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I don't think Anubias are real.

I've seen in two circumstances where I had an anubias rhizome buried too far into the substrate and the rhizome rotted. But did the plant show any signs of stress? Nope. No discoloring, no loss of leaves. Just no new leaves. Everything stayed green and healthy looking until i touched the rhizome, which then melted in my hands. Not only did they not know they were under water, they didn't even know they were dead

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 13-Jan-2006 09:07

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Back in the saddle!

I have an anubias setting in a bucket in my garage for about 3 weeks (remember the anubias in my 72g) I took it out and hade nothing to do with it. My garage averages about 40 degrees this time of year and it still looks fine.

I don't think Anubias are real.

My Scapes

Chaos,

Cool on the anubias With a hardy plant like that the overseas shipping shouldn't be a problem, HC may be more delicate (I know very little about this plant, other than it looks terrific). Goodluck with the tear down.

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Back in the saddle!

And just as a side note: My low light, medium planted 20G was established without anything, I just added water, plants, and few days later the first 2 fish (platies).
Yes, you don't need to use any bio starter product, but it should speed up the process of getting the biofilter going especially in a thinly planted tank.

My Scapes

Chaos,

I he suggests you don’t get the HC from him then do so. It is a long way for a tiny light hungry plant and chances are high that it wouldn’t make it.

I see that you have really set your mind on HC, but if all else fails, couldn’t you plant Glosso first and later replace it with HC? That should take some pressure of you.

I ran Bio Spira in my first tank with a carbon filter, and it worked just fine, given that you follow the dosing instructions of course.

And just as a side note: My low light, medium planted 20G was established without anything, I just added water, plants, and few days later the first 2 fish (platies).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Ok, well im going to tear it down mostly so I can get the dust out of the substrate. It might take a ton of water but it would be convientent.

Tetra- I dont immagine you could lie while upsidedown in your tank... Its the biospira I will dose with whenever the momentous occasion comes. Does the biospira have the advice against the carbon because it will use the NH4 the bacteria need to establish? THat would make sense, I was confused before.

NowhereMan- I was rereading your first post on this page and I think I was unclear. I innitaly overlooked the guy who you pointed out because the auction name seemed wierd. His plants with the 30 leaves each are significantly larger than any others I have come across. So... Thank you for the pointer, he will be shipping me the anubis as soon as I can decide weather I will buy his HC and faster shipping or if I can find HC here (which was his suggestion).

Chaos

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- - - Humorous Bit of Wisdom - - -

If you setup the tank and had the light running, believe you have life forms developing just from the nh3 and minute waste elements in tap water.

If there's nothing really in the tank but hardscape I agree as well to take it down. Like you said it's sort of rinsing everthing again.

Chaos, I would definitely recommend using carbon in the filter for a few weeks. I never heard of a conflict between carbon and the biofilter. If you are planting densely (which your not) and if your "seeding" the tank with another tank's biofilter (which I don't think you are) the carbon will bridge the gap for nh3 control until the biofilter and plants get established. Amano used carbon in his startups and Eheim which is a very trusted german aquarium supplier known for filters that rely more on biofilteration than other brands, recommnends it's use for the first few weeks. Just look at my avatar would that face lie.[img src='/images/forums/halo.gif' border=0]

Last edited by tetratech at 12-Jan-2006 16:46

My Scapes

I am with NowherMan6,

If you want to, tear it down.

It is a small tank and will not give you any trouble in rebuilding.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

No reason not to tear it down if you want, just don't leave the light running if there's nothing in there, try to keep it dark - otherwise you invite the risk of algae right off the bat, which would put you in a hole from the start.

EDIT: Actually, if everything isn't as you want it i would dare say it's better to tear it down and reorganize now before anything living goes in the tank, including bio-spira...

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 12-Jan-2006 16:25

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Back in the saddle!

Well, this is the thing, I pretty much got the tank ready to go more than a week ago, then realized that I couldnt get any of the plants locally and started looking for them. As it is the tank has no biological activity I have added, no fish, plants or anything. There is DW, rocks, and substrate. I dont have a test kit yet, but I am willing to assume that the NH4 is the same as the drinking water. There is no carbon in the tank b/c i expecte to have used the biospira by now and it says not to use carbon for a while after you start up the cycle.

Like i said I have located my plants, but they wont be here for probably 7 more days at least. Should I drain the tank and let everything dry? I was hesitant to do that because I dont think I should let the gravel sit with stagnant water. Though I wouldnt mind if I had a chance to rinse the gravel again, that is if I removed it from the tank which would be messy. Physically draining the tank is easy, Im just wondering if anyone knows a reason I shouldnt, for the time untill I get the plants.

Chaos

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Well a bacterial bloom basically develops because their is too much waste for the biofilter to handle. So if your feeding alot and add too much fish etc you might get a bloom. Did you start the tank with carbon? What's in it.
Check your nh3 numbers.

My Scapes

Somebody once said they are so slow growing they don't even realise they're underwater.

I believe that's from the Tropica website...


...ugh, you know you're mental when you can recognize quotes from the tropica website...


