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*scratches head* well unless I have a brother I didnt know about


Ok, there's debate about the long term use of cycle. We used to have a member here (passed away a few years ago) that would dose cycle with every water change. From my understanding, long term a tanks beneficial bacteria may end up being out competed by other forms of bacteria causing the ammonia to not be converted properly causing all sorts of wonkyness. His theory on dosing weekly with cycle was that you maintain the good bacterias in large enough populations that other less good bacteria will never get a foothold.

That being said, I've never used cycle on a regular basis and can't really support it or claim that it's necessary. For me it's good to have on hand for emergencies, such as power loss for a few days, or after a heavy medication dose.

Good thing you've got an extra set of remembering there! It can get a bit overwhelming, just remember to double triple check if there's anything you're unsure about when buying stock, these are little lives you'll be responsible for after all


^_^

Do you think the yo-yos will play nice with a few ghost shrimp? Or could the ghost play nice with the neons? I want a few crusties! I'm tired of the kids dragging me to the lobster tank at the grocery store.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

It is hard telling if the yoyo's will play night with the shrimp or not. I have two skunk loaches in my 55G with a breeding colony of Cherry shrimp. The loaches sure do not seem to be putting a dent on the shrimp population if they are eating them. I have not caught them attacking a shrimp but I am not sure what happens at night in the tank. One thing the shrimp have going for them is that my tank is quite densely planted so there is plenty of cover for the shrimp to hide in.

Moral of the story, you could try it but be prepared for the shrimp to become part of the food chain.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

New issue. While arguing over the lighting option, the moneywort is now covered in slime, and is brown. I finally hooked up the shop light anyway. (He caved once he saw it on the tank.) The scarlet temple has also suffered, but looks like it's having a slow come back. (the light is directly over it. The problem is I'm torn between pulling out the plants, or keeping them for the yo-yo's? I'm sure they would enjoy the algae meal and the rotten leaves. (the stems/stalks of both plants appear sturdy.) I know the snails are enjoying full run of the tank. Moley has multiplied by 10 or 20 now. The neons try to eat the ity-bity baby snails but they don't make a dent. I digress. We won't be getting the barbs until Tues. Then a week or two later the tetras. So the yo-yo's will probably be at least a month away. (I think we'll get the angelfish last.)

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Pull any rotting or dying plants.
Just like the animal waste the plants will cause an ammonia spike, and that's not what you want in a new or cycling tank .

Once the plants have the right light and nutrients, they may make a comeback. However you may also lose a lot of them due to lower light and lack of CO2.

^_^

I actually had the water tested today
ammonia .5
alkalinity 120
hardness 150
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
ph 7.2

I checked on CO2 pills, but got "Leaf Zone" instead. I'll see how that works for the plants that I keep. I'll pull the moneywort.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
Your tank is only now just beginning to cycle (ammonia .5)
and with a reading that low, it could actually be a false
reading due to the cycling chemicals that you have added.

I would NOT add any addition fish until you see the
ammonia climb (it can reach as much as 6ppm, during the
cycling process) and the nitrite begin to appear (it can
reach as much as 10ppm in a cycling tank).

Cycling a tank generally takes 4-6 weeks... Wait before
adding more fish.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

What frank said
No adding fish till the tank is fully cycled


I never had much success adding ferts of anykind, made worse algae issues. CO2 tabs don't supply the right type of co2 IMO. However if you want to get rid of spare cash I can tell you my address (kidding )

^_^

Frank and Babel
Just wondering as the tank is cycling I've been doing water changes and adding water as it evaporates. Does that make a difference in cycle time... I've had this tank up and running since November 1st.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
Yes, regular water changes in a cycling tank can lengthen
the time it takes for the tank to cycle. As the waste
products accumulate and the bacteria that eats it increases
things will come to a even keel and the tank will settle
down. When you dilute the "soup" with fresh water changes
then things take a step back. Top off water does not
necessarily do that as you aren't removing any water just
replacing what has evaporated and the accumulations
continue to increase.
The only time I would do a water change is if the fish
start showing stress from the cycling process... gasping
at the surface, rapid breathing, or fish that would
normally be swimming laying on the bottom.
Ammonia can reach a 5 and nitrite a 10 in the process.
Watch the fish, they will tell you when you have to change
the water. It takes 4-6 weeks to cycle a tank with the
the correct ratio of fish mass to water.

