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Lysaer , I like what you've done to the Tank . Looking great.

I didn't know you could't cut Val halfway either , probably why mine all died on me

What happened to the Moss on the Driftwood ?

Garry

before I read something that said "don't cut vals halfway"..I cut them halfway. Ooops.

Well, we will see how they do over time, maybe it works out. Often it is also a question of appeal that makes half cut leaves less desirable.

Overall, looking nice and the fast growers do what they do best, grow fast . Here are a few questions/comments"

- "I pulled out almost all the java moss." - To avoid future maintenance hassles? Makes sense if you would not be able to remove the wood to perform the trimming outside of the tank.

- "I also removed the hairgrass, marsilea(sp), dwarf shainsword, and clover." - That's the big one. Why? Not doing well, and if so - what happened?

- While you hopefully catch a break in moving things around so much , I think it is time to think about hardscape. The one thing I have in mind here is the rocks. The grand master of all scapes, Mr. Amano, points out one thing about rocks that has been proven true over and over again:

It does not matter what rocks you have in the tank (planted tank complient, of course, is a given, as in not leaching calcium etc), as long as they all are of the same type.

Natural waters rarely have rounded and sharp rocks in the same area, neither varies the material from which the rock is formed (like quarz, sandstone, wood, and what not - not good at rock-science here) that much.

You know where I am going with this, right?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

It does not matter what rocks you have in the tank (planted tank complient, of course, is a given, as in not leaching calcium etc), as long as they all are of the same type

Yes, this is quite true and although there are some good things going on with your scape the different rock types/textures especially that gray one on the left takes away from the other good things.

My Scapes

Moss - Actually I removed it because in a matter of days it was starting to turn brown and fuzzy - either it was seriously growing massive amounts of algae or burning up because it was so close to the light and also growing algae, but the look was majorly NOT good, and the more I looked at it the more it bothered me so I pulled it out.

Hairgrass, etc - I actually pulled the hairgrass and marsela(sp) out to spread it out and rearrange it, ended up breaking most of the mars. The hairgrass had so much gunk and crap caught in it that I washed it off and put it in a smaller tank. The idea was to put it in the shrimp tank, but I ended up not having room for it so it's in the 10g for the time being. The clover was just not growing worth a crap, everything that had been growing nice was brown and dead and just collecting gunk. The "micro chain" was all doing nothing. Not dead, not growing.

Rocks - I know, I know, I know. I complain about that often enough to other people. The gray-green rock on the left, this one came with the original tank and I just really like the shape of it. Looks like a shark fin. Hehe. As the tank has grown, though, it's becoming out of place. It does have a rounded side to it that's currently buried in the gravel, I might can shift it around and it fit more. I have thought about that. The problem with it, though, is the blocky big rock I had to introduce on the right to hold down the "pointing" end of the driftwood. This is NOT a permanent addition to the tank. It's what I could find outside - it's actually part of my garden border and I want to put it back out there (it's a corner piece!). But it was a "safe" piece, i.e. didn't react to vinegar or peroxide when I tested it, and weighs enough to hold down that driftwood which has a very cork-like consistency and wants to float very badly, even soaked. As soon as I can find a rounded, not-so-orange rock that I can replace it with, it will be removed from the tank.

I am, however, done moving plants around. Any trimmings I do now will either be going to the 75g whenever I can get it set up, or into one of the 10g's to hopefully make it a couple more weeks until I get my mom's 55g set up.

One thing I'm liking about my fast growers is that they're at the stage they're making "baby" plants. The difformis and ludwigia especially. The giant hygro too, to an extent.

Now if the alternatha and foxtail would just grow as well, and my swords would recover from whatever caused them to melt...

Listen! Do you smell that?

I find it good that you removed your gunked up plants, I would suggest you let the tank settle and then try one or the other again. At that stage, much less gunk should be available for collection

The alternanthera is not the fastest grower in the universe, at least not in my tank. In particular, it takes a while to get settled and to develop some roots, then it can grow rather quickly.