Anyway, Chaos - it may just be from the inital stirring up of silt, as you call it. The only reason I'm not sure if it's a bloom is because I've only heard of bacterial blooms occuring when there is ammonia present, during cycling. You don't have to ADD bacteria, it'll just get there on its own. It's floating around in the air, in the water. It helps to add bio-spira or whatnot when starting up a new tank because that puts a big fat colony of bacteria in the tank already, but given a source of food, these bacteria will multiply on their own regardless of how they get there.

Regarding your cloudiness, it could be a number of things - dust from the substrate, from the rocks in the tank, it could even be an algae bloom....

Any one with more experience with bacterial blooms, please chime in here - I've only cycled one tank in my life, I could be wrong about the above.

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Back in the saddle!

Chaos. It's normal for the tank to take on a cloudiness for a few days. When did you add water and start filteration?

My Scapes

I have almost secured my source for nana petite nad I believe I will have a source for HC in the next day or two and am very excited.

One question, Nowhereman, in another thread mentiond that cloudyness in water could be a bacterial bloom, at the beginning of the tank. Right now there is a bit of white cloudyness in my tank and I was wondering if that was what this is. If it is bacteria it makes me nervous because I havent introduced any bacteria so anything growing is probably a contaminant. I will mention though that this cloudyness was left after some silt got stirred up. I only worry because it got stirred up a little before and became totaly clear, not foggy that time.

Chaos

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All hail Chaos Maximus !!!

You're not quite getting me on the mound idea. The samples you posted are examples of a style known as "iwagumi", surprisingly difficult to pull off.

The design I'm thinking of is like the one below, which is a tank by Jeff Senske, one of my favorite scapers.

The advantage is it's esay to do and more importantly maintain. It's the type of tank that stays looking good for years. I think it's ideal for the tank size/shape you have and is really the only way to ustilise that thick wood effectively.

You can see the rocks wood and plants are piled up in the center creating a mound. Note the foreground is not planted to cut down on maintenance. The Anubias hide the wood well with just enough showing to create a natural effect. Very very little work to keep the shape.

You wouldn't need the full amount of light you have but it won't harm either. I'm assuming it's something like 2 X 24watt bulbs which is not a huge amount of light. The excel would help avoid a lot of algae issues especially with plants like Anubias.But if you went with mainly Anubias moses I'd err on the side of caution and just use half the light.
Again note the amount of lights on the tank below.There's 3 x 20 watt bulbs. Not sure of the tank size , anyone take a guess ???
bensaf attached this image:


Last edited by bensaf at 31-Dec-2005 23:38[/font]

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Chaos,

Congrats on the new tank, although I have a rather hard time calling a tank a Nano when it is larger than various members standard tank .

Anyways

Let me try to help you where I can, or at least give you my opinion:

First of all, I have no idea about your substrate as I have never used it and I haven’t heard too much complaint about it either, sorry about that.

Now to the tank itself: You sure do have enough light to grow quite a variety of plants. Also, this much light sure supports your vision of adding a DIY CO2 system, the sooner you do this the better. And you might want to begin reading up on “the other plant need”, namely fertilizers.

Some things I have noticed, but remember that it is only my opinion:

- The heater will sit in the back when all is said and done, right?
- I am not too wild about that background, do I see that right that it mimics a brick wall? A single colored one, either really dark (black or dark blue) or light (light blue to white) would look better.
- Your selection of wood appears to be rather massive and will take up quite some space in your tank. I might be wrong there as wood has the incredible ability to shrink once plants grow in (not literally of course, but from a visual perspective). I would prefer a skinnier branchy wood. Also, based on the fact that you hold the wood in place to show us how it should be laid out, how do you envision it will hold itself once the tank is planted? Last but not least, I don’t think having a rather large piece of wood straight up all the way in the front of the tank will look good as it takes away depth perception.

To the plants:

Well you sure have a lot of options . Glosso should grow in the tank, and so will many many others. I would say that you should flip through a book or two and/or some plant websites. Find the ones you like visually and we will discuss them here. One thing to keep in mind though is that your tank, despite my earlier statement, is still a small tank, and plants with large leaves will make the tank look small. And one thing one wants to do with a small tank is make it look large.

To the fish?

What do you have in mind there. I am a little confused about your statement that you “cant use so many plants that the fish I get will not have much space to swim”. This is less a question of many plants as it is a question of what plants. You can have the whole ground of the tank covered with Glosso and have way more swimming space left then if you add only one Amazon Sword. I guess the right thing to do would be to have small ones in the middle front, with medium high on the side front, and medium to high in the back. Or something like that .

Well, I hope this will get you started,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yes, those "nano" cubes are very nice looking tanks.

My fish question is which light set do you have. I know you have 48watts, but do you have the freshwater planted bulbs or the saltwater. Most people get this tank with the saltwater setup which means you have a dual bulb half looks white and half looks blue (actinic). The actinic won't do much for the plants, so if you have that bulb you really don't have 4wpg, if you have the freshwater bulbs (6700k) than yes you do have the full 4wpg and I would highly recommend co2 from the start or you will have algae problems with that kind of light. In fact if possible I would only run half of the lights until you get the co2 going. The ability for the plants to use waste and ferts will be limited and it will open the door for algae.

