak, and add beneficial bacteria to
the water to help restart the Nitrogen Cycle.

Make sure the temperature of the water in the tank and
the water the fish are in is within 2 degrees of each
other, net the fish and place them back into the tank.
Do not pour the fish and old water back into the tank.
Just net them and release them into the tank.

Continue to feed sparingly and check the water chemistries
(Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate) each day, and perform
weekly, small, water changes of a half gallon each
week. Too large a water change and you dilute the "soup"
that is creating the nitrogen cycle, and you prolong the
process. You want to change out just enough to ease the
burden on the fish, and still encourage the beneficial
bacterial growth.
It could take 4-6 weeks to reestablish the Nitrogen Cycle.

Lastly, you may want to consider taking the molly back
or getting a larger tank. The molly is a live-bearer and
they give off more waste products than do many of the
egg-layers.
That specific type of molly is a special breed
that requires excellent water conditions and food to over
come its handicaps as it was specially bred to have those
features that give it its name. They are not the most
hardy of the molly species.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Wow, thanks for all the good advice. I am just learning so I am unsure of what to do now, but I will consider all that you have said and appreciate the input. I should mention that the filter I was using was too small and that is the reason I changed it out. The timing was not good but the filter was rated for a 3 gal. tank and I felt it was inadequate. I had already started using that seachem stability that shinigami and keith mentioned but it is good to know I am on the right track. I started using that because of the new filter. I am wondering now how to go about changing the filter medium. If 90% of the autotrophic bacteria is in the filter, how do you change the element and not mess up the biology of the tank?

Hi,
Actually, IMO, that 90% figure is way too high especially
for the type and amount of media that is possible in a
filter that size. The bacteria colonies are formed on
every grain of gravel, and on every surface of every part
of that tank. You really aren't going to hurt the colonies
by changing or washing out the media.

Filter size is an interesting concept. I believe they are
based on the old 1 inch of fish per gallon rule.
Filters are generally sized for the tank. A filter that
is "good" for tanks from 30 to 55 gallons is a normal label.
Now if you choose say a filter that is good from 5 to 15
gallons, unless the output is adjustable, would "blow"
your fish around in your tank! On the other hand in
a larger tank with rocks or ornaments for hard scape,
the 30-55G filter might be just right for the 30 if
you had fish that enjoyed a current and the fish could
stay in the lee of the rocks for resting periods.

A filter rated at 3G in a 5G tank could be perfect,
provided you kept small fish that did not eliminate a lot
of waste and were not messy eaters shredding their food
and eating the fragments, and - did not overload the tank
with fish.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

If 90% of the autotrophic bacteria is in the filter, how do you change the element and not mess up the biology of the tank?

That question has often had me wondering for that reason. I have a small HOB filter on my 45lt tank and I was faced with the exact problem. I just dug into the 40+ years experience and I could only come up with 2 answers.

First cut the filter in half and replace half at a time. the second method is what I use I tossed out the foam filter block and replaced it with filter cotton/wool/fibre material, and it works perfectly about every two weeks I just take a little of the filter material out and replace it with new material. I also add the Seachem Stability, by doing this I have never had a problem.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

I have been doing the water changes daily (20 to 25%) and adding the Seachem stability as directions state, but my ammonia level is climbing higher. I tested yesterday and the level was close to 5 ppm. The test kit says the level is lethal to fish. I cut way back on the food and I am not seeing any positive results. Does anyone know a way to get the ammonia level down? Also, the balloon molly was pregnant so now I have a tiny baby in a brooding chamber that I am trying to keep alive. Please help!!

It is extremely hard to help when we are not there.
Try this take a good sample to a reliable LFS and get it tested just in case your test kit is not accurate, also take a good sample from your water supply this could also be part of the problem.
I think I have seen at a LFS a ammonia filter pad there are also liquids that can be added to the water before it goes into the tank.

