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Well, besides that fiasco, here are some updated pics:

Here's a side shot, you can see the brown tint to the water. It actually looks more green here than the brown it is in real life. I added some activated carbon, so we'll see if that helps:



Here's another full tank shot, not much gong on yet, some growth, but looks a little cleaner than the original shots:



And here's a shot of two of my yo-yos chasing - my fav fish to photograph :

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Don't worry, there is always something we forget when messing with the tank .

I am a little intrigued by the look of your Tenellus. Are you sure that is what it is? I have seen emersed growth (my own) and yesterday at the LFS again, and although similar it was not the same.

I can see the green/brown in your tank. Tetratech is the expert on discoloring, so I am not gonna suggest anything else .

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks for the lead in LF. Master of discolored water. O.K. I'll take it.

Nowher if your water is truly more brown that sounds like it must be the driftwood or the substrate. Just keep doing your water changes and it should disappear. Bacterial or Algae Blooms are much whiter in appearance.

BTW - I'm really not sure where Bensaf is, when he takes a vacation he's not kidding.

My Scapes

Tetratech,

You are welcome

And I even give you the additional title of "Master of the smart Wisteria"



Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

I think I prefer Wisteria Wizard. It has a nice ring to it. Here's a pic showing my powers. You could see the start point of this shoot. It run's along the substrate and is rooted in along the way. Many times plants will stay low with very strong light. As you know my light is 2.7 wpg with the same depth as your tank LF.

BTW Nowher, I know it's always nice to see your plants pearl, but many of mine done. I don't think I've ever seen my Wisteria pearling and it grows as LF would say "like a weed". The rotala pearls almost everyday and I get alittle from the Stargrass.





tetratech attached this image:


Last edited by tetratech at 15-Nov-2005 09:08[/font]

My Scapes

uh,

I was just commenting on how remarkable it is that you manage to get the red x on the screen. You are truly a Wizard

Then you deleted the post


Anyways, good shot on showing us how the stem stays attached to the substrate

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

The tenellus is strange looking right now, but on most of the plants there are actually smaller leaves towards the "outside" of each that look more like typical tenellus leaves. Once I get my new CO2 hooked up I plan on going through them and cutting off the large stringy leaves and leaving the smaller ones to grow in. Some of those stringy leaves aren't even real leaves at all - they're seed pods, which is yet another way I can tell they were def. grown emersed. I cut off most of them but I know I missed a few.

As for the DIY CO2, I don't know if it's working properly. I woke up this morning and looked into my reactor and i could only see a few bubbles bouncing around, and nothing coming out of the line for a few minutes. But then i'd walk away, look again and the reactor was filled with bubbles, so they may just be coming in there at a very unsteady rate. If that's the case then it'll certainly do for a few more days. One question - can/ should I shake the bottle every day to stir things up?

tetra, nice picture of the wisteria. Weedy plants like that can be grown that way, I used to do the same thing with hygro polysperma. You just push the stem into the substrate, side roots form and root it in the gravel and then boom! instant ground cover. Nice job

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Back in the saddle!

Weedy plants like that

tetratech will understand ...

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

"Weedy plants like that"

How rude]:|

My Scapes

Ohhh, don't get your wisteria in a knot.

I've got both hygro polysperma AND wisteria growing in my tank. I've also got hornwort - the king of all weeds - growing in my other two tanks. I like them all! But you must admit, anything with a growthrate of a certain speed or above is weedy plant, that's just the way it is. They're hated because they love to please. The pickier the plant, the more respected it is in the planted tank community. I didn't make the rules...

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan Good Job

Not much you could do, but see where you are in a few weeks landscaping wise. What's the substrate. Is it eco or black gravel?

Personally I'm not a big fan of the white rocks, I find them too distracting and they draw my attention to them, but I don't think they are really meant to be a focal point. What's the red plant in the middle?



My Scapes

To all those who have done major replants of an already established tank:

I plan on doing one of these next week. I'm not happy with my aquascaping and my selection of plants, and just witht he tank in general. I want to give it some new character In order to do this, however, it's going to require me messing around with a year old tank. In your experiences, how have you gone about the break-down process?

