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In my opinion, I would leave the fish in the tank while you are working. Only drain out enouph water so that when you are working in the tank, you do not splash the water too much. After all the work is done, then you can take some more water out to get some of that sludge you turned up from the gravel. Maybee you could post pics of the process, the final position and the before pic?

Good point, bensaf, I'll keep that in mind. In my head i though the repens was much greener than the rotala, at least the main body of the stem, with only the tops becoming reddish. It was more to contrast leaf shape than anything else.

Also, how have your experiences been with ordering plants online? I guess this applies to US residents only. Is 2 day delivery enough time, or would is overnighting necessary. I always order from aquariumplants.com, but I haven't ordered plants from them in such a long time I forget which shipping option I used....

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The Repens and the Rotala are very similar in color. When you put to red colored plants side by side what ends up happening is they cancel one another out appearance wise. Putting somw thing green between the 2 solves this and highlights both the red plants.

Putting either the Wisteria or the Bacopa between the Repens and Rotala would be agood bet as well as the color contrast they have a very different leaf shape which will further contrast the reddish ones.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So, I've been doing some more planning etc. and I've come up with a basic layout plan and I'd like to get some feedback on it. See below.

Basically it's a crude () layout drawing looking down on the tank. The two red dots represent the filter intake on the left, and the CO2 reactor on the right. Does this look like it might work? I think I want the overall flow to be sort of concave, with the tallest elements on the ends, sloping down through the middle. I was going to try to make it slope down right to left, but I feel like that would be overloading the right side. I could try to go the other way but (i) I'm not sure if the filter flow would be too much for the plants on that side of the tank and (ii) I don't know what would be able to complement the large piece of DW on the right. So the more feedback, the better... no matter how radical, i.e. remove that piece of DW, use it a different way (right now I plan on using it in the same spot as in my original post), move the reactor maybe etc. Thanks for any ideas!




NowherMan6 attached this image:


Last edited by NowherMan6 at 26-Oct-2005 14:15[/font]

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Bensaf and NowherMan6,

Thanks for the update on the Reactor issue.

I didn’t mean to say that there are fewer bubbles in the morning and more at night. I meant that in the past I have never had this many bubbles, even when I cranked up the CO2 to 5bps.

In my tank log I wrote that I cannot find any leak as water in the line over night is not escaping.

I just phoned the wife and she says that there are way less bubbles in the reactor than last night. I will see how many are in it tonight and then we know more.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the suggestions, bensaf. I was already planning on using some bacopa carolina... I'll check out the others as well. I'm just worried my light isn't strong enough for other types of rotala...

And again as for the reactor, that's interesting that CO2 saturation can be so high that the bubbles don't dissolve and just continue to churn around in the reactor. Just that IME with that reactor, I haven't seen anything close to what's going on in that picture except for when air - or a good chunk of whatever kind of gas - gets in there. So it that's just how it normally looks with 5bps going though, then that's fine... but LF said that it starts out much clearer then at some point jumps to this state which makes me think too much gas is getting in there. If 2.5 bps doesn't saturate a 46 gallon tank so much that it causes a backup in the reactor, it doesn't seem like 5 would cause a backup in a tank three times that size.

But then again, I'm not the expert here I don't think it could hurt to check anyway.

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Theres a good few options for stem plants.

You can try different varieties of Polysperma - Sunset, Ceylon is very nice a bit smaller an a nice copper color.

Bacopa would work well, a very verticle upright plant.

Hemianthus is great for a smallish tank. Easy to keep, nice small leaves. Mayacca fluviatus is good too, different varieties of Rotala like Nanjenshan. These all have very fines leaves so work good in smaller tanks and will contrast well with the bigger leaves of the other plants.

With regard to the reactor. When you switch on the Co2 supply, there's relatively little Co2 in the water. As the day goes on and the water becomes saturated with Co2 it becomes more difficult for the new Co2 bubbles to dissolve. As a result they stay in the reactor longer and you see a big build up of bubbles. I wouldn't think there's a leak as a lot of water would be pumped onto the floor pretty quickly.

I see simiar in my own reactor. Early in the day very few bubbles of Co2 are escaping, later in the day there more micro bubbles of Co2 escaping and flosting around. My reactor is a different design in that it doesn't have the sponge thing at the bottom so the excess undissolved Co2 escapes as small bubbles. In your reactor they are probably getting trapped in the reactor so that's were you see the bubbles. The phenonemon is the same we just see in different ways because of the differing reactor designs.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

NowherMan6,

Thanks for the info on the Reactor. I was wondering if I had a leak somewhere but these thoughts didn’t pop up until I was already at work. Guess I should call the wife and ask if we have water on the floor somewhere. As to the idea of having air sucked in through the pump, which seems possible as well. Although I did turn the pump off before water change, maybe some air got caught in it and was pushed in the reactor on restart. I will check if I have the same filling today. My bubble rate is maybe 5 bps, but it is hard to count at that speed (not a constant flow though).

