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so, it's back. ]

Not nearly as bad as before, but it's making a comeback. Part of it may be my fault. Since then I have upped my lights from 1.3wpg to 2.4 wpg without adding significant amounts of CO2... I also havent been diligent about adding ferts regularly.

My question is: If I give my tank a really good cleaning - remove affected leaves (more like affected plants - there go my vals , scrub driftwood with a tooth brush and really clean, if not replace sections of gravel - PLUS add pressurized CO2 which I was planning on doing anyway, will this help me to bet the BGA back under control? I mean, I know any CO2 is better than no CO2 but will the addition of significant amount of CO2 help contribute to holding down the BGA, albeit indirectly? I dont think it's at a level where I need to do another black out, but I dont want it to get that far...

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Back in the saddle!

Hi,
Read the information on this site:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/algcontags.htm

The returning algae is not from the injection or
non-injection of CO2. High nitrates, high phosphates,
more light than necessary, are the main causes.
Frequent 10-20% water changes, depending upon stocking,
and filtration, and good maintenance, together with
lots of plants, will arrest the algae.

Blackouts and even drugs will kill it off, but it will
come right back if you do not resolve the issues that
cause it.

Frank


Last edited by FRANK at 01-Dec-2004 16:43

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I understand what you're saying Frank. I don't think I have high nitrates or phosphates, though. Ive been using a phosphate absorber and i keep nitrates steady at 15-20 ppm, which I dont consider high. You're right about too much light though, but "too much" light is relative. I have very low CO2 but 2.4 wpg of light, which I feel is too much for that amount of CO2 (which i believe is around 3ppm) - but that's why I'm asking if adding pressurized CO2 will allow my plants to use that available light better, so that I no longer have "too much" light and more of a balance... will that help at all or will I just wind up with fast growing plants and faster growing BGA?

Last edited by nowherman6 at 02-Dec-2004 13:45

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Back in the saddle!

"Not nearly as bad as before, but it's making a comeback. Part of it may be my fault. Since then I have upped my lights from 1.3wpg to 2.4 wpg without adding significant amounts of CO2... I also havent been diligent about adding ferts regularly."

Which ferts?
If you have been dosing KNO3, then it should not have come back.

Low NO3 levels will cause it to appear.
When you added more light, the plants used up more CO2 and then went after the NO3.

Now you low levels of NO3, CO2 and with a PO4 absorber(Take this out, you do not need it, it does much more harm than good)no PO4 either.

" If I give my tank a really good cleaning - remove affected leaves (more like affected plants - there go my vals ), scrub driftwood with a tooth brush and really clean, if not replace sections of gravel - PLUS add pressurized CO2 which I was planning on doing anyway, will this help me to bet the BGA back under control?"

It will help the tank, it will not cause the BGA to go away though. You need to start adding KNO3.

" I mean, I know any CO2 is better than no CO2 but will the addition of significant amount of CO2 help contribute to holding down the BGA, albeit indirectly?"

No, it help the BGA if you are not adding KNO3.

" I dont think it's at a level where I need to do another black out, but I dont want it to get that far... "

Clean the tank good and add KNO3.
If it comes back then, then you will need to do a black out for 3 days and then that will take care of it for good as long as you add enough KNO3 each week.

You wanted the long term solution, I just gave it to you.

" I don't think I have high nitrates or phosphates, though."

I highly doubt your NO3 is high. PO4 either if you are using PO4 remover.

" Ive been using a phosphate absorber and i keep nitrates steady at 15-20 ppm, which I dont consider high."

Mine are the same. are you sure about this level?
Do you add KNO3? Few non CO2 tank owners do so there is part of the issue.

Do weekly water changes and add this back and then once more during the week.

"You're right about too much light though, but "too much" light is relative. I have very low CO2 but 2.4 wpg of light, which I feel is too much for that amount of CO2 (which i believe is around 3ppm) - but that's why I'm asking if adding pressurized CO2 will allow my plants to use that available light better, so that I no longer have "too much" light and more of a balance... will that help at all or will I just wind up with fast growing plants and faster growing BGA?"

