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Hi All,
This is my first post on this site, and I'm not too much of an expert on aquariums and fish care, so any info anyone could give would be much appreciated.

I have a 15 gallon heated, planted, freshwater tank (with an Eclpise filtration system) which was home to two rather large (about 6 inches including fins) angelfish up until a few weeks ago at which point the younger (about 3 years old) of the two died. It appeared that he had gotten himself stuck behind the heater somehow and by the time I found him either scared himself to death or overheated. (Like I said, not an expert here.) It was showing no signs of being sick and to my knowledge normal angelfish should live much longer than that, so I'm not sure what happened there.

The second fish died a few days ago, although he/she (not sure!) *was* showing signs of some sort of sickness, but only after the other fish died. His belly seemed to be getting bigger, and he refused to eat, and the last day or so before he died he was swimming upside-down and hiding in the plants, etc. Physically, other than the belly nothing looked abnormal.

The only other issue was that about 8 or 9 months ago I had noticed what appears to be tiny little white specs (some of them look like tiny "worms" the size of small hairs) crawling on the glass and the gravel, and sometimes floating around in the water. However, there didn't appear to be any of the "worms" on the fish, and the fish didn't seem to be affected by the "things". All of the local fish stores that I contacted had different opinions on what they could be. Most had no idea what they were. Some recommended medications and treatments, but I cant seem to find any medications that actually treat the water and not the fish. One person I spoke with said I had to do a complete water change and bleach out the tank, and that the "worms" were a result of not cleaning frequently enough, but that he had no idea what they were.

I did several partial water changes (since I didn't want to have to restart the entire tank system and didn't really have any place to put the fish while the tank was re-set up) and the wormy-things seemed to be decreasing in number with each change, although never completely elliminated. I did do another partial change (about 50%) immediately after the first angelfish died, (since the pH was low-around 6.2, and the nitrates were high-over 80ppm) but obviously I didn't change the water soon enough, or else the damage was already done.

The tank is currently still up and running (still have two live amazon swords and I dont have the heart to throw out perfectly healthy plants) and the tiny white worm things are still there. I want to start over and try again with a different type of fish, hopefully something that will stay a lot smaller since the angels outgrew the tank in record time (im thinking tetras stay small?). I know i'll probably have to throw out the plants (still have the little pots on them and im afraid the "worms" are living in them) and bleach the tank and all the filtration equiptment (which is one of the Eclipse lid, light and filter combo sets) to prevent whatever is in there from killing the new fish.

My concern is how do I prevent whatever things are living in there from coming back (and how did they get there in the first place?) Also, this may be a dumb question but is Bleach safe to use (diluted with water obviously) to clean the glass tank and the plastic filtration parts, or is there something else anyone can recommend? My other concern is the "biowheel" that comes with the Eclipse system. Is there a way to clean that or should I not be concerned? I also heard that turning my heater up as high as it goes for a few days would kill anything living in the tank (good bacteria included??) Would this be a good option to avoid "new tank syndrome"?

I know that's a lot, but any help before I start over would be very helpful!

-Jak

p.s: should I be concerned about a few black grainy seed looking things in the corners of the tank? or is it possible that these are the sword plant seeds or something??

I once became concerned there might be "something" lurking in my tank & this is what I suggest.

Take out your live plants & place them in some water. If you can, place them outside where they can get some light during this cleaning out phase.

You can alway completly dump the gravel & replace, but what I did was to remove it. Wash it out completely several times. You could use bleach, but if you do, make sure you rinse really well & in the final rinse I would add some water conditioner/de-chlorinater. Then spread out an old sheet in the sun & spread out the gravel in a single layer, on the sheet. Leve it to dry out naturally over a few days. The sun will finish off the job for you.

You can then wash the tank out completely in hot water, with a little bleach added. Again make sure to rinse out completely. There is probably nothing in the filter media, but to be sure you could boil any noodles or matrix for a minute or two. Then spread this on the sheet in the sun to dry as well.

I think you would then be good to put everything back together. Naturally you will need to cycle the tank again, as all the good bacteria will also be destroyed during all this cleaning out.

I don't have biowheel that comes with the Eclipse system, so sorry, I don't know of anything special required there.

I might seem extreme, but how much more annoying to restart with only the same problems. Now with no fish, this is your chance to start afresh.

My tank gave me no further troubles after this cleaning.

Hope this helps a little.

Cheers
TW

Jak,

Foremost, sorry about the loss.

Besides the good advice that Robyn gave you, I have a few thoughts (some of which you may have heard before).

First of all, a 15G is way too small for 2 adult angels. I would assume that living in such tight quarters is greatly reducing the life expectancy of the fish.