BTW, my pump sits right on top of the Reactor. It is a simple Rio 50 that came with the Reactor (PlantGuild reactor, bought from AquariumPlants.com). You can see a bit of it in the 3rd picture found in the link above.

Thanks again, I will update you on my findings,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Haha, I in NO WAY question Bensaf's ability to instinctively know what can make a tank look beautiful. We've all seen the PhotoBooth pages.... but I'm going to do some more browsing fo stem plants to see what may work. As it is, I've decided to add pennywort to the mix. Not a lot of it, but just something towards the foregorund to add interest - it's different looking, ususual shaped leaves but not too large.

As for the reactor, I think you'd have to have a VERY high bubble rate to make it look anything like that. Mine is about 2-2.5 bubbles per second. As for your pictures, yes, I have seen my reactor look like that - when I'm doing water changes and I forget to unplug the power head before it gets above water level - in other words, when air starts getting sucked in somehow. Looking at your pictures, it looks like you don't have the power head directly on top of the reactor as I do. I would check somewhere along the line for a leak, could be in the tubing in the tank, or running from the CO2 cylinder to the tank. But unless CO2 is rushing into your reactor, I would say air is getting in there. What's your bubble rate according to your bubble counter, and how saturated does that get your 125? I'm curious to see how well it works for someone else...

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NowherMan6,

Bensaf usually has a very good vision of what could make a tank look beautiful, trust him.

I have a question for you. You are using the same reactor than I do and I wonder what your bubble rate is and if it looks anything like mine in [link=This Picture]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64425_13.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] (2nd and 3rd picture on page). This dense bubbling has just started yesterday (after 4 weeks of use).

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So basically I should stick with hygro polysperma then? I guess it makes sense. But if that's the case then I'm basically going to be working with three sets of stem plant groupings - the lud. repens, rotala indica and the hygro. I'm imagining the hygro as my primary backround plant, with the repens more towards the left side and the rotala in the left center. In this case, I'm guessing the best thing would be to plant them heavy from the start, rather than waiting for them to grow in - though I know the hygro won't take long to get started. I'm not sure if anyone else has had this experience with hygro polysperma, but for me it grows more as a creeping plant, up and out and every which way. Is there any way to train it to grow up, as opposed to out? That's one of the reasons I wanted to try giant hygro, only because it seems like more of a vertical grower, as opposed to a horizontal grower like polysperma.

Basically, I want to avoid it doing what it's doing on the left in this older pic of my tank. If I can't, I'll have to reconsider another background plant that can grow taller:



NowherMan6 attached this image:

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Back in the saddle!

The light is fine fro the plants you want to grow.

The Lotus even if you keep it low is still too big, =the leaves are too wide.

I'd reconsider the Giant Hygro, it's called Giant for a reason, again it's got pretty big leaves.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Hi again everyone and thanks for the advice.

What you've all said about removing a lot of the organic build-up makes sense, and the same about removing the fish during this process. It's better to have some sort of emergency holder set up anyway, so I might as well use it in this case. I'm already looking forward to catching my yo-yo loaches...

As for plant selection, here's what I've been tossing around in my head so far:

- Giant hygro (hygro siamesis) and hygro. polysperma as space filling general background plants. Im not sure how fast giant hygro grows, but i know polysperma grows like a weed.

- corkscrew vals for the background corner area around where the CO2 reactor is right now. I like their look, plus from what I can tell they'll stay smaller than jungle or italian vals. I'm thinking of having something that'll stay fuller looking in front of the vals, kind of peeking over driftwood - i'm thinking wisteria

- ludwigia repens and rotala roundifolia, just because i like them, and for a bit of color maybe

Here's where we enter the maybe realm:

- tiger lotus for where the sword is now. Im not positive about this because it'll get big, but I feel like I can train it to grow lower and therefore still grow plants at least behind it which I can't do with the sword right now. However, more and more I m feeling like it'll just be a waste of valuable planting space for nicer and less gigantic stem plants...

- E. tennellus for certain foreground areas, in front of the DW, and also in front/ around some planned rock-work on the left side. my biggest issue is, i dont know if i have enough light to make it work.

2.4 WPG, pressurized CO2, 46 gallons. Any thoughts/ comments?

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NowherMan6,

I am glad (and humbled) that I served as an inspiration to you, but your tank isn’t too shabby either .

About the redo process, I think Bensaf says it all; there is nothing I can add.

What I would like to say is that it would be nice if you could document this process with pictures. You could create a log where you show us what you did step by step plus the next couple of weeks (or months) while the new plants grow in.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

just butting in - have nothing useful to saybut I am moving and redoing my 25G this week and want to steal ideas and information

heck at least I am honest!