As far as the wood, that's a personal thing, but I do agree with littlefish that it's big and too close to the front. I do like working with big pieces so it can work with the right plants to support it, but is does need to be moved back from the front.



Last edited by tetratech at 30-Dec-2005 16:18

My Scapes

The "Nano" tanks usually have the heater and filter built into the back ?

Looking at the pics the light does appear very blue so they probably do have saltwater bulbs. Change them to daylights. The saltwater bulbs will just make the plants look radioactive !

See how big your hands look in that tank ? You don't want them going in there often to uproot and replant. I'd avoid almost all stem plants.
I wouldn't be keen on DIY Co2 on such a small tank, way too unstable. For what I'd do with it Co2 would be unneccessary anyway.

The wood as tetra pointed out is very thick. If you intend to use it there's really one layout that would work IMO.

Go for a mound type aquascape.

Use rocks to support the wood in whatever layout you decide. Cover some of the rocks with moss. Taiwan moss is a good option , it's smaller neater and bit slower growing then others.

Cover up that wood with Anubias Nana Pettite, you'd get away with the regular Nana but nothing bigger. Use the Anubias on the lower parts of the wood and create a mound. Some patches of moss on the upper portions.
Alternately use Narrow leaf fern or Wendelov Java Fern to crate the mound (avoid other ferns, they're too big) and fill in gaps in the rocks or between wood and rock with the Anubias Petite. You can add a Crypt at the back or corners.

Glosso will be a bit of work, stuff grows real quick and when it reaches critical mass needs to be up rooted and replanted. Something like Cryptocorene Parva would work well.Or you can just leave the foreground empty or fill with small river rocks, this will complement the rock/wood/Anubias/Fern mound nicely.

Use Excel. It's cost effective on a small tank, one bottle would last a good few months. It'll help keep algae away from the slow growing plants. Work out a good fert routine.

This would be a very attractive and almost zero maintenance tank. You'd hardly ever have to put those huge hands in there.

For fish , keep to really small ones. A school of Microrasboras would work well.
Alternately a group of Female Bettas, or Sparkling Gouramies. These are slow moving "prowling" fish, they'd love hunting around the mound and wood/rocks. A few nice shrimp like cherries would add interest.

Forgot to mention the snails. Don't worry about them. They are hard to avoid anyway. As long as you don't overfeed and keep the tank clean they'll go pretty quickly anyway. Female Bettas will snack on them especially the small young ones.

Last edited by bensaf at 30-Dec-2005 21:59

Last edited by bensaf at 30-Dec-2005 22:03

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Yes, Bensaf you are right about he light. It's obviously blue.

I think that mound arrangement is a nice idea, but with that plant selection isn't he better off with just 2wpg.

BTW - What's the deal with the temp probe. Did that come with the tank. I never understood all those wires just to track temp.



My Scapes

The fluorite is an excellent substrate but it is difficult to rinse and therefore you will generally have quite a bit of suspended particles in the water.

My recommendation for working with this substrate is to place it in the aquarium with just enough water to make it moist. Position your hardscape, rocks and wood. Then plant the aquarium starting with the low growing plants to the background plants.

Slowly and carefully fill the aquarium. If you think it is filling too slowly then slow down even more. Use a shallow bowl or plate to disperse the water onto the substrate. Once the water has reached a depth of 4 or 5 inches, you can increase the flow ever so slightly as you are trying not to stir up the substrate.

Fuorite becomes much more workable after a period of time in the aquarium, it's just a pain when you want to really make some progress.

__________
"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research."
researched from Steven Wright

Hello all

Little fish-

Ive seen your critcism of 'nano' in another thread so I should say 'nano cube 12 dx' is the trade marked name of this aquarium.

The aquarium has a false back where the filtration is and there is space for the heater to be hidden back there. I was doing an equipment check at that point to make sure it worked.

You have a rather good eye looking at the background. It is an intersting illusion you saw. I had just filled the tank for the first time and there were lots of bubbles sticking to the sides, these create the texture you see in the background. The lines which made it look like brick are the fill lines at the end of a bucket of water. The actual background is just black plastic of the false back.

To be honest, while I knew the measurements of the wood it looked rather skinnier in the ebay auction picture. I was supprised by it but am going to try to work with it anyway, though it will probably create a bit of a chalenge. I am not planning on relying on magic to hold up the wood. I got some slate and stainless steel screws to hold the wood at whaterver angle I decide.

Tetratech- You are absolutly right about the light. I thought the 50/50 bulbs were an upgrade and assumed I would be getting freshwater ones. I will get that fixed in the next week or so.

Bensaf- I think I am following that you mean about the mound but I am not compleetly sure. is it something like these but focused around the wood?

http://www.aquabotanic.com/images/birgitglosso.JPG

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=36

If I follow you the mound will make the wood the centerpiece and the plants more like a decoration, this makes sense because of the size of the wood. Trying to minimise the wood would probably be futile. Surrounding the wood with a low lying grass like plant like the one in the very front of this http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=0&id=18 may be good. Let me know If i understand the idea correctly.

Im going to play around with the wood layout and try to decide about where it should go, particularly the verticle piece.

At the moment for fish I keep thinking about lemon tetras or von rios. these are about the smallest tetras I can find around here (not counting neons which I think might be upset by the bright light)

Bob- Im glad Im not the only person who has had trouble with this substrate. I got the water clear again with a bit of filtering and will be carefull with the flourite in the future.

Thanks all

Chaos


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Chaos

I can already see that we will have lots of fun with you in our planted group.

Reasons:

- You are funny and witty
- You do your homework
- You are ambitious (as can be seen by the tanks you selected as possible models)

You said you read the other thread where I criticize “Nano”, don’t take that as belittling to your tasks at hand, that is not my intention. I just have a different vision of what small means as I am trying hard to someday soon get a “true” Nano with maybe 3G up and running.

Have a Happy New Year, and I hope we will have lots of fun and excitement next year when we (hopefully) see your tank being set up and blossom.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Also the anubias I am getting was grown out of water so I will need to transition it, or could even keep it out of water for a little while if i need to.

No problem. Anubias grow pretty much the same in water as out of water. They don't really need any transition. Somebody once said they are so slow growing they don't even realise they're underwater.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

That looks like a 40g oceanic cube, so not alot of light at all. Also it's a deep tank so the foreground would probably be a major headache from a maint. and growing prospective.

What type of hairgrass is that in the back that would grow in that light?








My Scapes

I guess the plant is Eleocharis acicularis. Although it looks like it grows new leaves out of the base in the Amano tanks I think to remember that Bensaf mentioned that they acrually have new shoots on various heights of the original plant.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

All hail me indeed

Bensaf, i really think Ive got the idea now and Have attached a HD rendering of what I think this would look like in my tank.

http://picshosted.com/v/5794/untitled.bmp

This seems like a good to deal with the wood. A big question for me is while you said this will be easy to maintain will this be easy to move? I will be moving the aquarium from here (was dc) to boston, an 8hr drive in septemeber. This is a ways away but I feel I should consider this.

If you still think I should go for the mound, given the move, I have some questions.

First, for the structure, it will be composed of just rocks and wood? or will there be peat as well. Either way I will be doing rock collecting near my house most likley (depeding on how the creek water looks). If there is no peat are all the plants attached to the rocks ones that survive on liquid ferts alone?

For lighting, should I keep the 50/50s. Im sure I can kind of trade em in with the aquarium company but I shouldnt wait long to do that.

If the foregound was planted with a short grass of some form would that in fact be more maitnece? If there was grass then there would be no need to vacume that gravel so that would be less matinence? Just wondering.

Chaos

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I love your drawing

A square cinder block with fins sticking out, plus little plugs that look like my hair in front of it, lovely

Traveling is never easy, I am most certain it will get messy no matter what you do.

Many plants survive on liquid ferts alone, only a few species require explicit fertilization through the substrate. These usually have an elaborate root system anyway and that wouldn’t be feasible for your tank in the first place, IMHO. In the worse case you would be able to add root tabs (or spikes) in the substrate for the plant that needs it.

I would not keep the 50/50 as the actinic is for sure not doing you any good and actually might (not sure) help the algae. A good K range to get would be 6,700K to 8,000K, 5,000K and 10,000K are ok as well.

Well, foreground or not, maintenance would have to be done. No foreground = gravel vacuuming, foreground means trimming and vacuuming the yuckies out of the plants. To sum it up, plain gravel would be less maintenance.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Yeah, well I assume you actually understood the drawing. Ill assume that I do need a few rocks and will go looking tomarrow.

I guess ill deal with weather or not to plant the front in a while and try to manage the mound thing first.

Chaos

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A big question for me is while you said this will be easy to maintain will this be easy to move?

It doesn't get any easier ! Just pull out the rocks and wood. No plants to uproot. Most will be attached to the wood rocks very strongly by that stage. There's no need to silicone the rocks and wood together. Just pile them on top of one another in a fairly stable manner.

First, for the structure, it will be composed of just rocks and wood? or will there be peat as well.

There's no need to use peat anywhere in the tank. All plants will draw nutrients from the water column through their leaves , they only use their roots if the water is too lean in nutrients. Anubias,Ferns and Mosses are specifically build to draw nutrients from the water. The roots are more for anchoring them to the woods and rock.

Either way I will be doing rock collecting near my house most likley (depeding on how the creek water looks).

Just make sure they are the same color/type. Don't worry about the atwer , you can wash/boil/bake the rocks to get rid of any nasties.

If there is no peat are all the plants attached to the rocks ones that survive on liquid ferts alone?

Ok time for your first fertilizing lesson ALL plants will do very well by just ferilizing the water.No need for fancy substrates or peat. In fact unless you really know what you are doing avoid Peat like the plague.
BUT do not confuse fertilizing the water with just using a liquid fert. A typical liquid fert only provides micronutrients. These are a wide range of nutrients that the plants require small quantites of , hence the micro. You will also need to add macronutrients. These are the ones that the plant needs in abundance and must be present all the time - Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium,Calcium. We also add these to the water, either in powder form or in liquid form if you use the Seachem range. How much or how often is added is dependent on a number of factors,light/fishload/plant mass - mainly is carbon added and if so, how. We'll get to that later. For this tank I would definately reccomend the Excel approach. Use Co2 later when you've becaome a sick sick junkie like the rest of us and have got some experience under yopur belt and want to build that huge planted tank of your dreams. You will succumb, it's a when not an if

For lighting, should I keep the 50/50s.
Get rid of them. They will make the tank look like complete and utter crap ! We are not building a boring mass of grey rock like the salty folks Can you get a K reading from the bulbs. If one of the bulbs is 10K that would be usable, it has a nice white light, anything above that will be too blue and will wash out the colors of your fish and plants.