Pretty much all plants in the Myriophyllum group are gunk collectors par excellence. Is it staying clean for you?

About replacing edgy rock with rounder rock: as long as the color fits as well

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

LF: Myriophyllum? Ok, if I haven't used the correct name, chances are I have no clue which one that is.



Listen! Do you smell that?

lysaer,

You could have figured that one out. How many gunk collectors are left in the tank ? I think only one, the Foxtail, aka Water Milfoil, Myriophyllum pinnatum, sometimes also sold as Myriophyllum aquaticum.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wow, lys... looking nice!

Yea, that moss was raised 6-8" below a 20w light, so putting it under that bright light you've got there is probably what fried it. Remember, the stuff can basically THRIVE in the worst of conditions, so you don't need to give it the best seat in the house.

I'm guessing you saved some of it in the 10? You could tie a little wad of it to a lower place on the driftwood and see how it does there.

Are you doing anything with co2?

I'm very impressed, lys... the tank looks excellent! Keep up the good work!

Ingo: I figured that's what you meant but I wanted to make sure. It's actually staying pretty clean. I don't notice it collecting a lot of gunk, and it grows pretty well. The rotala that you mentioned was a gunk collector didn't get a chance to collect, it disappeared in a couple weeks. I think it was a combination of the platies pulling it up and it getting sucked into the filter because it was so small. But the foxtail's doing well and doesn't seem to collect much gunk at all.

Waffle: I did actually put all the moss back in the 10g, and it seems to be recovering. I may use some of it in shaded areas in the 75 when I get it set up, but dunno yet.

I'm running DIY CO2 in the 55 for now, 3 2 liter bottles running to a ceramic airstone with a "collector" over it. Not really sure how much good it's actually doing, but since I put both the co2 and flourish & iron treatments into the tank I literally have seen daily growth increase.

Listen! Do you smell that?

Good stuff with the moss

An' it's good to know you've got co2 on a tank as nice as that.

Have you considered switching to dry ferts when you get your other tanks planted? Dry ferts are SO much cheaper... it literally costs pennies a week to dose them!

Lysaer, I also cut my vals in half (and will continue to do so!!) as the leaves of these plants get way too long and take away lots of light they recovered already nicely from the last trimming. your vals are also somewhat in the middle and not in the back of the tank (which looks nice) and how would you prevent them from overshadowing other plants again?

Now here is a question for waffle: where actually do you get your dry ferts from?

Hmmmm , Now I'm confused can you trim Vals or not . ????

Garry

Now I'm confused can you trim Vals or not . ?

Well, here is my opinion:

Basically, yes, one can trim Vals half way, but:

- As most trimmings would not be a finely manicured operation that would create a "fake" top mimicking the real top of a non-trimmed Val it looks kind of off.
- I have no proof, but I would say that - at least - overall growth of the Val plant is slowed down as energy needs to be used to "seal" the wound created by the cut.
- Injured plants have a lower resistance to negative environment influences, mostly seen with algae settlements on dying or weak leaves.

So for me, the answer is:

"don't trim half way, cut off the whole leaf"

Of course others may have different experiences and/or opinions,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I have to disagree with L_F
Cutting of the entire leaf will not do much good as all leaves of this plant will grow to an astonishing length - buy cutting the entire leaf you will end up with a plant with one or two very long leaves (which will contuinue to grow, hence you trim it) and eventually none at all. Unfortunately one plant of this species has just few leaves to begin with which adds to the problem. Here I have to admit that I am talking from experience (I did not want to cut halfways when presented with this problem first)...

Catdancer,

I actually haven't run into much of a problem (yet) with the vals shading the other plants. Some of the leaves had grown up and started to grow along the top of the water when I trimmed them back, so I think I beat them to the punch. And already, some of them have grown back to the water level!!!