You should test your water and see what the ammonia,
nitrite, and nitrate readings are now. Had you posted
them along with your question we would be better able to
help you.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I plan to have the water tested in the morning. I will post the results.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Test results:
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 20
Nitrite 10
Total clorine 0
Alkalinity 80
PH 6.8

I think I will buy my own test kits next week. This guy gave me a hard time about writing it down. I'm not quite sure he knew what he was doing. He recommended Seachem Prime to knock down the Nitrate & Nitrite.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
Assuming (we all know what that means ), that the
readings are correct, they are telling you that the
tank is not yet fully cycled. The Ammonia AND Nitrite
must both read zero before one can say that the tank is
fully cycled.

Once cycled, in a fish only tank, then you would
want to "manage" the tank (water changes and
gravel vacuumings) to bring the Nitrate down to zero.
In a tank with plants then you have some "slack" there
as it is recommended that one keeps the Nitrate between
5 & 10.

You are nearly there, the ammonia is 0 and the nitrite
is well on its way out as the nitrate is starting to climb.
Honestly, I would not use any chemicals on the tank.
Everything you are doing is working - Why mess with it?

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

After strong suspicions that the LFS employees didn't know what they were doing, testing my tank water, I took a sample to a second store, the next day. His results was totally different. He said everything was fine except I had a high ammonia read. Oh, was I hot under the collar. I then went to back to Petsmart and bought my own test kit. MY results from the API freshwater master test kit today are:
PH 7.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 0

My husband is adamant the filter/case has to be cleaned. I have to agree. (the insides are quite slimy with algae) What do you suggest with cleaning. If I use tank water, am I doing a water change/replacement? Can I get away with just filling my bucket with city tap and putting water conditioner in it?

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

If the filter is clogged to me that means the filter cannot handle the load being put through it.

Always Always use tank water! It's the safest.

In the case of your filter, most of what's in there is your bacteria that you're trying to grow, the bacteria clings to every surface; sides of the tank, substrate, plants, decor, and especially the filter. That's what the sponges or noodles or bioballs or wheel on a filter is there for, giving the bacteria a place to live! By rinsing it you end up washing all that good bacteria you've put you fish through so much for away.

Having nitrite in the tank is reasonable at your stage of cycling, how many weeks has it been again? 3? 4? you're almost there, I'd highly suggest waiting till the nitrIte is gone and the nitrAte is present. Removing any bacteria at this point just sets you back and makes the poor fish suffer longer.

Can you remind us what sized filter you're running on the tank?


^_^

Aquaclear power filter for 40-70 gallon aquariums. The box says it filters 300 gph. It's a HOB system with mechanical, chemical and biological inserts. (foam, carbon, and biomax)
It's not really clogged. It's just you can see the algae in the intake tube and on the outflow rim. When you lift the lid it's a thin flim on the lid. Basically no different then on the glass of the tank, but we can scrub that off with a sea sponge/scrapper. My husbands a bit of a neat-nic with his pets and it has rubbed off on me(just a little).

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
We should probably go over some basics with you.
First, the filter. A filter rated from 40-70 gallons should
be fine for a 55 as that is just about in the middle of its
range. However, the fish you say you are going to house in
that tank are all large fish. Large bodied fish, and fish
that are not only messy eaters, but also large waste
producers. I don't think that particular filter is going
to do the job that you want it to do. I'd skip the HOB
style and purchase a canister.

You mention that the inside of the filter is covered in
slimy algae. Is this a sheet of algae like a blanket that
smells, or is it green hair algae that is flourishing?
If it is the smelly sheets of algae, it is probably BGA
and you will need to eliminate it. Unfortunately, the
easiest way is to simply kill it. An antibiotic, Erythromycin
will kill it. The problem is that because the medication
is an antibiotic, it can be lethal to the bacteria that
perform the Nitrogen Cycle. Too little, and the algae will
continue to thrive, too much and you have to recycle the
tank all over again, just right, and you will partially
kill off the beneficial bacteria, but they will grow back
in time.

The beneficial bacteria colonies actually live
throughout the tank. They live on the sides and surfaces
of the tank and any ornaments. They encrust each grain of
gravel, and live on the surfaces of the filter and its
media. Most of the colonies actually exist in the tank and
on the gravel. The filter is the next larger reservoir for
the colonies.

Lastly, you seem to have set a deadline by which you will
start adding the main fish to the tank, and you seem adamant.
That bothers us as frankly the tank has not cycled. It's
not ready to house those fish. You have to have the tank
fully cycled. The Ammonia = Zero, the Nitrite = Zero, and
the Nitrate = some reading less than 10.
Now, once the tank is cycled, you can't just toss in
those fish all at once or even one kind, once a week.
With each addition of these larger fish, you have to give
the tank at least a week for the Ammonia, Nitrite, and
Nitrate readings to come back to their "normal" readings...
That is 0,0,something less than 10. Before adding more
fish.