If the foregound was planted with a short grass of some form would that in fact be more maitnece? If there was grass then there would be no need to vacume that gravel so that would be less matinence? Just wondering.

Yes a foreground grass would be more maintenance. BTW you'll quickly find that vacumning a will be the least of your work worries in a plants tank ! The joy of a planted tank is it's dynamic, it's always growing therfore it's constantly changing. The grassy plants while way less work then fast growing stem plants still require maintenance. They spead throughout the tank by producing new plants on runners, eventually you'll have too many and need to tidy them up and remove some. Noramally this not too much work, it's just in such a small tank it'll happen quicker and you don't have much room for your hands to do the delicate work required. I'd aim for something that never needs your hand to go in. But it's your call.

BTW, that's about the worst rendering of tank design on MS Paint I have ever seen but I catch your drift.

Tetra , yeah Ingo's right about the plant. Unlike the Dwarf Hairgrass it produces runners very high up the leaf. Some people like this , others hate it and trim the runners off immediately. Maybe that's what Amano does. Or as it's him, he's probably using a completely different plant then we think !!! The plant he uses looks very much like a plant I picked up in Singapore and love - Vallisnera Nana. Very very thin, almost hairgrass thin, but much less "stiff" looking then hairgrass, more flowy and a richer color. I have some pics of mine if anyones interested , you can compare.

Last edited by bensaf at 01-Jan-2006 21:12

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hey,

Things are making sense. I feel like I can move forward a bit at least.

For the creek water I am not worried about biological things, Its the chemical ones that concern me. There is sometimes an oily look to the water. I will have to decide if I think i can remove any chems.

Ill post a picture of a dry run of the mound asap.

Thanks for the advice. Chaos

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Hello all,

Ive got both the rocks and wood in my tank. Below is a photo of the dry run of the formation. The rocks and wood are in the tank, but because of the gravel the water is still a bit too cloudy to allow a picture to be taken. The mound looks moderatly big in the tank but there is some foreground left which is good.

http://picshosted.com/v/6705/DSCF00221.JPG

Also, I have found a version of annubis which looks ideal for my tank:

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=101H

Possibly also something like this:

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=002C

or for the foreground (which i know some are recomending against, but im thinking about it)

http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=067B

Also, java moss or some other moss was mentioned. Any suggestions are welcome, particularly for small plants or somthing in the background, though I am fine sticking with the black background at the moment.

I am wondering where I should expect I can find these specific plants, in particular, the tiny anubis plant. [if a web site they need to ship to washington dc] Also, If these are going to take a while to arrive should I get some fish in the tank. I dont know if it is a bad idea to leave the tank without any biological activity that I want (i.e. will anything bad accumulate if I wait much longer to introduce fish?) I have biospira so I think I should be able to introduce two lemons without any problems.

Input on any of this would be helpful, thanks all,

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 05-Jan-2006 11:58

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For the grass, I would be looking for somthing much shorter than the one above, 5cm tops

Chaos

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Almost any fish store should carry anubias nana, I found it out here in the middle of nowhere, in the north, you get where I'm coming from? Anyway, I would stick with the mound and not try the grassy foreground as it looks much cleaner without. I love that tank Bensaf showed. The rock arrangement looks great. That liverwort and the nana would look great on it. There are two java ferns that would also fit, the regular and the 'windelov' variety. I love that plant! And mosses are great for coverage as well. Good luck and keep the pics coming, I'm looking forward to seeing this nano cube emerge.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Maximus,
Ya know what I think you did I good job with the hardscape. It's not always easy to arrange the wood and rock together. Once the green grows in it should look very nice.

All those anubias are good. I'm not familiar with Monosolenium tenerum, but Bensaf might be. There are alot of mosses you could use on the mound including xmas, java, taiwan,etc. Here's a link to a good moss website.

http://www.aquamoss.net/

My Scapes

Almost any fish store should carry anubias nana

True, BUT the Nana would just be a tad too big IMO, the Anubias Petite would be a much better choice.

The Monosellium (Pellia) is a nice choice too. Treat it preety much like Moss, tied it down and it will attach to rocks or wood, easy but slow growing.

Any type of moss will do but my own preference would be Taiwain, it's just a bit prettier, smaller and slower growing. Less maintanence, looks good longer.

The sword you linked too would be too big for the foregound. Tenellus or Dwarf Sag would be better choices.

Another forground option would be Riccia. Tie to some flat rocks or piece of slate with hair net. A few of these will give a thick grassy appearance. For maintaining just pull out the rocks give the Riccia a "haircut" plop back in.

All these plants are easy enough to find but really buying on-line would be your only option, they will not be available in your average LFS.

Those are nice rocks and you've done a real good job on the arrangement. I think this tank could be a keeper.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Oh good, I was really worried I would have to throw this tank back.

