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How much can I really expect this thing to lower my pH with a biowheel running, and a sponge filter? I would rather it not go to far as I enjoy the luxury of being able to pull fish out for treatment as needed and into a hospital tank. If the pH goes down several tenths, it will not be as easy of a process.

pH reading this AM was very close to last nights reading, but a tad lighter. Maybe it was 7.4 or 7.45 . Either way, it was close enough to 7.5.

This is my baseline for morning and night to compare once the device starts to work. I've been watching the water in the tube from when I set it up and it has now finally turned the corner and is in the straight away. The cold temp in my basement, I'm sure, has much to do with how slow it is to start.

Hi,
Here we go again...
Unless your tank is stocked to resemble a tank
full of "feeders" at the LFS, you do NOT, repeat,
NOT have to turn off the CO2 at night, NOR do you need
to use an airstone for any reason.

It makes absolutely no sense to spend time and money to
inject CO2 into a tank to reach a saturation benificial
to plants, only to drive it off during the night and
start over again the next morning.

IF and ONLY IF your fish are gasping at the surface the
next morning, THEN you should add an airstone.

It's completly senseless, and the result of a few
extrapolating the worst case scenerio and then trying
to prevent it.

Some folks with a bottled system use a a controler, a
fancy mini computer, to regulate the pH, CO2 injection,
and Airstones. A pH probe is connected to the controler,
and the controler is set to maintain a specific pH.
when the pH rises, a voltage is sent to a solenoid to
open the CO2 gas line, and CO2 is injected until the
pH drops to the preset limit. At night the solenoid,
and system is shut off and the timer turns on the air
stone. The theory is "why waste CO2 when it is not
needed?" And so they spend hundreds of dollars for
all the parts to make their gas tanks last a few days or
weeks longer. All that, when a 10lb bottle costs
$9 and some change to refill.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 07-Feb-2005 14:34

-->>> The Confidence of Amateurs, is the Envy of Professionals <<<--

I agree with Frank, and have actually tested the pH readings, day and night with CO2 between 15 and 24ppm during the day. The shift caused when I turn the CO2 off or throw in an airstone at night was actually larger than when I left the CO2 running without an airstone, by about .4. I would belive that turning off the CO2 or adding an airstone would irritate my fish more than leaving it on since I have never seen my fish gasping at night. Add that to the hassle, and it's definitely not worth it IME.

---

Critical Fertilator: The Micromanager of Macronutrients

I'm going to just let it run and monitor closely, especially the first few days.

Anyone have any idea how long one bottle of this stuff will run? I'm not so sure it will last 28 days as it suggests.

I would estimate that I had put in 3/4 cup of sugar (to the mark on the bottle). One packet of activator which I believe to be baking soda and yeast. Both were about as much as a sugar packet. The rest was filled with water. The cannister is only about 8 inches tall before the lid goes on, give or take.

I'm just thinking about such devices, including DIY. Is the rate dependent on temp? If so, it ought to last me a bit at 69F . I just keep thinking that if my basement was 80F, it would bubble faster, no? Not that I want it to, I'm just trying to understand these things.

I'm aware of the pH controllers used on more expensive units. I've seen them in the catalogs.

Last edited by Cory_Di at 07-Feb-2005 17:05

DI, Link me to the thing you bought please.

Here ya go, Shannen:

[link=http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/F12/Class/Fish+Supplies+CO2+Systems/T1/F12+0171+0966/EDP/34560/Itemdy00.aspx]http://www.thatpetplace.com/Products/KW/F12/Class/Fish+Supplies+CO2+Systems/T1/F12+0171+0966/EDP/34560/Itemdy00.aspx" style="COLOR: #C000C0[/link]

Good price there too, but I notice there are none in stock.

One word of caution. I discovered one of my rasboras trapped like a rat behind the ladder. I'm so glad I have it positioned where I could see him and that I was close by when it happend. He would have died of shock in there, and maybe from co2 poisoning if the bubbles had been in flow as he was right in the path.

The poor thing swam behind into what looked like 1/8 inch opening, then got confused by the fact that the ladder was completely glass-clear. Instead of just swimming through, he was trying to swim into the plastic. He panicked and was going wild. I released the upper two suction cups and out he swam, unharmed. I wish the ladder allowed for adjustable distance to glass. It should either be flush or allowed to sit out in a way that is wider than any fish in the tank.

It's still not running yet, but the water in the hose is getting closer to the outlet so pressure is building, albeit slow.

