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Gang,

As some of you already know, I am (still) making plans for my 125G (72”long). One of the things that I thought I had figured out was the filtration; I planned to go with an Eheim 2028 Canister and an AquaClear 300 (now called 70) Hang On Back. I picked these 2 because they give me together a water filtration of about 5 times the tank volume per hour. In addition, adding a filter of Activated Carbon to the AquaClear is very easy and I would use it if I quickly would like to remove something from the water, like medication.

Over the last couple of days I became increasingly unsure if this is the right setup. As I intend to inject CO2, I begin to worry about the surface agitation created by the HOB. I have this filter now in my 29G and under full power there is a quite significant agitation.

The Eheim doesn’t create this problem as the spray bar can be placed way low in the tank.

Am I making myself crazy here, or do I have a legitimate reason for concern? What would, or do, you use?

Any input is very much appreciated,

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Odd...I have an AC 500 on the 30 gallon in the office. Currently isn't recieving CO2 but will be soon. Surface agitation is minimal. On my 20 @home I'm running a AC150 surface agitation is almost non existant except right near the outflow. The trick is to keep the water level topped off.

On the pond I'm running an AC 300 but allow the water level to drop by about 2" for the increased oxygenation and the soothing waterfall sounds .

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I have a one inch drop from AC500 output to the water surface. Surface agitation is minimal. Do test the AC size on the aquarium that you would like to purchase. The 300 may not fit on the 125G. I believe that this is true for the All-Glass 125 unless you were to trim the plastic on the tank edge.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hi,
Actually, you are knitpicking and driving yourself :%) .

With that size tank, you will not be using a DIY CO2
system. A bottled system can always be turned up to allow
for the agitation of the filter returns (within reason).

If you are using a HOB filter as I am, you can always add
a piece of plastic to the overflow (return) that the water
strikes and flows along into the tank reducing the agitation
to nothing. With the other style filters, you can always
plumb the returns to be below the surface again making the
agitation nothing.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

The surface agitation from an AC300 on a 125 would be really insignificant compared to the size of the tank. I do have to ask why you are using the AC in addition to the canister, I think it would be fine on its own for a planted tank. JMO but I think I would save the $30 or whatever and spend it on - what else? - more plants.

Gang,

Thank you so much for your input, Bob &#8211; good thought about the size of an AC 300.

Tryst, my thought on using the extra HOB is multifold:

1) As I stated above, it gives me an easy option for adding Activated Carbon to remove medication etc.
2) It increases the water filtration. The Eheim 2028 has a filter circulation of &#8220;only&#8221; 198GPH, which means that the tank water would not be filtered even twice per hour. Don&#8217;t you think that is low? The AC comes handy also in particular after messing with the plants and is easily cleaned.
3) There will be always one filter running during filter maintenance.
4) If one filter fails, the other is still capable to create solid living conditions for the fishies and plants (for a while).

Does that sound convincing to you?

Bob, what is your motivation on running this setup (I know you do, as I copied it from you, except for the 300 AC where you have a 500)?

Thanks in advance,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Tryst, my thought on using the extra HOB is multifold:

1) As I stated above, it gives me an easy option for adding Activated Carbon to remove medication etc.
2) It increases the water filtration. The Eheim 2028 has a filter circulation of &#8220;only&#8221; 198GPH, which means that the tank water would not be filtered even twice per hour. Don&#8217;t you think that is low? The AC comes handy also in particular after messing with the plants and is easily cleaned.
3) There will be always one filter running during filter maintenance.
4) If one filter fails, the other is still capable to create solid living conditions for the fishies and plants (for a while).

1) Why would you be dosing with your tank with meds? I'm shuddering just thinking about the cost to medicate a tank that size. Better yet why would you be dosing with meds at all? Seriously though, if you wanted that option I think it would be better to just keep the HOB around as a "spare." You could even run carbon all the time in the eheim if you wanted, if anybody gets sick, toss them in QT.
2) On a heavily planted tank 198 GPH from a canister would be great IMO. 300 GPH from an HOB is really insignificant on a large tank anyway. If you're looking for more water movement, stick a powerhead in there.
3 &amp; 4)It takes maybe 30 mins AT MOST to clean a filter if you're really slow. Your fish would be fine. If it dies: I have had a filter die on a _10_ gallon tank, on friday night, couldn't get to the LFS until monday and the tank was overstocked. No losses, everybody was just fine. In a 125 where you have dense planting, you would be OK even if the canister kicked the bucket/exploded/caught fire/got hit by a falling salvador dali print etc. In fact I believe you could easily go completely filterless on that tank if you wanted, although it is nice to have some water movement. "spare" filter laying around would make more sense in this case too.