No, you are thinking right.
More light means =&gt; more CO2 uptake which means =&gt; more NO3 uptake which means more K+ uptake which means=&gt; more PO4 uptake which means more =&gt; Trace elements uptake.

Adding more light increases the rate of growth.
You need to add more of each nutrient when you increased the lighting.

A very simple way to do deal with this is using ferts and water changes.

Once the CO2 is well set, it will require little work.
Then large weekly water changes will prevent anything from building up and frequent dosing, 2-3x a week will prevent anything from running.

I dose 3 things:
KNO3 for the K and the NO3
KH2PO4 for the PO4
Traces.

That's it.
www.gregwatson.com sell these cheap.
I can use a teaspoon to dose
Very easy, very simple and very accurate vs cheap test kits and chasing your tail.

If you tell me the KH/GH and the volume of the tank, I can tell you what bpH to set the tank at using the CO2 to get the right level and how much of these ferts to dose to get a precise range that is stable and will grow the plants like you will not believe. The "how" is fairly easy.

Regards,
Tom Barr










Regards,
Tom Barr



Last edited by plantbrain at 03-Dec-2004 20:58

hi plantbrain, thanks for the info.

i guess i should say that i tried to use your method (found on other threads) the first time i tried to get rid of the BGA. i cleaned, did the blackout, then started dosing KNO3. it's a 46 gallon tank and i used about 1/4 teaspoon. for a while that seemed to be working, but i added more fish after that. since i assumed the main reason for using it was for the NO3, i stopped dosing it when my stock levels kept my nitrates up. it's come back since then.

"Which ferts?
If you have been dosing KNO3, then it should not have come back."

other than the KNO3, ive been dosing trace elements, that's it.

i just tested my water:

nitrates: 10ppm
kH: 3
gH: 5

and the PO4 remover is gone.

so, my stock is enough to keep nitrates up to 10ppm. are you suggesting that i should still dose KNO3(stump remover)?

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Back in the saddle!

Herman,

If your stock is enough to keep your nitrates at 10 ppm, would doubling the frequency of your water changes reduce your nitrates to 5 ppm?

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

it may, but i'd like to up the nitrates to the 20ppm range rather than lower them. plant food

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Back in the saddle!

Hmm, I've had a problem with BGA in this one tank before, my 5.5G.
For a while I thought it was my Nitrates, because everything else was fine. Once that was under control again, I've recently thought it was my phosphate, I've added in Seachem's Phosgaurd for about... 2 or 3 weeks now, and haven't noticed a change honestly. So I don't think it's the phosphates either.

I'm really pretty lost at what causes it for this case.
For me, what I'm doing to get a head start on this BGA and stop it in it's tracks.
Remove all the BGA I can by hand, under cool running water, replant back in the tank after a water change, and dose the tank with Jungle - Anti-Bacteria.

I've used this stuff before, and it works, I'm actually using it right now, I'm on the 3rd day and I see no signs of the return of BGA.
However, it says not to use it on inverts. I have succesfully used it in tanks with Snails, Shrimp and Scaless Fish

Two things:
One you assume the NO3 test kit is correct. Most are terrible.
Unless you have a known standard to compare the colors against or the kit is a Lamotte/Hach, I'm much more inclined to not believe the level.

I did not suggest to stop sing it once you added more fish. Even a packed Discus tank still gets 1/2 it's N from KNO3.

You also were using PO4 remover, you actually will want to add PO4, not remove it. Fish food is disproportinate low in PO4, it's mainly N. KH2PO4 is a good source.

Limiting PO4 will greatly reduce NO3 uptake. 3-4x as much, more if severe limiting is occuring. Low PO4 also encourages green spot algae on glass and Anubias leaves.