- do you do it with the tank full, half empty or more? I imagine a lot of "gunk" (helpful as it may be, it's all still pretty gunky) will be turned up when I start to move gravel around and pull up existing structures and plants(especially my big sword), that's why I was thinking maybe it's better to empty about half the tank. But at the same time I don't want to stress the fish out too much.

- Fish in or out? As I said, I don't want to put them under too much stress with the re-arranging etc, but right now I don't have a bucket to put them in or anything like that... is it worth investing in for this purpose?

-and if it's better to remove a good portion of the water when doing this, how would I go about keeping my filter alive over the course of a few hours?

Thanks for any replies. I'm getting psyched about re-doing my tank. Something's been lacking from it for a long time... most likely a lack of talent on the part of our humble aquascaper ... and I want to try to get it right with a major overhaul, rather than try to put it all together piece by piece like I've been doing in the past. And I'd be lying if I said I haven't been at least a little inspired by the logs posted by LF and TT and others (we're got tons of beautiful tanks on here by the way, congrats to you all )

Anyway, thanks again for any advice.



Last edited by nowherman6 at 09-Nov-2005 18:39

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Back in the saddle!

I want to stay posted on this topic as well because I'm fixing to replant my established 30. I'm not really planning on pulling up any plants, but I'm adding about 20 plants to what I already have (not much) The poor tank looks so bare it just needs more plants, and I've been afraid to try, but I'm taking the plunge. Good luck to you Nowhereman! I hope yours works out too.

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~~Melissa~~
"Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder."

Thanks you two.

I'll post some pics along the way. I don't think I can handle doing a full out log type thing, but I'll post before/ after pics etc.

This is how it is now:



What I really want to accomplish is layering the tank a lot more, giving it some depth. Right now it just feels static to me, like everything is on the same plane. The DW will stay where it is, and I like the piece of anubias congensis attached to it. The big sword will definetely go, and I'm adding more gravel so that I can create different depths througout the tank. Haven't decided about the balansae, I'll work them in somehow, and I may or may not keep those crypts, though I've had them since the beginning, I'd hate to lose them now. I have a basic idea in my head of how I want it to be, but I have mor eplanning to do re: plant selection and location. I'm going to be away this weekend so I'll post more when I get back, but that's where my idea stands at the moment. [/font]

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Back in the saddle!

You are going to nned buckets anyway.

Take the fish out. Moving them and putting them in a bucket for a few hours is less risky then leaving them in the tank.You'll be stirring up a lot of stuff into the water , possibly including pockets of Ammonia, they'll be safer out of the tank.

Empty half the water into buckets. Take the fish out and put them in this water with an airstone.

Remove plants. Empty remaining water while vacumming out all the dirt etc. If it's a small tank you may run out of water before you have all the gunk out. In this case half fill with freah water and vacumn out again. Keep at this until everything is pretty clean.Don't remove 100% of the gunk, leave a little there, it's good stuff in small quantities. It's only a problem when you have more organic matter built up then the bacteria or plants can consume. This happens to us all eventually and it's a good idea to uproot everything and do a heavy clean up every year or two.

Use the opptunity to clean tank and equipment.

Add new/additional substrate. Half fill tank and replant. Add the fish back a with the 50% of old tank water you kept them in. This will reduce pH shock, temperature problems etc.

This is similar to what I did a couple of weeks back when I tore down my own tank. All fish pulled through fine. Stressed for a while but got back to normal in a few hours. Thought they're never "trust" me again, but were happily eating of my hand again that evening.

One suggestion. You obviously know how to grow plants, that's obvious from the pics you've posted. BUT, you do have a tendency to use plants that are way too big for the tanks they are in. As a result the tanks looked cramped and smaller then they are. Try to stick with more appropiate smaller plants, vary shapes and leaf shapes.This will allow you to create a greater sense of depth and make the tank appear bigger then it actually is.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

I fully agree with Bernard as to taking all the fish out. Dont forget to take out the heaters to keep the fish and stored water at the correct temperatures.

I personally would take out at least 75% of the water but it is a personal choice.

Before you put the fish back add some stress coat to the water Melafix is good for this, and follow the recommended dosage and treatment.

Also you might like to add same Bio Starter to the system

As soon as you have taken out the water I would remove the filter clean it and keep it going if not all the Bacteria will die and cause a massive recycling problem.