Di,

http://www.sfbaaps.com/reference/table_01.shtml

The above link will take you to a table that illustrates the relationship between pH, KH and absorbed CO2. If you know your pH and your KH, you can find the value of your CO2 absorption in the aquarium. Given a pH of 7.5 and a KH of 3.64, you would have 2.6 - 4.1 CO2 mg/l. in your aquarium.

If your CO2 is effectively dissolved into your water, then your measure of CO2 will increase. Assuming that KH is stable, the measure of higher levels of CO2 will be a decrease in pH. A 6.8 pH in your aquarium will mean that you have effectively raised your CO2 absorption to 16.4 mg/l. If your KH is 8 and your CO2 absorption is 14.9 mg/l, your pH will read 7.2, a much smaller shift in pH.

Czy podobala ci sie moja odpowiedz?

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Good idea with the airstone, but I'm afraid automation is out of the question - no more outlets. I've really maxed it out. What's worse is that the stupid strips don't always have enough space in beween where you plug stuff in and timers take up the space of 1.5. I have strips with a provision for a bigger thing, but to put more than one timer in it, a bunch would need to be like that. I have a floor lamp automated to go on an hour before tank lights and stays on an hour after. I have the tank light automated. That's all I get

I think the bottom line from this thread is that there is no one right way, but many possible ways, each one right for different people. After all, there are many different variables in tanks, and you will only know what's right for you after you've started adding CO2 and saw how it affects your tank.

Good luck and keep us posted, yes?

FINALLY!!! - A bubble - It took nearly 60 hours to produce that first bubble. It's kind of rough moving, but I understand as the ladder gets a coating they will glide more carefully. I just checked to make sure it is straight and it is.

How much can I really expect this thing to lower my pH with a biowheel running, and a sponge filter?

Well, I don't think you will have to worry about a pH drop if your Hagen unit is producing 1 bubble every two and a half days.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

ROFL Bob..

Is it still going that slow Di?

Uh-hmmm, we are up to about 1 bubble every few minutes

I have plans of putting the cannister atop the light fixture for a few hours to speed things up.

That should help.

Something else you can do is put the canister in a bucket with warm water, which will greatly speed up things. You could also pop a small heater in there to keep things going...

Well, I took the plunge (and the lazy way out) and bought a Hagen co2 device. I'm so happy because they have a way to compensate for smaller tanks than 20 gallons. I don't know how my tank will respond with the biowheel and sponge filter running and I may get no net effect with the thing running at the 20 gallon stop. I'm going to slow my biowheel just a tad.

The literature got me confused tho. I always knew that pH would rise and fall with co2 levels. co2 goes up; pH heads south and vice versa. But the literature that came with it takes about the kH changing.

How do planted tanks alter kH? Is it the plants taking nutrients? For the longest time, my kH has been steady at 65 ppm. I don't know what this translates to in dKH, but the new kit has it at 9 dkH. The kit has changed in the way it measures (use to be ppm) so I can't compare old and new. I just know the old kit took over 6 drops, the new one took 9. But, I have far fewer plants now. I have only 1 sparse sprig of hornwort versus a several bunches back then and about 3-4 tiger val, versus 1. I have other plants like anubias nana (2), java fern (1) and banana plants (3), as well as java moss, but not the level of hornwort.

Would this affect kH?

Does adding co2 affect kH? If so, is it because the plants take up calcium with added co2?

I'm confused :%)

Last edited by Cory_Di at 05-Feb-2005 19:55

I agree with untitled..

Adding an airstone to come on after lights out is the answer to your problem.

I agree with Bensaf. Doing your homework is fine so you'll know what to expect, but essentially, doing it would be the best way to learn, and I think that with a DIY or Hagen's system there's not much of a risk. I also don't think you're running into the risk of a pH crash. What you're doing with going for the 5 gallon mark and then up is the best thing to do. CO2 is really not frightening.

Although I run CO2 only during the day, there is a cheap solution to your problem: air stone. With CO2 fertlisation, you need to stop your air pump during the day to prevent too much surface agitation, which allows more CO2 to escape. If your tank is well planted, your plants will produce enough oxygen for your fish. During the night the plants respire CO2 and you need to aerate your water anyway, and so some of your CO2 will be driven off. What you need are two timers: One to set the light going on in the morning and off in the night, another to set the air pump to go on when the lights go off and go off when the lights go on.

There still might be a pH swing there, but I've never had anything that made my fish unhappy.