Secondly, Nitrates of 80ppm will kill most fish when exposed over a prolonged duration. If you didn't have at least 50% of a water change every week (and most likely you needed even more than that) then this is another good candidate why your angels died.

Third, the white worms are usually harmless and occasionally serve as fish food, I think they are called copepods or something like that.

Fourth, I know nothing about black seeds, sorry about that.

I know my entry may sound harsh, but I am rather convinced that either point one or two, or a combination of both, killed your fish. Fish hiding behind a heater usually indicates that they are on their way out, and upside down swimming indicates an issue with the swim bladder.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

---

Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

oops, I didn't see the high nitrate reading. Somehow I missed that.

Yes, LF is right. You should never let it get that high as that can definitely lead to fish deaths. Do you do weekly water changes? Most of us here recommend weekly 50%, but at least you should consider 30% weekly.

Hope this helps a little. And sorry, I forgot to say sorry for your loss. I have been a little distracted myself, due to my own fish loss today (not related to the issue above). Hope we both have better luck from now on.

Cheers
TW

I'm almost positive that it was the high nitrates that killed off the angel fish. That in combination with the smaller tank size can stunt a fish greatly reducing life expectancy. I've seen this a number of times in goldfish I've had to rescue from people that insist on keeping them in bowls (wont go there today ).

As for the white wormy things. Those are Planeria and quite harmless. Many breeders in fact appreaciate having them for the free snacks they provide.

Bleach since it was asked can be used in a ratio of 1:10 bleach : water (one cup bleach ten cups water). Then rinsed a good dozen times and left to sit in the sun for a day or two as UV will break down chlorine. Follow up with another rinse with a mix strong mix of dechlor and water. However I dont think you need to use bleach. I really believe it was simply a poor stocking and maintence situation which is easily fixed by hanging around here, reading a few of the articles]http://www.fishprofiles.com/articles/[/link], checking through the [link=FAQ]http://www.fishprofiles.net/faq/[/link] (especially the one for [link=beginners and posting questions.

Welcome to the site, we were all where you once were.

^_^

Ok, I am cleaning out the tank today. I have a pond in my back yard that I might just move the plants to and see how they do. Once I get it back up and running again and cycled, what are some suggestions of fish varieties that would stay small enough to do well in my tank? I was thinking about tetras...I've heard to keep them in schools of at least 7... would that be a good amount for a tank that size and would it be smarter to only start with 3 or so at a time? Also, does anyone know of any easy to find plants (in the U.S.) that would stay relatively small too?

And as for the little white critters in the tank, does anyone know of any fish that might eat them incase they come back? I checked some of them out crawling on the glass with a magnifying glass and they look similar to pictures of the copepod things...so im guessing that's what they are. although strangely enough some of them just look like little white strings or hairs inching along like an inchworm. where is an invertebrate zoologist when you need one....?


-jak

You have received a lot of excellent advice above but I have one very big concern with your next step.

Ok, I am cleaning out the tank today. I have a pond in my back yard that I might just move the plants to and see how they do.

When I have cleaned a tank out I always put my plants in a large plastic container, I add plenty of air, heater and light. I have keeped plants like this for three weeks (tank replacement insurance delays) and never lost a plant.

Putting them in a outside pool just might bring some unwanted nasties into your tank after it is set up again and that is something you or anyone wants.

Have a look in [link=My Profile] http://www.fishprofiles.com/forums/member.aspx?id=1935[/link] for my tank info

Look here for my
Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tank Photos

Keith

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And as for the little white critters in the tank, does anyone know of any fish that might eat them incase they come back?

As Babelfish said, these are not copepods, but Planaria,
a type of flatworm. They are HARMLESS and should be of no concern to you whatsoever. They often grow in the tank
due to excess nutrients caused by overfeeding. Want them to go away? Feed you fish less and clean your tank more.
Stripping a tank because of planaria seems like a whole bunch of work over nothing.

I agree with Keith. I definitely would not put my aquarium plants in a pond. Many critters in ponds can be very hazardous to aquarium fish, some insects which can even eat fish!

For your tank, I would recommend you plan at stocking a maximum of 15 inches of fish (at adult size, not baby size).
Look at small tetras and the like.
A good stocking I would like in a 15g tank would be something like this:
1 Dwarf Gourami or Bolivian Ram (3-4 inches)
6 Neon Tetras or similar (6 inches)
5 Corydoras Hasbrosus or Pygmaeus (5-7 inches).
Thats a total of 15-17 inches, which is perfect stocking for a 15g tank.
Water changes should be once weekly, 30%, vaccuuming a total of 50% of your gravel, which you reverse sides each week.
Never clean the filter at the same time, and only clean cartridges in used aquarium water.
Good luck.