Seeing you are only changing a small amount of water I would get two larger water containers treat the water first and by the time one container is empty (this could take a few days) the next container is ready to use.
.
Frank advised you to clean all the gravel and any ornaments have you do that?
What was the test results after that was done?

Feeding exactly what, when and how much are you using this extremely important. Many fish tank problems are cause by trying to be too kind to their fish, OH they look hungry so I will give them more.
Is there any thing else in that tank that could be causing the problem?

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Are you still using the ammonia binder? That product (and possibly the stability - don't know, never used it) may be giving you false ammonia readings. Usually those sorts of products work by binding the ammonia to form a less toxic compound rather than removing it completely; the ammonia is still there and being detected by the test kits but not as dangerous to your fish.

How are the fish looking? Are they breathing fast, lethargic, red gills or anything like that. Because you've been using the ammonia binding products I think the best indicator of progress is going to be your fish rather than just relying on the test kits. Continued water changes once you are over this episode will eventually remove the product from your tank and allow for more accurate test results.

Good luck with your tank and keep us informed of how things are going. I'm sure most, if not all of us, have been through something similar at some point - hang in there.

G_T

Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.

Hi Everyone,

I appreciate that it is very difficult to diagnose these problems from a distance. I thank you for your help and advice.

I have tested the water as of last night and I think the ammonia level is going down. I have only a trace of nitrite reading so I believe the cycle is only part of the way complete. I seem to be past the initial ammonia spike. The fish do not seem to be stressed at all. I think the frequent partial water changes are helping to keep them healthy. I agree that the ammonia lock I was using may be giving me inaccurate readings. I have not used that for three days and I have done three water changes of 25% since then. The best barometer is that the fish seem to be happy. They are very active and are always interested in eating. Even the baby molly is active and has nearly doubled in size in the four or five days since I found him.

All these things seem to indicate the fish are not dying. Thanks to all for you help and interest.

The only way to find out if Seachem Stability is giving you a false reading is contact Seachem direct and the quickest way I know is
SEACHEM CONTACT
They will be the only ones to give you the correct answer. When you receive the answer could you please post it so that we all know the answer.

I have used their contact service and it is excellent.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Sorry, Keith.

The ammonia lock is not made by Seachem, so I don't think they are going to give the answer you are looking for. I have heard from other forums that an ammonia binder can affect your ammonia test readings, but no factual evidence is available; only opinion.

Hockey Fan,
We really don't make this stuff up.

Ammo-lock will give you a false positive reading for
ammonia. It merely converts the molecule to one not toxic.
However, it does still produce a reading for ammonia.

Direction for Use:
Add 5 ml per 10 US gallons of aquarium water. Continue to add Ammo Lock every 2 days until ammonia is not detected. If after 7 days, ammonia is still present, perform a partial water change, service your biological filter and reduce feeding.
TIP: Ammo Lock does not remove ammonia; it converts it to a non-toxic form. After using Ammo Lock, your aquarium water will still test positive for ammonia even though it is in a non-toxic form which will be removed by the biological filter.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hockey

I deleted my reply sorry I misunderstood your question and Frank has cleared it up any way.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith


Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

Hey Dude,

No need to apologize. I appreciate the help. I guess the answer was on the back of the bottle all along. Thanks Frank. I am wishing now I didn't use ammo-lock and change the filter. It is very hard to clean the gravel without taking out 20 to 25% of the water and I would be farther along in my cycle if I had not messed with the biology of the tank. On the happy side, I created this thread because my water was so cloudy I couldn't see my fish. I am pleased to report the water is now crystal clear and the tank is beautiful to look at. Thanks to everyone who posted advice here. You guys are great!

Great!
Welcome to Fish Profiles
I'm glad that Fish Profiles could help you.
Please consider posting here in the future and keep
us in mind.
Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Hokey

Buy a simple basic Vac Cleaner and do a deep vac of the gravel at minimum of 30% at every water change there are plenty of types around from the very expensive to the simple basic type.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info
Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW