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What is the ambient room temperature? What is the temperature outside? What's the heater set at?

I'd want the temp to be at least a couple degrees cooler. If it's hotter outside, and AC isn't an option, you should open up the top and get some fans going to evaporate the water faster, thus cooling it down. The only drawback is the need to top up more frequently, and possible fish jumpings...but that could be fixed using eggcrate.

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Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

Abient room temp is 76 or so. but from 7am-2am it gets warmer (AC is off). It is warming up out side for the summer so it has a range from 70-90F, but I can't open the windows because they are just 'pretty' windows that don't open.

The heater doesn't have a number to be set at; just a dial, sortof. It is set at less than half of its max power.

How would the fan work because I am already taking up all of my "roof" space with 2 light fixtures and 2 filters.

Could I just turn down the heater all the way or turn it off all together?


~Morgan~

If your room temperature is 76 degrees then you would not need a heater at all. In fact, I believe that even without a heater your tank temperature will rise above room temperature with the lights above the tank.

The problem I see would be the time period when the AC is on. What is the room temp. during that time?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think I might have gotten misunderstood:

The room's temperature when the AC in on is 76F
When the AC is off, it can be around 82 degrees.

I think it is the lights above the tank because it was never that high when I didn't have them on.

So turn off the heater?

EDIT: I think I see what the problem might be. I just checked the temp for the tank: 80F. The room temp is 76F. I just stuck my hand in the tank and it is COOL! So, I think my thermometer is broken . Could this be it?
(I am going to get a new one this weekend anyway, this one won't suction to the tank.)


~Morgan~

Morgan,

I can see a tank being 80F if the room is 82F, even without lights on. It sure is not a bad idea to validate the thermometer readings, but I wouldn't put my hopes up too high. Your feeling of the coldness of the water may well be based on your body temp (higher than 80F, I hope ) and the sensation of wetness on the fingers/hand/arm.

If the problem persists, a fan can help, at least with blowing away the heat generated by the lights. I would suggest that, if your new thermometer comes to the same conclusions, you create a specific thread with the temp issue to attract a specific audience with experience in this field, a lot of our Aussie folks have these issues and a few others as well (not me, being in NJ).

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It sure is not a bad idea to validate the thermometer readings,

yeah, will do, I just have to wait 'til this weekend.

Your feeling of the coldness of the water may well be based on your body temp

it probably is, but I have felt 80 degree water 2 weeks prior and it felt warmer to me...

you create a specific thread

which forum? water quality?

And thanks for adding some input!


~Morgan~

which forum? water quality?

I would put it in the General Freshwater forum as it is a general problem (and gets the largest exposure from viewers).

And - you are welcome

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

WEEK 2:

Good news on the temperature: I got it to stay down to a max of 80. I actually broke 70's yesterday (even though it was only 79 but still a victory none the less).

I didn't get my otto today . They were all out. expect him to come next weekend though

Plants are growing well, and diatoms haven't taken off on the wisteria yet. I think it might be growing too fast for it.
I have an issuse though. My hornwort seems to be deteriorating...its needles are getting brownish at the tips. Any suggestions?

Full tank:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-5001.jpg
Hornwort:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-5002.jpg
(Sorry the pictures are kinda bad; I will try to get better ones later)
Enjoy!


~Morgan~

Here are the better images as promised.

Full Tank
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-6001.jpg
Hornwort
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-6002.jpg

Could someone help me with my hornwort please?
Thanks.


~Morgan~

Hi,
Your hornwort can be a very delicate plant as in weak light
or poor water conditions, it will turn yellowish green and
the needles will fall off.

Here is a site that tells you a bit about the plant:
http://www.gardenandleisure.com/products/wnr126.html

Note that in the wild, it is now a noxious plant in that it
is so hardy that it takes over a waterway. But, that is
when it is exposed to bright sunlight.

Your tank, by your own initial post is a low light tank
of a watt to perhaps a watt and a half and you are trying
to grow-out a plant that needs at the very least, 2 watts
per gallon and would do much better with 3+wpg.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

Week 3:

I took out the hornwort, (thanks Frank for the info) and I added a HUGE crypt and it was the same price as the other plants so I just couldn't resist! I also added some Elodia and I hope that will do well. I have moved my compact sword to the right of the rock formations; the Elodia is behind the wisteria on the left side of the rocks and the large crypt (I think it is the same thing as my mid-sized ones) is in the back-right corner in the sand bed.

Diatoms is getting pretty bad (I could have sworn it was pearling the other day but it was probably the filter bubbles) and I still have not gotten my ottos! My LFS told me they would be there on thursday and lo and behold, they are not there.

The wisteria by the filter intake is nearly to the water surface and will be due for a trim soon. (gotta love those fast-growers!)

All my fish are doing fine, no sign of illness.

Enought talk, here are the pictures:
Full: http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-13001.jpg
Right: http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-13002.jpg
Left: http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-13003.jpg

I'm off to do a water change, enjoy!


~Morgan~

I could have sworn it was pearling the other day but it was probably the filter bubbles

Morgan,

Algae makes an excellent bubbler. Naturally, my tanks don't bubble often, usually only after a water change, but when I have some algae then there are bubbles as well . So it sure can be that you saw bubbles.

You are right, your Diatoms are multiplying nicely, it really would be time for the Otos.

I am glad your fast growers are growing well and will need a trimming soon,replant the top and keep the bottom in so you can increase the plant mass, your fish will appreciate it.

Have fun,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

your Diatoms are multiplying nicely

You make it sound like I want to grow them. Oh well, at least the ottos will have a feast when they get here!

I might try to get them during the week, but it might not be until next weekend.


~Morgan~

Yes Morgan,

I didn't want to sound like an alarmist. Diatoms are not the worst kind of algae, so no need to overreact. Nevertheless, try not to let it get out of control. Always try to remove as much of it as you can during maintenance.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here is a shot of the "bubbly diatoms"
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/bubblydiatoms001.jpg

And thanks Ingo for the reply. You don't sound like an alarmist, (I was just being kinda sarcastic...thats me for ya ) but I know that there is worse than diatoms but at least they are easy to control with ottos. I just want my tank to be perfectly clean like it was BP (before plants)(but then again, I probably asked for it with a planted tank ).


~Morgan~

Otocinclus catfish will eat Brown Diatoms like candy!
They are fairly inexpensive as well. IMO 3-5 would clear out a 20 gallon within 48-72 hours of the Brown Diatoms..

Thanks dmarkham for the reply (it's always good to see new people in my thread).
I would get more ottos, but I would rather just have to feed them on diatoms instead of supplementing with zuchini. I mean, once all the diatoms are gone, there will be plenty of hungry ottos! And I also want to save room for my initial stocking.
So that's why I am only going to get 2 (even if it takes them a week to get rid of them all ).


~Morgan~

I would get more ottos, but I would rather just have to feed them on diatoms instead of supplementing with zuchini. I mean, once all the diatoms are gone, there will be plenty of hungry ottos!

Morgan,

Check out like the first 10 to 20 pages of my 40G log. You will come accross the timeframe when I added Otos, supplemented their diet with cucumber slices, and then left them on their own to find food.

As a matter of fact, once your tank is a little more stable it will create more than enough food for at least 4 otos. Otos are also so small that they barely add to your bio load.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the reply,

You sure it won't be too crowded? I am not really focusing on the bio-load on the tank, but the room for 4 of them, 5 cories, a ram and 8 BN Tetras. I am worried about the cories and them competing for the same space (and probably the ram too). I am kinda stressing (just a little though) over this because I want it to work out near-perfect and want my fishies to have enough space.


~Morgan~

Otos are wonderful! I hope you have good luck with them, they can be sensitive, especially since yours will be fresh in at the dealer. Having a nice big algae meal awaiting them will help lower the stress of a new home. Don't worry too much about them competeing with the cories for room. IME, otos spend no time at all on the tank bottom (unless on an algae covered rock or something). They are always on the move and prefer the glass walls and the plant leaves for perches. The cories and otos completely ignore each other's presence.

Don't get more unless you really want them. You could try two at first, see how they do on the algae, then add more if needed. Watch their bellies too. A skinny oto is an unhappy oto... That would mean it was time to supplement something.

BTW, I like your stocking choices. Should be a nice tank!

Mofish , Hi , I wound't be worried about the Oto's . It seems to me they will be fine with what you have planned . By the way do you plan to have any plants around your "river " of rocks in the foreground ?

Thanks lioness for the reply and the information on the ottos. I think I will do that and just get more ottos if I think I would need them. And thank you for complementing my stocking choice, I have always wanted to do that but all of my friends keep throwing fish at me to take care of because they are to lazy to, but I said 'ENOUGH! I want this tank to be what I want it to be.' (and then the log started )

Also thank you country fish. The future planting should end up being that the sand bed (on the right) will be FULL of crypts and the left side (gravel) will be somewhat sparse with mainly wisteria bordering the rocks, but the actutal black/rust(because of the diatoms) river rocks will not have anything planted in them.

Thanks again for the replies and I hope you will follow my thread!

EDIT: here is my future vision using copy-paste in 'Paint'
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/future.jpg


~Morgan~

Morgan,

Your future vision, and your copy paste skills, are very good

I cannot ignore the notion of only 2 Otos. I would advise against that. Here are a few reasons:

- Otos are schoalers and more happy in a group setting, and 2 is not quite a group
- Otos are shipped from Asia and it happens sadly enough rather often that not all of them make it.
- Otos are such "non-offensive" fish that you barely will notice them in the tank, from a visual and a bio-load perspective. You definately can handle 4.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes thank you Ingo. I have decided to get four of them but that darn LFS still haven't gotten them!

not too much happened this week but I did a little trimming. enjoy!

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-21.jpg


~Morgan~

MoFish, I'm not sure where you're at, but do you have a Petsmart within driving distance? They carry otos on a regular basis and at a pretty decent price.

I do have another question, just out of curiousity - why do you have your plants planted right up against the edges of the tank (the big crypt in particular)?

Listen! Do you smell that?

I don't want to get into the old debate over buying fish at a Pet-this or Pet-that, but I for sure would like to raise a warning:

There are huge quality differences between all kinds of stores, including the large chains and the LFSs. Not only when comparing one chain with another, but even within the same chain but a different location, does one find major differences in fish and other critter quality. There are many factors attributing to this behavior, one of which is "the person in charge" of the fish section.

Anyway, I would advise to carefully peruse the isles of fish in no-matter what store to get a feeling for how well the tanks are maintained. Lots of dead fish - not a good sign. Tanks with Ich but not under quarantine - not a good sign. And so forth.

And if all seems good, and if the store then has Otos as well, for sure go ahead and buy them.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

thanks lysaer and ingo for the reply,

yes I do have a petsmart near me and they do not carry ottos at all. i do have a LFS kind of close to me but they carry mostly cichlids and goldfish/koi.

and the reason why I have all my plants on the right side of the tank butted against the glass is because the whole sand bed is going to be planted with plants so it will be easier to plant the plants that way.

also thank you ingo for the warning about chain stores. I always pick out my fish miticulusly (sp).


~Morgan~

ARG! Must do a small rant on chain stores! We have a "Pet-this" (I love that term!) here in town and I do not think they are capable of maintaining any tank without ick. Their poor gouramis are particularly bad. To make it worse, they put the fish on sale increadibly cheap so some poor person is going to buy that sick fish and get all of their old fish sick too. Then back to the pet store to buy MORE sick fish.... Last time I was in the store they had orange and yellow "glofish" which were so obviously innocent zebra danios full of flourescent dye. Horrible! Anyway, I just prefer to support my LFS in every case possible. Their prices may be a few cents more but their quality and staff are excellent and unsurpassed in this area. I want them to stick around, my money isn't going to that big chain store!

Sorry about that... Keep in mind too, when checking out a fish dealer, that just because you don't see dead fish doesn't mean that they aren't dropping like flies. Maybe the staff are just very good about removing dead ones! Try to visit a store often, if possible, to get a better idea of how the fish are maintained. It can be tough to find a quality store sometimes!

Wherever you may choose to get them, good luck with your fish!

haha don't worry about you rant lioness, we ALL do it.

I have a small issue:
I had trimmed my wisteria (the one in the back) and it doesn't look like it would grow back. I cut it right where the "sections" met.
could some one help me?
thanks!


~Morgan~

Is it the top or bottom half that doesn't want to grow? You trimmed it on the 21st? Likely this is just a patience issue. It will take the plant a while to recover from the trimming. If it is the top half that doesn't grow...pinch off the lowest leaves when you plant it, this will encourage new roots to form and those low leaves could probably rot anyway. The new plant has to expend energy making new roots so it won't make new leaves for a while. If it is the bottom half that isn't growing...I don't know what to tell you other than wait longer. If it looks otherwise healthy you just need to give it more time...it doesn't hurt to make sure it isn't being shadowed or anything too.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have checked your trim picture before posting...bad bad me! You are refering to the tall wisteria in the back left? I don't see any reason why the leaves shouldn't come back. I just recently chopped up my first wisteria so can't offer experience on how long it will take, but with all my other stem plants a little bud group of new leaves will start off the edge of the cut and then take off from there. It will take some time though...have faith.

thanks for the reply lioness
and yes it is the bottom half.

so i guess that means i have to be patient now, doesn't it?


~Morgan~

In my experience, a trimmed bottom part of a wisteria stem is not always coming back. Sometimes, the only reason the stem did not die before the trimming was the fact that the top part was healthy and supplied the plant with enough "juice" to keep on growing. Once that part is trimmed off then there is not enough energy producing matter left to keep it up. On some of these occasions, the stem withers away rather quickly, on others, the balance between getting enough to grow and not having any new energy producing engine is tilted slightly one or the other way - this can conclude in minimal growth of the old part of the plant, or static appearance, or slow disintegration.

But in general, it is rather normal that one does not see new growth one day after trimming (as lioness said).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo for the input. Now that you mention it, it looks like to me that it could be a possibility that the wisteria doesn't grow back because the other leaves are the "above water" type and are getting old and falling off so I may just have to get some more wisteria but I will wait a while to make sure that it goes one way or another before I do anything.

I also noticed something that could be good news! I think that the diatoms are "toping out" because a lot of the old stuff that I don't scrape off (like the river rocks and gravel) are starting to turn a grey-ish color and it appears to be dying off. Could this be happening? but the diatoms on the plants is still going strong. What could it be?


~Morgan~

Hm,

that is an intriguing observation on the Diatoms, boggeling my mind

You know probably that they are actually tiny critters and not algae, right? They thrive on silica that is often found in new tanks and in particular in certain sands. Once you run out of excess silica then the population dies, but I don't remember if they change color (may well be though). Why they are still going on the leaves, I can only guess: As they are usually not the type of critter that floats, they prefer to stay put . The ones on the plants may be feeding on the silica in the water column that floats by. But somehow that does make not much sense, as water flows by the substrate as well . So - in what areas are the Diatoms turning gray?

In this phase of the tanks life one can never have enough fast growers. If you have easy access to Wisteria and other fast growers and if you can afford it then adding more of them for the time being is never a bad idea, as long as they are healthy. And give your wisteria stem some time, maybe move it into the brightest spot of the tank. If the stem is all mush then remove it as it would be already dead and only pollute the water.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Here's a link with the circled parts that are turning grey.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/MoFish_11525/5-23.jpg

I think I might just go today and get some more plants . Now when my mom has to take me to the petstore I can tell her that "I can never have enought fast-growers. Geez mom!"

and the wisteria stem isn't mushy so I'll watch for that.
thanks!


~Morgan~

Hi,
Diatoms are a microscopic single cell plant. They secrete
walls of Silica (Si) as they grow. They get the Silica from
the silica (SiO2) dust found in our quartz based gravel.
New tanks, especially ones with regular gravel that
has not been throughly washed, and rewashed are
especially vulnerable to an outbreak of diatoms.
Occasionally too, our water supplies can contain SiO2
and in enough density cause outbreaks.

Once the source of Silica is used up or depleted the
diatoms will die off. You can either purchase Otto's to
eat the diatoms (they love it) or regular water changes
and gravel vacuuming will eventually remove most of the
Silica and the outbreak will cease.

In your case, as they die off, I would be cleaning the
now grayish coatings off everything and siphoning it out
of the tank.

Frank


-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

UH OH!!!

I have just discovered what I think is BBA - it's a deep/bright green that is on my small crypt and partly on some of the rocks. Can some one help me? I am going to remove the affected areas from the tank except the big rocks.

A quick over view of the tank:
the trimed wisteria stem is growing back. it has 2 tiny leaves that are about half a cenimeter. The top half has sprouted roots and is starting to grow again. The big crypt is not doing so well. The leaves are slowly dying off and no new growth. No new fish have been added (still no sign of the ottos )

EDIT: i think i just ID this as blue-green algea.


~Morgan~

Morgan,

There is a big difference between BBA and BGA, it should be easy for you to identify it:

BBA - grows in bushels and is hard to remove from its spot, you have to rip it off. What helps is the removal of the leaf on which it grows, or - if the leaf is healthy (as this could be a slow grower like anubias) then spot treatment with Excel will do the trick. The latter also is good for irremovable (as in cleaning outside the tank and placing it back in) hardware, like sticks, rocks, and equipment.

BGA is growing in a film that can easily be wiped off. It is often caused by the presents of nutrients in the water column with a lack of Nitrates at the same time, or by stagnant areas in the tank (as in no water flow). It can be treated by correction of the issues mentioned above, an immediate remedy (but not fixing the problem in the long run) would the addition of half dosages of Maracyn Freshwater from Mardel for about 4 to 5 days.

Otherwise, glad to hear your plants are growing, crypts often tend to melt when replanted, but they may come back.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks Ingo, i believe it is BGA.

I don't think it is caused (in my case) from stagnant water - I have 2 filters in there and the areas that are affected have enough water disturbance.

I am about to go on vacation so I wont be able to treat it with the chemicals.
I will test for nitrates (to see how low they are) and post the results later.
Thanks!


~Morgan~

Well, I got back from my vacation and I came home to find a tank with a lot of algea in it!

There is a lot of bright green "fern" looking algea that is attached to the glass. i tried rubbing it off with my algea magnet glass cleaner thing but it is on there very well. could this be beard algea after all? It is growing in small tufts - to get one little "tuft" off, I had to scrape it with my finger nail... I can't post a picture of it because my camera won't focus on stuff that close (and yes, i've tried everything)

the tank other wise seems to be doing fine, a lot of growth and no dead leaves or anything; the diatoms have died down although they still rage on the glass.

I won't be posting a full tank pic. until i get this algae stuff off. can anyone help me?




~Morgan~