And I love having the vals in the middle of the tank. I think it gives the middle of the tank a nice definition and depth, and I know they're usually a background plant due to the height, but the way they spread and runner out, I think they go better there. Although I wish some of them would do like one did before a rearrange - it literally spread out in a blossom, the center leaves growing up, the outer leaves growing out.

Listen! Do you smell that?

Lysaer:

I agree and I DO like the placement of the vals in your tank! They are nice plants but I have to admit that I am seriously considering to get rid of them when doing my long planned tank makeover. They spread everywhere and I have the 'jungle' variety with leaves reported to grow to 2 metres length and more (about 7 foot) ... I had mine bundled in nice ringlets on the water surface prior to the trimming

Ok Thanks everyone for clearing that up . I'll just have to give them another go and experiment a bit .
Garry

... buy cutting the entire leaf you will end up with a plant with one or two very long leaves (which will continue to grow, hence you trim it) and eventually none at all.

Fantastic conversation, much appreciated

Here is the overall topic in which this specific debate (half way or all the way) belongs: Trimming!

You are all long enough in this hobby and have done way enough research to understand that almost each plant is different with regards on "How To Trim". Stem plants cuttings where bottoms can be reused, others where they cannot, rhizomes that need be severed, and so forth.

IMHO, the way to maintain Vals is not by leaving old plants, injured by cutting the leaf half way, in the tank and disposing of the loads of runners that one gets from them, but rather by removing the parents plant and using the runners in their place. This gives you a young and fresh plant, ready to suck up nutrients and helping to stabilize the tank.

But that is a lot of work, you may say. Well, welcome to the planted tank maintenance world. For that reason, you will not find quite a few tanks that may have started off with Vals but eventually decided to cut them out. Prolific runner producer, long leaves (depending on species though, as there are shorter - but not short - leaf versions as well), and as such high maintenance over time.

But of course, this is just my opinion, but I think I would be willing to put a bet on the fact that lysaer's tank - if it evolves into a true planted and scaped environment (and I wouldn't know why not) - will not see the Vals in the long run (beyond 6 months, let's say). Wanna counter-bet?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Wanna counter-bet?

Probably not, although I have some vals in my tank that have received 'hair cut's' for quite a while. The main reason that I will not do so is based on the info that I found in one of your logs (I think it was Bensaf, but not absolutely sure here) where it was stated that stem plants have to be replaced after a while of constant trimming . Following the same reasoning I can see why Vals will not be too happy about this treatment in the long run. (On a totally diffent note - WHY can you subject emrsed plants to this type of treatment w/o problems?)

I totally agree with you that replacing older (tall) plants with the runners is definitely the way to go although it is also invasive as you have to remove the old plant carefully, thereby disturbing the gravel bed,uprooting the runner and putting it in the desired new location and so forth.

Here is the overall topic in which this specific debate (half way or all the way) belongs: Trimming!

Hey, what is wrong with that, it is perfect for a planted aquaria forum!
I wish we've had this conversation before I grabbed the scissors recently again.

Hey, what is wrong with that, it is perfect for a planted aquaria forum!

I guess that didn't come out right, catdancer

i didn't mean that it should be split into another forum or something like that, I meant it to say something like "let us talk about the whole trimming/maintenance philosophy as a conceptual entity within the planted tank realm".



I guess that is not that much better either

Basically, more often than not you read about people adding plants to their tanks and you read about reports on growth (good or bad), and all of a sudden you find a subsequent entry like "how do I trim this plant" or "plant is growing too big". And I am the first one to confess that I have been making such statements more than once (and probably still do).

Overall, that is where the real art comes in (and I am not there), the ability to foresee how the plants in a tank will grow together and how the look of the tank will be over time and what needs to be done (in terms of trimming, for example) to get the best (as in most beautiful) out of the tank. Amano has it, Senske too, and quite a few others as well, and I think tetratech is on his way (he sure knows it about his 72G plants already), I am still trying to figure this out.