I was looking at the petite version of the anubias and think I pointed at that link.

As for the liverwort, it seems like that is more solid a plant than the java moss which allways looks kind of fluffy and structureless. The dust from my substrate gave me a very good look at the currents in the tank and I think, even tied down, the moss might not stick well. Ill look at the website dedicated to moss though just to be sure.

Ill post pics tomorrow of the hard scape in the tank which luckily doesnt look oppresivly full.

Also, and this one is important, Practically speeking If i am going with the petit and the liverwort how many should I purchase, any suggestions on the placement pattern or plant ratios would be helpfull. Im going to keep that cube bensaf attached as a guide unless someone has suggestions.

Chaos,

Any votes on adding fish now or in aprox a week when I should be able to have plants?

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 06-Jan-2006 02:55

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Chaos,

I would say add the fish after the plants. Reasons:

1) Why stress new fish (less than a week in your tank) by making an additional major mess when adding the plants to their tank?

2) Less chance of a mini cycle.

3) After all plants are in you might change your mind on what kind of fish might look good in the tank.

I completely understand the urge to have something moving in there, but I would suggest to resists and wait just that one more week. What is one week anyway in the live span of a tank

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

True, BUT the Nana would just be a tad too big IMO, the Anubias Petite would be a much better choice.

hey bensaf, how much does a. b. v. nana petite cost where you live? You suggest it so often and you obviously think highly of it, but here in the States in most of the online places I've seen it's expremely expensive for such a small slow growing plant. A little quarter to half dollar sized bit of it can cost 8-10 dollars - and it's not as if you can bu a little and grow it out in areasonable amount of time! Just curious how much it goes for by you.

Also, Chaos, nice job on preparing your tank. Small tanks seem like a lot of fun to set-up, several of us are knawing at the bit waiting to work on our own... well, one of us is, anyway...

But i agree with LFs suggestion #3 - really wait until the tank is set up and grows in a bit before adding fish, it can save you a lot of trouble, and you very well might change your mind as to what you want in there after seeing the tank actually set up

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Back in the saddle!

The wet version:

http://picshosted.com/v/7010/DSCF0044.JPG

I suppose I will show resolve and wait on the fish. The company I bought the tank from is going to trade me the 50/50s for the 6500k bulbs. I only need to pay shipping which is great.

Ill try to find a plant store that has the species we were talking about but I did see hight prices one the liverwort I think, so I will have to decide on what Im willing to pay.

Chaos

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I like it! It will look really good with the nana petite and moss growing on it!
Get lots of moss and the anubias, enough to cover most of the mound. I'd also try not to have more than three species of plants, it will add to the drama of the mound.

I see salt there beside the tank, you may want to hold up on that and not use it. Some have said that the salt is not good for the plants, so far I have had no problems with it but just warning you. In my case the salt was there before the plants in the 25g, but the plants went in the 10g and I have not added as much salt to it. In fact I no longer add salt to the tank and my fish seem to be fine. Keep it handy though it definitely has it's uses.

"If you're afraid you'll make a mistake, you won't make anything."
-Family Circus

Chaos,

I Like the way you have that big rock in the front, it gives you a good base to plant groundcover in front of and still see some rock, my only critism is that it looks like the driftwood on the left is touching or just about touching the glass. If so, that would not be a good look it will make the tank look much smaller and unnatural. It looks like your wet mound is slightly more open than your dry mound pic was.

My Scapes

hey bensaf, how much does a. b. v. nana petite cost where you live? ,

Ok I have to admit it's pretty cheap here, $5 will get you a good clump of about 5" by 5"

You suggest it so often and you obviously think highly of it

I do. For a reason. It's a very unique plant in terms of size, looks and ease of use. In some applications, like nano tanks, there's simply nothing else that can do the same job.
It shares all the advantages of Anubias but it's size makes it even more versatile.
Anubias are expensive, but they are a very worthwhile investment IMO. There's no reason they shouldn't last a lifetime. They are easy and undemanding to grow and require almost no maintenance. They ARE a plastic plant that grows.
The fact that they can be tied to rocks, wood or simply planted and kept shaded by other plants gives them a versatility of use that no other plant can offer.
As I say the small size of petite just makes it more attractive and versatile in my book.

If you want to be serious about a 'scape you need the best quality stock you can afford. This is especially true for plants. Try to get the best most attractive plants you can.

The pros not only set up a tank with a layout in mind but they will have very very specific plants in mind and won't start until they have those plants in their hands. Not a luxury most of us can afford but we should try our best nonetheless.
If you want something tall to fill the back most will settle on one of the common Vals because they are easy to find. But there are many other plants that will do the same job much better and much more attractively, the good guys will make the effort to seek out these plants. Their tanks are always going to be better because of it.

Another plant I keep harping on about is Narrow Leaf Fern. For the same reasons. It's one hundred times better and easier to use in a scape then regular Java Fern. I know it's not as easy to find but making the effort will be rewarding.

Blyxa Japonica is the same, as I'm sure tetra will testify. I bet he's glad he made the effort to get that plant rather then "settle" on something else.