Just my $0.02

Ingo,

I like backup equipment on aquariums. If I have two filters and one quits, I don't have a catastrophe. If I have two heaters (undersized for the aquarium) and one runs wild or quits, I don't have a catastrophe. The original cost and operating costs of the equipment are nominal to me in relation to the value of the fish.

Although I prefer a 4X to 5x filter turnover rate, Tryst makes a good point on the Eheim Pro II 2028 as it is rated up to a 158 gallon aquarium. The amount of bio-media in the unit makes turnover less of an issue. Unless the unit takes a dive when you are gone for a day or two.

I have had a flter stop functioning while I was gone on a three day business trip. It cost me two pairs of breeding discus. I no longer buy that filter and I now use back-up filters.

I have had a heater run wild and another shatter in the tanks. I no longer use the heater brand that ran wild but I will continue to purchase the Visitherms as the unit promptly and safely shut down!



__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Tryst,

Just my $0.02

Seriously, your words are worth much more than 2 cents and I value your input highly.

Now, to your latest points:

1) I had Ich in my current tank twice (yeah, I don&#8217;t have a QT). I cannot imagine getting all the fish out of a heavily planted125 because a) I would not be able to catch them and b) what size would a QT have to be for this purpose (not only Ich but any other illness that is contagious). Not to mention the fight I would have with my wife of getting another tank (don&#8217;t ask what it took to get her to agree to get a 125).

2) Please be so kind and explain the &#8220;300 GPH from an HOB is really insignificant on a large tank anyway&#8221; statement. That is more than the Canister would do. And no, I don&#8217;t want to have surface agitation.

3) and 4) &#8211; You convinced me on these points, except maybe for the occasional vacation when my neighbor will feed the fishies. But I always could hang it on just for that time (anticipating your response here )

Awaiting your response,

Ingo

EDIT: Bob, I was writing this as you posted it so I only see it now. Thanks for the info.

Last edited by Little_Fish at 29-Jul-2005 12:18

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

1) I had Ich in my current tank twice (yeah, I don&#8217;t have a QT). I cannot imagine getting all the fish out of a heavily planted125 because a) I would not be able to catch them and b) what size would a QT have to be for this purpose (not only Ich but any other illness that is contagious). Not to mention the fight I would have with my wife of getting another tank (don&#8217;t ask what it took to get her to agree to get a 125).

2) Please be so kind and explain the &#8220;300 GPH from an HOB is really insignificant on a large tank anyway&#8221; statement. That is more than the Canister would do. And no, I don&#8217;t want to have surface agitation.

1) Not a popular opinion on this site sometimes and I don't mean to offend anyone - BUT - healthy fish in a healthy tank don't usually get sick even with the introduction of a contagious pathogen, ich, flukes, columnaris, you name it. Intestinal flagellates seem to be more readily transferred even in some species of healthy fish IMO but there are exceptions to every rule. Stressed fish, on the other hand, seem to take every opportunity they get to attract illness. "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure" as they say, this method applies to aquariums too. A QT doesn't have to be large, I have even used a bucket with an airstone and a few plants for smaller fish, heavy duty rubbermaid bins work well too. It really just depends on the size of fish you're keeping, anything that will hold water and a bit of life support equipment is fine. So if you're getting new fish and you can't trust the source of them, keep them in QT for a few weeks before they go in the tank. Take care acclimatizing them and try to keep their lives as stress free as possible, that's really the best way to prevent disease. Fish are actually very resistant to disease as long as they aren't stressed in some way. I have only seen ich in one of my fish in the past 10 years or so, I bought her from the shop in bad shape and she broke out in spots within 48 hours. I was a bit reckless at the time before I saw spots and I'm sure I cross contaminated with my other tanks but not one of my other fish came down with it. That's the anecdotal evidence anyway, I have seen supporting evidence elsewhere but it'll take a bit of digging to find the articles etc.

If an occasion arises where you do have to pull a fish out to go in QT, IME sick fish are really slow and easy to catch. At least they're a lot slower than healthy ones.

There is more on the side of QTing a few unhealthy fish and leaving the rest. Medicating your aquarium is a huge stressor and I think especially in a large tank medicating the whole thing should be a last resort, save it for life and death situations. First of all your fish are already stressed out (a few sick ones are your indicator here). Your plants are not going to like the meds, even the ones that are supposedly OK for plants can affect growth especially in more sensitive specimens. Also any relatively healthy fish can become stressed from the treatment itself and come down with the offending illness, or even more annoying, something totally different! You can totally obliterate populations of microscopic critters including your beneficial bacteria, etc.