This is not a hobby for folks who are impatient. You have
to wait for nature to take ITS course.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks Frank. I can wait. It's the other natives that are restless. I'll go over these posts with "the spouse" and see what flys. I'm in no rush to spend more money. Besides, the newt & shrimp are quite entertaining. (Damn thing won't eat the ghost shrimp.)

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

I read the most recent posts to my "other half" and we checked the filter. The algae does not stink, nor is it thick. So we think it's okay. I will try to borrow a camera for pics. I'm not very good at taking photos. So bear with me. We re-read the instructions of the filter and we are past maintance for the carbon and at maintenace for the foam. I't a 1-2-3 system, carbon every month, foam every 2 months, biomax every 3 months. I think I will only replace the carbon every month starting now and leave the foam for next month, the biomax for the following month. I wanted to get a good foot in the cycling door before I messed with the filter.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

What frank said keep re-reading his posts if you ever get confuse he's been keeping fish longer than I've been alive ...errm yeah..

Ok, next, take the instructions and rip off the part about replacing the carbon every month, keep that and send the rest through the paper shredder.

You should never need to replace the foam in a filter, the ones that come with the AC filters is really tough and will take lots of squeezing twisting and rinsing. I've never been a fan of amrid ect, I'm assuming that's what the biomax is, does it say exactly what it does?

In my AC filters I run two blocks of foam. Every few water changes one gets squeezed out in a bucket full of used tank water, which then gets poured into the garden (the plants with : love it) then the refreshed foam gets placed on the bottom and the older unrinsed foam gets placed on the top. Few water changes later and the top one gets rinsed and placed on the bottom.


Keep the tank as lightly stocked as you can for now, that lets it mature more fully before adding more fish, and when you do add them do it slowly to let the tank mature to the new population. Like frank mentioned you're stocking some fairly heavy fish in the tank and the filter may not be able to keep up. If you're noticing a lot of waste on the bottom of the tank when you do a gravel vac you may wish to increase the frequency of your water changes and covering a smaller portion of the gravel with each change. You may also wish to consider a second HOB, or a powerhead to increase the chances of the filter picking up the waste before it settles too much into the gravel. There's lots of options out there.


Oh, and one last thing, the filter will get gucky, that's part of keeping fish, it's just a matter of how gucky it gets. If the filter isn't strong enough for the load it may get blocked and grow all sorts things (even fish). If its running normally you should notice a brownish buildup after a few weeks that you end up rinsing away in used tank water.


^_^

Hi,
he's been keeping fish longer than I've been alive ...errm yeah..
Thanks for the complement Babel...

Carbon's use in filtration systems has been going on
for decades. When I first started in the late 50s,
all the average person had for filters were small
HOB filters that contained what looked like glass wool,
and "activated" charcoal. Instead of a pump to move the
water through the filter, we used a lift tube that had
an attachment for an air hose from your vibrator air pump.
You adjusted the flow of air so that you had bubbles of
air and water pulling the water from the tank into the
top of the filter. The charcoal layer was on top and
the the "filter floss" as it was called was the last layer
of filtration before the water was returned to the tank.
The purpose of the charcoal was to trap the organic
compounds as well as some heavy metals such as copper,
removing it from circulation. Depending upon the fish,
your husbandry, and the flow through the filter, the
carbon had to be replaced at some regular interval. That
was because after a certain time of immersion, it was
"saturated" and instead of being a chemical filter, it
became strictly a mechanical (particle) filter.

That was a long long time ago... Today's filters really
do not need carbon and it's use is mainly a hold over
from decades past. We now know the importance of regular
water changes and todays filters have huge amounts of
surface area that will house the bacteria colonies necessary
for the Nitrification Cycle. Today, there are only two
reasons to run carbon in a freshwater tank. To remove
the remnants of medications after a disease and to
remove tannins from fresh driftwood (turns the water yellow
in color - some folks hate that).

When done treating a tank for disease, virtually every
medication recommends at least one Large water change,
and then the use of carbon to remove the last vestiges of
the medication from the tank water. All of them say to
remove the carbon from the filter during treatment.

When adding driftwood to a tank, the wood will leach
stannic acid into the tank water. This acid will lower the
pH of the tank and also turn the water yellow in color.
It does not turn the water cloudy, it's as if you are
looking at the fish through yellow colored cellophane.
It is not harmful to the fish, but many dislike the "look"
and add carbon to their filters to remove it.

Additionally, using carbon in a heavily planted tank that
you are fertilizing is not recommended because the carbon
will remove some of the components of the fertilizers from
circulation and deprive the plants of the needed elements.