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

I fully agree with Bernard as to taking all the fish out. Dont forget to take out the heaters to keep the fish and stored water at the correct temperatures.

I personally would take out at least 75% of the water but it is a personal choice.

Before you put the fish back add some stress coat to the water Melafix is good for this, and follow the recommended dosage and treatment.

Also you might like to add same Bio Starter to the system

As soon as you have taken out the water I would remove the filter clean it and keep it going if not all the Bacteria will die and cause a massive recycling problem.

Finally dont feed for a few days and then a very minimal amount.

[link=Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tanks]http://photobucket.com/albums/b209/keithgh/Betta%20desktop%20tank/" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link]

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

You are going to nned buckets anyway.

Take the fish out. Moving them and putting them in a bucket for a few hours is less risky then leaving them in the tank.You'll be stirring up a lot of stuff into the water , possibly including pockets of Ammonia, they'll be safer out of the tank.

Empty half the water into buckets. Take the fish out and put them in this water with an airstone.

Remove plants. Empty remaining water while vacumming out all the dirt etc. If it's a small tank you may run out of water before you have all the gunk out. In this case half fill with freah water and vacumn out again. Keep at this until everything is pretty clean.Don't remove 100% of the gunk, leave a little there, it's good stuff in small quantities. It's only a problem when you have more organic matter built up then the bacteria or plants can consume. This happens to us all eventually and it's a good idea to uproot everything and do a heavy clean up every year or two.

Use the opptunity to clean tank and equipment.

Add new/additional substrate. Half fill tank and replant. Add the fish back a with the 50% of old tank water you kept them in. This will reduce pH shock, temperature problems etc.

This is similar to what I did a couple of weeks back when I tore down my own tank. All fish pulled through fine. Stressed for a while but got back to normal in a few hours. Thought they're never "trust" me again, but were happily eating of my hand again that evening.

One suggestion. You obviously know how to grow plants, that's obvious from the pics you've posted. BUT, you do have a tendency to use plants that are way too big for the tanks they are in. As a result the tanks looked cramped and smaller then they are. Try to stick with more appropiate smaller plants, vary shapes and leaf shapes.This will allow you to create a greater sense of depth and make the tank appear bigger then it actually is.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks you two.

I'll post some pics along the way. I don't think I can handle doing a full out log type thing, but I'll post before/ after pics etc.

This is how it is now:



What I really want to accomplish is layering the tank a lot more, giving it some depth. Right now it just feels static to me, like everything is on the same plane. The DW will stay where it is, and I like the piece of anubias congensis attached to it. The big sword will definetely go, and I'm adding more gravel so that I can create different depths througout the tank. Haven't decided about the balansae, I'll work them in somehow, and I may or may not keep those crypts, though I've had them since the beginning, I'd hate to lose them now. I have a basic idea in my head of how I want it to be, but I have mor eplanning to do re: plant selection and location. I'm going to be away this weekend so I'll post more when I get back, but that's where my idea stands at the moment. [/font]

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Back in the saddle!

I want to stay posted on this topic as well because I'm fixing to replant my established 30. I'm not really planning on pulling up any plants, but I'm adding about 20 plants to what I already have (not much) The poor tank looks so bare it just needs more plants, and I've been afraid to try, but I'm taking the plunge. Good luck to you Nowhereman! I hope yours works out too.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

To all those who have done major replants of an already established tank:

I plan on doing one of these next week. I'm not happy with my aquascaping and my selection of plants, and just witht he tank in general. I want to give it some new character In order to do this, however, it's going to require me messing around with a year old tank. In your experiences, how have you gone about the break-down process?

- do you do it with the tank full, half empty or more? I imagine a lot of "gunk" (helpful as it may be, it's all still pretty gunky) will be turned up when I start to move gravel around and pull up existing structures and plants(especially my big sword), that's why I was thinking maybe it's better to empty about half the tank. But at the same time I don't want to stress the fish out too much.

- Fish in or out? As I said, I don't want to put them under too much stress with the re-arranging etc, but right now I don't have a bucket to put them in or anything like that... is it worth investing in for this purpose?

-and if it's better to remove a good portion of the water when doing this, how would I go about keeping my filter alive over the course of a few hours?

Thanks for any replies. I'm getting psyched about re-doing my tank. Something's been lacking from it for a long time... most likely a lack of talent on the part of our humble aquascaper ... and I want to try to get it right with a major overhaul, rather than try to put it all together piece by piece like I've been doing in the past. And I'd be lying if I said I haven't been at least a little inspired by the logs posted by LF and TT and others (we're got tons of beautiful tanks on here by the way, congrats to you all )

Anyway, thanks again for any advice.



Last edited by nowherman6 at 09-Nov-2005 18:39

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