Meds in the aquarium are mostly chemical poisons. They work by being dosed at a level that will hopefully be tolerable by "higher" life forms (like fish) while being completely disastrous to lower pathogens that haven't developed the natural resistance to chemical poisons that fish have. This is also why overdosing is such a huge deal.

In a planted tank (especially high tech setups) you're already walking a tightrope to keep conditions artificially favourable to your plants and fish. Introducing chemicals in the form of medications can upset that balance you've been working so hard to achieve, with really disastrous results sometimes. Sorry to go on and on about it, it's an area that interests me.

2) A canister filter (especially something like the Eheim pro line) is MUCH more efficient than a HOB unit. What Bob mentioned about media capacity is the main point here. A canister holds a lot more than even the biggest HOB filter will, so it does a much better job of getting the water clean the first time it goes through. On an HOB you need the higher flow rate to make up for the lost media capacity and reduction in efficiency, you push the water through a small amount of media as often as you can to get the same effect. In general a regular canister is about twice as efficient as a HOB filter, more for a monster of a filter like the Eheim pro. I would choose the AC 300 for a tank under about 40 gallons (on my own tanks probably under 30 it's what I have on my 29 right now), the effect you would see on a 125 would be really minimal.

HTH, sorry for the long post.

EDIT - Sorry forgot to mention running a backup when you're away for a bit. I think it's an excellent idea, the AC 300 wouldn't do a whole lot but it could make a difference especially in keeping the water moving and at least a bit polished in the event of a meltdown.

Bob - Sorry about your loss of discus. Luckily I was there when my filter failed so I started pumping air into the tank like crazy right away. I can't imagine that would be nice to return home to after your trip. I have also had a few heater malfunctions, they are not fun at all. BTW this is why I have a box of backup equipment (my reserves) in the basement, if anything on my tank fails I always have something I can throw on in an emergency, spare heaters, filters, air pumps, bulbs, you name it.

Last edited by trystianity at 29-Jul-2005 14:49

Tryst,

Your posts can be as long as they have to be, I really appreciate a detailed explanation over a brief summary at any time.

Thanks for this insight; you made many very valid points. I guess I will have to re-evaluate my plan for the tank (not by much though). NOT having the HOB actually comes in handy when deciding where I will place the CO2 reactor, but that&#8217;s a different problem that might be worth its own thread

Again, thank you soooooooo much,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

One definite benefit of a canister is that you can plumb an external reactor right into the lines to chop the bubbles into tiny pieces. Very cool.

You're welcome btw


EDIT: sorry I was looking for a few links about pressurized systems.....a good place to start is this resource list:

http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/AquaticPlants.htm#High%20Pressure%20CO2

And some really nice DIY inline reactor plans (I dunno if you're a DIYer ):

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=2958

edit again: this link is cool too, same thing basically but a bit more in depth

http://www.hoftiezer.net/personal/aquaria/aquaria_construction_co2reactor.htm

Last edited by trystianity at 29-Jul-2005 15:25

Tryst,

Thanks for your condolences, but stuff happens. The main point is that equipment redundancy can be a lifesaver. Had I redundant filtration, the discus would not have died. The good news was that redundant heaters prevented a potential fish loss. For my money, redundancy is good.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Tryst,

All this work that you are doing just to help me, that is sooooo nice. Hopefully some day I know something that you don&#8217;t know and I can return the favor.

Regarding the CO2, I already had a thread about this topic and I guess we figured out what I should get. Matt, Renoharps, and Bernard helped me on this one.

Maybe you want to take a look at it, it&#8217;s [link=RIGHT HERE]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/61685.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link].

Sounds good?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

If you plan on having a heavily planted tank and treating for ich then you can say goodbye to the plants. There are few if any effective ich treaments that plants can take. When my new little plecos got ich in the planted tank I left them alone. I couldn't catch them anyway. Healthy fish in a healthy tank do not get ich. Every other fish in the tank was fine. Fish in a healthy tank will recover from ich. The plecos were soon out and about with no spots without treatment.
With a tank that size I would definitely qt. The number of fish you could lose and the amount it would cost to medicate as well as the damage such medications could cause to plants or biofilter is just not worth the risk. An easy space saving way to set up qt for a big tank is to put another tank or rubbermaid container in the bottom of the stand. It's also a good place to keep live food cultures such as the snails to feed to my puffer and loaches.
I can understand wanting a backup filter since I'm going to continue running one of my penguin filters along with my cannister on the new 90g but I wouldn't use it for chemical filtration. Adding the carbon to the hob is going to be alot less effective than adding it to the canister. I just plan to use mine as backup biofiltration and water movement.