Another plant I'm really getting to like is Blyxa Aubertii. I'll be pushing that one next. Don't know why you'd let a val or sag within a 100 feet of your tank if this plant is available. At first glance it's just like a val but it maxes out at about 18", doesn't have the runner chaos of vals, much prettier more delicate leaves then vals, and will easily take on a deep red color.Just as easy to grow. So does the same job as the Vals but a handful of added advantages. So well worth the extra effort to seek it out.

so I will have to decide on what Im willing to pay.

See all of above.

You need a lot of Anubias and Moss/Pellia. They are slow growing so you need to start with a lot.


Last edited by bensaf at 06-Jan-2006 20:38

Last edited by bensaf at 06-Jan-2006 20:42

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I think i will probably go ahead an order the petite. If, as the tank cycles I begin to have trouble with algae or nitrates or something I can get a medium sized plant from the LFS to consume those nutrients. Hopefully I will locate some HC (Im folling every lead I can think of right now) and have that planted. Also the anubias I am getting was grown out of water so I will need to transition it, or could even keep it out of water for a little while if i need to.

Chaos

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Fair enough, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway - just from the standpoint of, it really does take these little plants a long time to grow.

Also, will these be the only plants in there right now? I know it's hard to hold off on planting a little bit at a time (just to have something alive, as you say) but, there may be distinct advantages to setting everything up first and planting everything all at once rather than planting as you go along, namely it helps fend off algae right from the start. A little patience may save you some headaches down the road.


and LF, yes it is a long way, but they have some plants you can't find too often in the USA... plus anubias is a tank, def. hardy enough to survive the trip...

Last edited by NowherMan6 at 10-Jan-2006 12:32

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Back in the saddle!

I saw that auction before and was thrown by the lord of the rings reference. These plants, with 30 leave are probably much larger than the ones I was looking at, thanks,

Chaos

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NowherMan6,

They sit in Malaysia, wow - that is one long shipping route.

You say you got stuff from them before?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey chaos,

Just one thing: I have no experience with aquariumplants.com for petite nanas, from what I've seen around they're shipped in pretty small portions, so I don't know how large or how much you'll be given.

You may want to try a person on aquabid.com called Aquaticmagic

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?liveplantsr&1137553455

A little quirky, but they speicify that each order will give you about 30 leaves, which seems pretty good for the price. It's a buy it now option, so you need not worry about bidding wars etc. and you can always order a few. I've dealt with this person before and IME they are very nice, and express shipping via USPS is available.

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Back in the saddle!

Thanks for that link. Im cheep in genral but if there is a signifcant possiblity that I will recieve unhealthy or small cuttings (I really dont want small nana petites) then ill go with aquairumplants.com they have the petites, for more but I will trust nowhereman's recomendation on the 'whats your favorite store thread' Ill place my order soon so I can actually have something alive in my tank

Chaos

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Chaos,

Second question first:

I have learned for people here about HC, but the particular member that comes to mind hasn’t been around in a while. I would suggest you create a separate thread in the Planted called something like “looking for HC”. It might not bring anything but it can’t harm either. Did you search on Aquabid?

Nana growth:

Ssssllllooooowwww

I seriously doubt that you would be able to make 2 out of 1 within 6 months. If I remember that right then they produce maybe one leaf per month. Leaves can live for a few years. In order to split the rhizome you need to have a sufficient length for both new plants otherwise the one with a very short rhizome will die.

Also, we just yesterday discussed shrimp in tetratech’s thread and one trusted member gave us [link=This Link]http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/71/sort/2/cat/4/page/1" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link]. Although shrimp are not your concern, it is worthwhile looking at the second comment in this link. On the other hand, you could also create a specific thread asking people for their experience with this store.

Hope this helps,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hey all,

For the anubias nana petite I have a question or two. I found that azgardens has some of these plants but they are on the 'limited supply' list and I think i will probably buy about 8 tomarrow. The price for these is 4.50 US, which is about 30% less than the price ive seen on a few other sites. These are supposed to be quarter sized plants, so Im guessing they are reasonably mature. Do any of you know how quickly these grow or have any idea about how long it might be till I can split some of the rizomes in order to get more of them. I cant really afford as many as I think i will use so im concerned as to weather or not I will be able to have mabey 20 in less than 6 months? I dont really know how slow 'slow growing' is with plants as the rest of them, fertalized, high light, and co2 seem to grow extreemly fast. any imput would be great.

Also, if any of you have any HC or know someone who does i would be gratefull to hear as I havent found any that is available. Because i think it will take time to grow out the nana petit I am fine with starting with a relativly small amount of the HC and would be willing to pay for more than shipping.

Thanks, Chaos

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Perhapse I should have said that i plan to mimic design elements. Planting patterns, rock arrangment, overall compostion. I wont be outright coppying a tank if for no other reson than I havent seen that many small tanks. But the mimicry will hopefylly prevent me inadvertantly mixing plad with pocadots. Anyway, I am looking for rock sources at the moment to see If i can find anything intersting. I had a minimally sucessfull rock hunt yesterday and expect I could do better.

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 09-Jan-2006 16:24

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Chaos,

Constructive criticism is always good, even in an area where one thinks he/she is a master .