Unless you are trying to do one of those two actions, you
would be better served to add an extra block of foam to
the filter as Babel recommends. That will increase the
surface area for the bacteria colonies and won't need
replacing for years and years.

Adding Bio Max to your tank (filter) is like adding RIDEX
to your septic tank. It "refreshes" the bacteria colonies
with fresh bacteria. The theory is sort of akin
to needing new bacteria for the existent bacteria to
breed with so you don't the same populations breeding
with each other (problems with inbreeding) and
progressive weakening of the colonies from the inbreeding.
I, personally, don't think that we need to be
concerned about it because we simply don't leave tanks
set up for a long enough period for that problem to
take place.
Another reason for using it is based on the idea
that rinsing out the filter and its media with chlorinated
water will weaken the bacteria colonies and the new
stuff jump starts the nitrification process.


Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Thanks to both of you. We've been running the filter as sold (foam, carbon, & biomax), since the beginning. We do have a planted tank, so should we remove the carbon? I did see another option in place of the ?carbon? at the LFS but I can't remember what it is right now... I'll have to look into it and report back. Hey is this slowing down the tank cycle?

Frank, you've been working with aquariums before I or my husband was a twinkle in the eye of our parents. But when you described the filters of olde, it brought back soooo many memories for the both of us! (We're not so young that we don't know about the filter floss & carbon) I think I have a relative that might still be using that setup.

Bablefish, okay you have to go really, really slow with me. When you said, "In my AC filters I run two blocks of foam. Every few water changes one gets squeezed out in a bucket full of used tank water, which then gets poured into the garden (the plants with : love it) then the refreshed foam gets placed on the bottom and the older unrinsed foam gets placed on the top. Few water changes later and the top one gets rinsed and placed on the bottom."

Okay do you mean... I'm to squeeze and swish into the bucket with the tank water. Or do I squeeze and then rinse with tap water. I think can manage the 2 foam switch setup, I'm sure.

Lastly (For Now!) If I remove the carbon, do I keep it until I need it? (after medicine treatments) And how do I prepare/store it until I need it (if I can keep it, that is)? Do I let it air dry? rinse it? if I rinse it do I rinse it in tap or tank water. I told ya, I've got lots of questions!

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Okay do you mean... I'm to squeeze and swish into the bucket with the tank water. Or do I squeeze and then rinse with tap water. I think can manage the 2 foam switch setup, I'm sure.

Lastly (For Now!) If I remove the carbon, do I keep it until I need it? (after medicine treatments) And how do I prepare/store it until I need it (if I can keep it, that is)? Do I let it air dry? rinse it? if I rinse it do I rinse it in tap or tank water. I told ya, I've got lots of questions!

Question 1 ~ Use a bucket with some tank water in it. Your bacteria colony will thank you for it.

Question 2 - How long has the carbon been in the filter? If it has been in there for more than a couple of weeks it is probably no longer active and has become a mechanical/bio filter instead of a chemical filter. Even if you pull it out of the filter and let it dry it will not regenerate or anything like that. I would recommend buying the bulk carbon and a media sock to put it in. Just keep this on hand if you ever need to add it to the filter later.

55G Planted tank thread
19G Container Pond
[IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y118/Wingsdlc/Ric

Yeah, we have readings today!

Ph 7.6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5

The kids are excited and ready to welcome more fish to the tank. I told them, they have to wait until Sunday. The LFS sells fish every day; buy 2 get the 3rd one free, but on Sundays the fish are 1/2 off on top of that!

Since the newt shows no inclination to eat anything alive. (it prefers frozen brine shrimp) And it hasn't made any attempt on the ghost shrimp (which loves to eat his poo). We witnessed that first hand the other night and were both fascinated and disgusted at the same time. We will put the neons in with the newt and hope they don't become a part of the circle of life. The water parameters are similar for the newt and the neons.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Okay, now I've uncovered another dilemma with the Angelfish! We wanted to purchase each species of the fish (angels, tetras, barbs, and loaches) as juvies so the kids could watch them change and mature. Now I find (out of a new topic thread) that I can't id juvie male or female angels. It was suggested that I buy a group and hope to get a pair out of it. Doing that would seriously overstock my tank. After talking it out with my hubby, we figured we could drop the tetras and get more angels. If we get a pair out of it, we will then decide if we want to give the others a new home. How big should the group be? 4 or 6 This is a 55 gal and will have 9 black ruby barbs, 3-4 yo-yo loaches, and whatever angel grouping will fit best.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

We're off to see the wizard....eeerrr...the Fish Store In the mmmmmorning. Unfortunately we have to wait at least 2 more weeks for the yo-yo's. They're imported. I was talking the store owner, around Chrismas, about the fish we were interested in. Lo and behold, she placed an order for them. Apparently, someone else in the store was looking for some loaches, and liked the idea too. I would have liked to get them tomorrow, since I want something to get a foothold on the algae. But alas, it is not to be... We will have to exercise a little more patience and wait a bit. So we'll be getting the group of Angles first. Let them get settled, and maybe by then the yo-yo's will be there. I love it when a plan comes together!