By adding more light you need more CO2 which means you need more NO3(not fish waste, this will over load your system and back up too much NH4 which will produce an algae bloom, this is why we cannot just add more and more fish for Nitrogen to a CO2 enriched tank or any tank with light without algae).

NH4 encourages blooms like no other nutrient. NO3 does not, nor does Fe and PO4.

If these did, I'd have serious algae for the last 15 years, but I don't.

Anyway, add the KNO3.
Antibiotics don't grow plants, so don';t add them or anything that doesn't grow plants.

If the plants grow well, then things will be better and a you will be far happier.

You did not get to this hobby to fight with algae. You got into it to grow vibrant plants.
So focus on that.

Sounds simple and it is deceptively simple, but folks get side tracked on causes and quick fix remedies for algae, the reason you get it: poor plant growth.
So focus on that, getting the CO2 right is the hardest thing, the other nutrients are fairly easy.

Regards,
Tom Barr

PS: The antibiotic cleared up the BGA again and the plant and tank looks great as far as BGA is concerned

Antiboitic of course will remove cynobacteria. It will NOT handle the root cause. Watch out for mini cycle, as an antibiotic will damage your biofilter.
Be prepaird to take steps to ensure that the cyno doesn't come back....namely like has been said many times over and over, ensure that your nitrAte levels are high enough.

I've been able to combad BGA, in three of my tanks, without any antibiotic, or bleach, simply by increasing water flow and nitrAtes.

^_^
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This is my 2nd occurance with BGA in about a year *different tank, different inhabitants etc*. I'm honestly still not quiet sure what is causing it on either occasion.
I have never had a problem with my biofiltration or mini cycle after using Jungle Anti-Bacteria. I choose to use this technique again after the conventional means failed to produce any results.


Last edited by AngelZoo at 09-Dec-2004 11:17

The antibiotic that kills the BGA does not effect the biofilters.

But antibiotics do nothing to cure the poor plant growth.......and since we do grow plants, not kill algae, I'd highly suggest focuusing on that rather than saying a blackout did not work, neither does antibiotics if you don't take care of the NO3 levels.

If you take only the killing part of the advice, you don't grow better plants and then it will be another form of algae that you cannot kill with a pill.

If you followed my advice, you would not have this reoccurance happen.

You can also use antibiotics + KNO3, but why?
Blackout is FREE and is 100% effective at killing it and take the same time as an anitbiotic treament.

Not everyone can buy antibiotics either.
But you need to add the KNO3 afterwards.
It's not hard, dump 1/4 teaspoon in per 20 gal 1-2x a week, 2-3x a week if you have higher light and lots of growth/less fish etc.


Regards,
Tom Barr

It's not hard, dump 1/4 teaspoon in per 20 gal 1-2x a week, 2-3x a week if you have higher light and lots of growth/less fish etc.

So then I'm looking at around 1/2 teaspoon for my 46, correct? Before I was adding 1/8 teaspoon per 20 gallons, perhaps that why i wasnt able to keep my nitrates up.

and what amount of KH2PO4 do you suggest adding?

just out of curiosity, you also mention that most nitrate tests are unreliable - why is that?

Last edited by nowherman6 at 13-Dec-2004 08:15

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Back in the saddle!

NO3 test kits are very tough read in the 5-10ppm range.
I'm not sure why the kits are so so at best and the Lamotte is. I test the kits against know standards in the range I'm interested in units of 1 to 2 ppm NO3.

You can do this yourself, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator(do a search) to make a known solution to compare the kit against.

For a 46 gal, just double the amounts dosed.
Maybe 1/4 of a 1/4 teaspoon of KH2PO4, maybe 3-4 rice grain's worth roughly.

Regards,
Tom Barr

well, black out is over and the BGA is gone.

after doing a water change I added 1/2 teaspoon of KNO3 (1/4 per 20 gallons), regular trace elements and flourish excel (until I get a real CO2 setup). hope this will work out. thanks for your help, especially plantbrain. it's much appreciated

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Back in the saddle!