Yeah, I certainly was implying that I don’t like this wood too much as it seems to big for me. But who am I? I am just one of the scapers that try to do the right thing without knowing exactly what the right thing is. No matter what you decide on doing now, there is a good chance that you will change your mind a few months down the road. For me personally the setting up of a scape is at least as much enjoyable then the display of the completed picture. Once all is said and done I am rather certain that I will get bored and the urge will arise to do something else. Given that I have a rather limited space available for my tanks ( aka wife says “No More” ) I can already see that I will redo my tanks, even if they don’t need it.

About the mimicking of an existing design (may it be a tank or a landscape etc): I read the suggestion that people that are new to “Nature Aquariums”, aka Amano Tanks, should try to mimic one of his existing layouts before attempting do design a tank on their own. While this certainly has some advantages, like knowing the plant selection, light requirements, etc, I can see a few traps in it as well. First comes to mind the fact that a “copy” is rarely as good as the original and as such would create a disappointment for the designer. Actually, the only way a copy could satisfy me is if it would be better than the original. Second, when copying a tank, we rarely know what happened before and after the photograph was taken. When you look at a series of Amano shots in which he shows a few tanks over time you can see that things change quite dramatically. Sometimes one species takes over almost the entire scape, and although still pretty it demonstrates the dynamics of plants themselves. A copied tank might look just like the picture but would potentially require a lot of work (if even possible) to be maintained.

I know that none of the above mentioned might be applicable to you, but I thought it can’t harm if I write down my thoughts ,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi,

I suppose what I was really wondering was if those comments were softer versions of 'I think that pice of wood is a bad idea.' I know this isnt allways the case with people but I like to think I am good with taking criticism, particularly here as I know very little about the topic and dont mind hearing 'you probably bought the wrong piece of wood for this tank.' Id just like to know now so that I dont figure it out in a few months and want to revamp everything, which is possible anyway.

If its to be rock only, it wont be the rocks I have now, it would need to be ones which are visually more powerfull. Ive been actually reading up on the aquascape design and am trying to make this a good first try and expect that I will mimic other things I have seen If i can to get a good start on this tank.

Chaos

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This cause Bensaf to add: “The wood as tetra pointed out is very thick”

But then I went on to say it could work with the right layout and plants. As tetra pointed out the Anubias and Mosses will soften it up.

I'd avoid the rock only idea, there's a differnce between a mound and a lump

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Chaos,

Hey, Rock Valley is copyrighted

Not really though

Glad you like it, and even better that you have a source for rock near by. Do you know about the vinegar test to see if the rock is leaking calcium? Drop some standard vinegar on the rock and if it bubbles a lot then this is what the rock contains. That would most likely not be good for your tank as it creates an upswing of the ph. In itself not too much of a problem, but would potentially create a major change in ph during water change for sure. What is you “normal” ph anyway?

HC can make you lose your hair because it has tiny roots that need to be anchored in the substrate. If you ever tried to anchor Glosso then you might know what I mean, just double or triple the effort that it takes. Sure it can be done though, as many people have that plant (they all are bald ).

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Chaos,

I will give you the link if you promise not to give up on your new tank

His tanks can be very intimidating at first and can make one feel a total loser

[link=Here]http://www.adaeuro.com/gallery.asp" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] it is

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Bensaf,

Blyxa Japonica is the same, as I'm sure tetra will testify. I bet he's glad he made the effort to get that plant rather then "settle" on something else.
Yes, outstanding addition to the tank. As long as I can keep bba off it.

Chaos,

As LF said it's tough to look at those pictures and not feel well "small" but it's really takes alot of doing to get to that level. There are alot of small detail both in and out of the tank that you will learn and you will not know that until you do. Amano is also a photographer first and he get's the most out of his creations back by staff, equipment, etc.

Your original mound was good. It's not cemented in, it can be changed as you will do anyway from time to time.

Not to put any pressure on, but remember "What we aquascape in life, echos in eternity" - Maximus Decimus Meridius

Last edited by tetratech at 07-Jan-2006 14:01

My Scapes

On second thought I do feel like a total ameature again. Oh well...

Im not going to give up, i promise.

Ill have to look at these more, but I think you might be intersted in what this reminds me of. The Bonsai in the links below are very simmilar, I think, because of the way they are themselved a world in mineature. A bunch of the tanks look like mile wide scottish landscapes with all the grasses and great craggy rocks. Ive got to say both those tanks and the bonsai achieve the same effect and are extreemly impressive, imo.

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/assets/images/photos/btphotos/3p2.jpg

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/assets/images/photos/elmsonslab.jpg

Chaos

Last edited by chaosmaximus at 07-Jan-2006 18:58

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Ill take a look, my last tanks had blue or rainbow rock substrate, plastic plants (2 or 3 each), and a rock or two. This will be a much better aquarium than those no matter what, so ill keep my chin up.

Chaos

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LittleFish,

Turns out we have the same idea about the rock. I was actually looking at your rock valley thinking that I could probably pull of something similar. Im going to go to a 'mountian' near where I live which basicly a colection of huge rocks and I think ill be able to find something visually interesting which will fit in the aquarium.

As for the HC I doubt Ill lose too much hair, Im 21 and it is unlikley that I am geneticly predisposed to loose more than a little of my hair. On that note, why is this plant supposed to be stressfull?

Chaos

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