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi Kelly,
Gosh the Demon is loose!!! If ever there were candidates
for the dreaded disease M-T-S it is you guys!

Please allow me to digress...
In many respects fish keeping is much like stamp collecting.
When I got my first album and a bag of 1000 stamps, I was
excited beyond belief. I jumped into it and was determined
to collect every stamp I could from all over the world.
Eventually I realized that I could never do such a thing
and I decided that I would collect just stamps from one
country. Next I realized that I'd never accomplish that
goal either, so I settled on collecting mint (brand new)
stamps from that country starting with the year of my
birth and going forward. But, gosh! There are soo many
stamps... Mint stamps, Plate Blocks, Air mail, Postage
Due, First Day Covers... The list goes on and on...

I'm sure you saw the analogy early on.

Like the Peter Principle in which everyone rises to the
heights of their maximum inefficiency, we all seem to
settle into the heights of our maximum amount of available
money and time before "reason" settles in.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I get it!. I'm trying not to get another tank! Pretty soon we'd be over run with them. I read a few articles on the MTS, and most said they usually can't be bought. They just hitchhike on a new plant. The snails that started in my tank after my plant purchases, were pond/pest snails. And it appears they've died down, or hide very damn good. I see "Moley" or what appears to look like the original snail. But Hell, only another snail can identify another snail. I've seen empty shells every once in a while when we vacuum the tank. But early on I had a sneaking idea the neons were trying to eat them. Every once in a while I'd catch them nipping at the glass. Only to look really close and see a tiny speck of a snail trying to high tail it away.
I've seen some "Blue mystery snails" (Apple snails?)at Pets***t. But I think they would be easy targets for the yo-yo's. (if we ever get them) I don't want to spend a lot if it's just going to become feed. They are very pretty though....

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Hi,
Many of our members have the MTS in their tanks and I
suspect that someone would be glad to send you a few.
However, as you said, despite their living primarily in
the gravel, the yo-yo's would make short thrift of them.

Skip the snails with those fish.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I remember adam being overrun with MTS in his largest tank, and that was stocked with half a dozen clown loaches and cichlids. Only way the tank isn't still overrun with MTS is that its sitting empty, collecting dustfishies.

A followup on the sponge squeezing scenario. City water kills tank bacteria. You never want to rinse your sponges under the tap if you get water from any sort of water treatment plant. Some houses with wells also add or process their water. Even houses with water tanks may filter or otherwise process their water. You would probably know if your water is treated at all. Currently my tanks run on rain water collected into two large tanks on the side of the house, no treatment whatsoever. Even with that I'm still in the habit of running water into a bucket from the fishtank, squeeze and rinse the sponges in that (depending on how long it's been they can be pretty mucky) then do the rotation and back to the filter.


I agree with the bulk carbon . You can buy little net bags at the LFS or you can make one yourself. Some people love running it in their water full time, even if they keep plants. I prefer to use it only when it's needed, but it'll be up to you and your bank account to decide.

On the fish purchasing, keep in mind that the smaller schooling fish are schooling for security and thats why we generally suggest schools of 6+. Some fish are more shoaling but they still like to be in their larger groups if they've got something bigger and more aggressive than themselves in the tank.

on your water readings! Remember to add the stock slowly, check your water readings, and still give the tank a few weeks to adjust.


^_^

Yeah, about that... Last night before going to sleep, we planned on getting the angels. This morning before I went to work, we agreed to wait 2 more weeks, because we couldn't figure out a "safe" number of juvie angels to get. (We worried about the odd man out syndrome as they grow, and money being short from the holidays, etc...) I get home from work to find my "other half" has gotten 3 juvie angels and 3 snails (I have to ID those.) Ah well, C'est La Vie... it's par for the course Who ever follows a plan? So now I will adjust the plan and wait a week or two for 3 more angels and another 2 weeks for the yo-yo's. Let's see how fast this plan goes straight to H***.

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}

Finally got a good look at the snails. (They were eating in the java moss) We have 3 apple snails. They're quite pretty, but not as big as the ones I saw at Pets***t. I guess that gives us time to watch them grow....

TTFN --->Ta-Ta-For-Now
Kelly ;o}