Ah, enough sidetracking on my end,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Overall, that is where the real art comes in (and I am not there), the ability to foresee how the plants in a tank will grow together and how the look of the tank will be over time and what needs to be done (in terms of trimming, for example) to get the best (as in most beautiful) out of the tank. Amano has it, Senske too, and quite a few others as well, and I think tetratech is on his way (he sure knows it about his 72G plants already), I am still trying to figure this out.

Yes that is very true. I guess you could say it's another level of the hobby. You could almost say it's like a broadshow in that one part of the hobby is getting everything to work correctly, positioning plants, etc all in preparation for the show. The show as LF stated is when the timing is right and all the players are ready to show their stuff in one coordinated production. Speaking of shows did you see all the lights and cameras that Amano uses to take a picture of his tanks. It really does look like a broadway production. Having a closet full of sticks and stones doesn't hurt either. Without a big inventory of hardscape it's sometimes like putting a square peg in a round hole.

P.S. Thanks for putting me in the same sentence as Amano and Senske. I'm not worthy

My Scapes

I meant it to say something like "let us talk about the whole trimming/maintenance philosophy as a conceptual entity within the planted tank realm".

Kudos to your beautiful command of the English language

(I like your comment - don't get this wrong; e-mail can be difficult to understand sometimes!)

Overall, that is where the real art comes in

Absolutely, I think you are on the way to the finish line, I am still looking for the starting point of the track ...
- just received my CO2 equipment and I am now contemplating the plant selection...

Uhem, tetratech, that reminds me - when will you post some photos of your new project?

Hi everyone,

First off would like to congratulate lysaer on its way to a nicely planted tank. Im sure you will find a balance that will meet your expectations of the tank and requirements of plants in no time.

(On a totally diffent note - WHY can you subject emrsed plants to this type of treatment w/o problems?)

Here's my two cents...I may be way off but I'm no botanist:

There are different levels of evolution in plants. Emersed plants being more evolved than submerged plants. A simple example of this is the fact that submerged plants need the water to support them, whereas ground plants have developed woody stems and cell walls that will support them out of water. Something to do with the xylema and/or phloema...

IMO, vals are plants that have not evolved that much throughout the years, they show very simple structure and growth patterns. You can basically see the blocks that conform each leaf when you hold it against the light, similar to the pattern found on some algae.

Along those lines I infer that vals have apical and intersticial or intercellular growth(Not sure its the right terminology), which respectively would correspond to growth at the tip and growth to the sides.

On plants like the alternatheras for example, if you trim the top or halfway down the stem, you will most likely get two branches resulting from the cut, that will in turn result in having two tops, at least this is the norm on most angiosperms and it is used widely to spread fruit trees into having various productive branches.

The vals being as simple as they are will not branch out since they dont have this type of structure but a more basic one. Instead the trim at the top will stop apical growth all together and may promote growth to the sides or broadening of the leaf. As Little_Fish so well put it, you are leaving a damaged leaf on the plant and the plant will expend valuable energy to mend the cut at the top and to restart the apical growth if it ever does happen to regain it.

This is why most trims are done at the base of the leaf, since its easier and more pro-efficient (energywise) for the plant to grow a new leaf which is already the normal growth pattern, than to mend or heal a severed leaf that may not regain its utmost growth capabilities alltogether.

Hope this makes some sense and I appologize to the scientific community if in any way I strayed from the facts in this little rant.

All the best to all,

James

well, if you follow this line of thought - what about grass and similar plants? IMHO it is not so simple to explain with vertical versus horizontal growth. The plant will a bit slow down to mend the wound and form a callus but that goes for every cut. Anyway, to put an end to this 'trimming of the val' episode and to put concerned minds at rest
- my vals are growing back nicely and are ready to form ringlets again ... I wish they would slow down a bit, though

vals anyone?

I see your point...

On grass, isnt the idea of lawn grass to keep it low and allow it to thicken up in order for it to form a nice carpet? Thus its the side growth and not the apical growth what is the focus?

Anyway, in no ways I am an expert, but I do understand that different plants require different trimming techniques.

Best of luck!

J