Also, remember that now you have stripped your tank,
you will need to re-cycle it. Again, youve made more work for yourself.
Read this article on Cycling.


http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html

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Please take a look at SVSneaky's list for stocking.

You need to choose appropriate stock for a 15g
OR if you have your heart set on angels because they are your fave then you need to get a bigger tank for 'em

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ My fish blow kisses at me all day long ~~~

Hi Jak I to am new.But I have to say yea a biger tank would be good for you.I had planed on just geting fish for my ten gal lol that didn't last. I ended up buying a new 55 gal I love it. I have 7 angels 4 swortails a candy tetra but plz plz don't buy candys there died and that isn't right. I also have a buenos aires. I love them all. But I to have prublems with my angel I have one that has pneuminona I have her in the ten gal and am treeting her with meds. My tank water I just found out is to hard so I am going to the pet store to take care of that.You have to clean the fish tank often as I am learning. We have a top fin filter and a Rena filstar xp2 with the under ground filtration. But you will learn as I am.
Wish you all the luck and sorry about your angels
Edith

edith

Edith,
Angelfish do not get "pneumonia".
Your fish is suffering from something else.
Could you describe symptoms to me?
What are you treating it with?


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Do you no how meny times I have been told this lol if you go to google put in tetracycline tablets. You will see this
Tetracycline tablets




How does it work?

This medicine contains the active ingredient tetracycline hydrochloride, which belongs to a group of antibiotics called the tetracyclines. It is used to treat infections caused by bacteria. Tetracycline works by interfering with the ability of bacteria to produce proteins that are essential to them. Without these proteins the bacteria cannot grow, multiply and increase in numbers. Tetracycline therefore stops the spread of the infection and the remaining bacteria are killed by the immune system or eventually die. Tetracycline is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is active against a wide variety of bacteria. However, some strains of bacteria have developed resistance to this antibiotic, which has reduced its effectiveness for treating some types of infection. Tetracycline is still used to treat infections caused by chlamydia (eg the chest infection psittacosis, the eye infection trachoma, and the genital infection urethritis) and infections caused by mycoplasma organisms (((eg pneumonia)))). Tetracycline is used to treat acne, due to its activity against the bacteria on the skin that cause acne (Propionebacterium acnes). It is used to treat flare-ups of chronic bronchitis, due to its activity against the bacteria usually responsible, Haemophilus influenzae. Tetracycline is also used to treat other rarer infections, such as those caused by a group of micro-organisms called rickettsiae (eg Q fever, Rocky mountain spotted fever) and those caused by Brucella bacteria (brucellosis). To make sure the bacteria causing an infection are susceptible to tetracycline your doctor may take a tissue sample, for example a swab from the infected area, or a urine or blood sample. (There you go it is what it is) I just got back from the pet store I got more meds
Edith


edith

Fish do not get "Pneumonia".


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Well So_Very_Sneaky
Maybe you could write the company that makes the meds I am giveing my fish the company is (Mardel) Med's are tertacycline tablets.Just let them no they don't no what there talking about oh and plz let google no also they to are wrong. I love my fish all of them I took the fish right over to the pet shop she checked it gee I thought she new what she was saying I double checked to phoned my own pet shop they to said the same thing.I am sorry if Isound upset but I trust what all you say for you to say I don't no what I am talking about Well it is there in righting on google I surched this really good it is my first angle. Sorry if I am upset
Edith

edith

I am aware of what Tetracycline treats in humans.
But having read about 3-4 fish disease books
in the past two years, I can assure you that your
fish does not have pneumonia.
It is likely your fish has some type of bacteria
infection, but this is not pneumonia.

Some info on Pneumonia:

"Pneumonia is often classified into two categories that may help predict the organisms that are the most likely culprits.
Community-acquired (pneumonia contracted outside the hospital). Pneumonia in this setting often follows a viral respiratory infection. It affects nearly 4 million adults each year. It is likely to be caused by Streptococcus pneumoniae, the most common pneumonia-causing bacteria. Other organisms, such as atypical bacteria called Chlamydia or Mycoplasma pneumonia are also common causes of community-acquired pneumonia.


Hospital-acquired pneumonia. Pneumonia that is contracted within the hospital is called nosocomial pneumonia. Hospital patients are particularly vulnerable to gram-negative bacteria and staphylococci, which can be very dangerous. "

From - http://www.reutershealth.com/wellconnected/doc64.html

Fish do not acquire pneumonia - it is an air borne
bacteria, which does not affect fish.
The nature of their bodies, lungs, and gills prevents
them from being affected by such problems as pneumonia.

I dont disagree that your fish is sick, but I know
it definitely is not Pneumonia, neither viral nor bacterial.

The only way to determine what your fish actually has would be to consult a quality fish health text.

Check such books as the one I own:

Manual of Fish Health
Dr. Chris Andrews, Adrian Exell, & Dr. Neville Carrington
Firefly Books, 2003.
New York, NY.




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Tetracycline is an antibiotic that is also used in humans to treat bacterial infections.

I don't think you're fish have pneumonia. The antibiotic you are using can be used to treat pneumonia in humans, but it treats bacterial infections in fish.

Jak, I agree with all the information given to you. I'd go by So_Very_Sneaky's stocking list. The neons can be changed out for cardinal tetras, glowlight tetras, black neons, harlequin rasboras, or flame tetras if you'd like. Just get 1 school of 6. You could also substitute a male betta or honey gourami for the dwarf gourami.

Good luck with your tank! And be sure to stick to a weekly maintenance schedule...it will help your fish stay healthy.

*Kristin*

Well, the tank has been cleaned out completely, I got brand new gravel and plants, and it has been cycling for about 5 days now and...THE WORMS ARE BACK!!!

I doubt they survived the rigorous cleaning (bleach was used, but dont worry, i rinsed several times.) I noticed them this morning on the glass again (I was out of town for the weekend and just got back last night, so they could have been there sooner, who knows). There's not as many as there were last time, and i only see the ones that look like worms, not the ones that look more like bugs, so im assuming that they start out as worm-like larvae and then develop into the bug looking things. When this problem first started a few months back, my sister tried to look at one on a slide under a microscope, and from what she could see she said they definitely did not have the typical planarian worm eye spots (since someone at a pet store had suggested thats what they are). That and, to my knowledge, planarian worms dont reach a phase where they turn into something looking more like an oval shaped bug with antennae and/or legs, im pretty sure they aren't planarian worms.

Someone suggested feeding less and cleaning more (someone else at a petstore suggested this also) but now i have them in a completely clean tank that's only been up and running for a few days, so i don't think that's the cause. my only guesses as to where they come from are my water supply (tap water), the dechlor ive been using, the plants, or the bacteria starter I used when i added the water last week. they seem to die when they hit water, so my next move is to try draining all the water out and letting the gravel dry out completely, and try again using distilled bottled water instead of tap water and all the chemicals. any thoughts on that plan???

As for the plants in the pond, they've taken up permanant residence outside and im not planning on bringing them back inside.

And as for the new plants I just bought, I guess they'll have to go, too.

As for the fish, once the major problem is under control i will probably look into tetras, since a bigger tank is just not an option for my limited amount of space.

Thanks for all the help so far!

pulling my hair out in frustration,
-Jak

ps: would an aquatic frog (or the tetras) eat worms??

Well, the tank has been cleaned out completely, I got brand new gravel and plants, and it has been cycling for about 5 days now and...THE WORMS ARE BACK!!!

I doubt they survived the rigorous cleaning (bleach was used, but dont worry, i rinsed several times.) I noticed them this morning on the glass again (I was out of town for the weekend and just got back last night, so they could have been there sooner, who knows). There's not as many as there were last time, and i only see the ones that look like worms, not the ones that look more like bugs, so im assuming that they start out as worm-like larvae and then develop into the bug looking things. When this problem first started a few months back, my sister tried to look at one on a slide under a microscope, and from what she could see she said they definitely did not have the typical planarian worm eye spots (since someone at a pet store had suggested thats what they are). That and, to my knowledge, planarian worms dont reach a phase where they turn into something looking more like an oval shaped bug with antennae and/or legs, im pretty sure they aren't planarian worms.

Someone suggested feeding less and cleaning more (someone else at a petstore suggested this also) but now i have them in a completely clean tank that's only been up and running for a few days, so i don't think that's the cause. my only guesses as to where they come from are my water supply (tap water), the dechlor ive been using, the plants, or the bacteria starter I used when i added the water last week. they seem to die when they hit water, so my next move is to try draining all the water out and letting the gravel dry out completely, and try again using distilled bottled water instead of tap water and all the chemicals. any thoughts on that plan???

As for the plants in the pond, they've taken up permanant residence outside and im not planning on bringing them back inside.

And as for the new plants I just bought, I guess they'll have to go, too.

As for the fish, once the major problem is under control i will probably look into tetras, since a bigger tank is just not an option for my limited amount of space.

Thanks for all the help so far!

pulling my hair out in frustration,
-Jak

ps: would an aquatic frog (or the tetras) eat worms??

They are planaria, and again, they are harmless.
They occur due to excess nutrients in the tank,
often due to overfeeding.
They are not worth tearing a tank apart for.
Simple remedy - feed less, wipe lids clean to keep
food residue off, and increase water change frequency.
Almost all fish will eat them.
It is not major worry, they come and go in my tanks,
no problems, and the fish always enjoy a nice live snack.


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