Finally dont feed for a few days and then a very minimal amount.

[link=Betta 11Gal Desktop & Placidity 5ft Community Tanks]http://photobucket.com/albums/b209/keithgh/Betta%20desktop%20tank/" style="COLOR: #00FF00[/link]

Keith

Near enough is not good enough, therefore good enough is not near enough, and only your best will do.
I VOTE DO YOU if not WHY NOT?
VOTE NOW VOTE NOW

just butting in - have nothing useful to saybut I am moving and redoing my 25G this week and want to steal ideas and information

heck at least I am honest!

GFG

_______________________________________
Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey S. Firestone

NowherMan6,

I am glad (and humbled) that I served as an inspiration to you, but your tank isn’t too shabby either .

About the redo process, I think Bensaf says it all; there is nothing I can add.

What I would like to say is that it would be nice if you could document this process with pictures. You could create a log where you show us what you did step by step plus the next couple of weeks (or months) while the new plants grow in.

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Hi again everyone and thanks for the advice.

What you've all said about removing a lot of the organic build-up makes sense, and the same about removing the fish during this process. It's better to have some sort of emergency holder set up anyway, so I might as well use it in this case. I'm already looking forward to catching my yo-yo loaches...

As for plant selection, here's what I've been tossing around in my head so far:

- Giant hygro (hygro siamesis) and hygro. polysperma as space filling general background plants. Im not sure how fast giant hygro grows, but i know polysperma grows like a weed.

- corkscrew vals for the background corner area around where the CO2 reactor is right now. I like their look, plus from what I can tell they'll stay smaller than jungle or italian vals. I'm thinking of having something that'll stay fuller looking in front of the vals, kind of peeking over driftwood - i'm thinking wisteria

- ludwigia repens and rotala roundifolia, just because i like them, and for a bit of color maybe

Here's where we enter the maybe realm:

- tiger lotus for where the sword is now. Im not positive about this because it'll get big, but I feel like I can train it to grow lower and therefore still grow plants at least behind it which I can't do with the sword right now. However, more and more I m feeling like it'll just be a waste of valuable planting space for nicer and less gigantic stem plants...

- E. tennellus for certain foreground areas, in front of the DW, and also in front/ around some planned rock-work on the left side. my biggest issue is, i dont know if i have enough light to make it work.

2.4 WPG, pressurized CO2, 46 gallons. Any thoughts/ comments?

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Back in the saddle!

The light is fine fro the plants you want to grow.

The Lotus even if you keep it low is still too big, =the leaves are too wide.

I'd reconsider the Giant Hygro, it's called Giant for a reason, again it's got pretty big leaves.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

So basically I should stick with hygro polysperma then? I guess it makes sense. But if that's the case then I'm basically going to be working with three sets of stem plant groupings - the lud. repens, rotala indica and the hygro. I'm imagining the hygro as my primary backround plant, with the repens more towards the left side and the rotala in the left center. In this case, I'm guessing the best thing would be to plant them heavy from the start, rather than waiting for them to grow in - though I know the hygro won't take long to get started. I'm not sure if anyone else has had this experience with hygro polysperma, but for me it grows more as a creeping plant, up and out and every which way. Is there any way to train it to grow up, as opposed to out? That's one of the reasons I wanted to try giant hygro, only because it seems like more of a vertical grower, as opposed to a horizontal grower like polysperma.

Basically, I want to avoid it doing what it's doing on the left in this older pic of my tank. If I can't, I'll have to reconsider another background plant that can grow taller:



NowherMan6 attached this image:

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Bensaf usually has a very good vision of what could make a tank look beautiful, trust him.

I have a question for you. You are using the same reactor than I do and I wonder what your bubble rate is and if it looks anything like mine in [link=This Picture]http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/forums/Planted%20Aquaria/64425_13.html" style="COLOR: #ff6633[/link] (2nd and 3rd picture on page). This dense bubbling has just started yesterday (after 4 weeks of use).

Thanks,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Haha, I in NO WAY question Bensaf's ability to instinctively know what can make a tank look beautiful. We've all seen the PhotoBooth pages.... but I'm going to do some more browsing fo stem plants to see what may work. As it is, I've decided to add pennywort to the mix. Not a lot of it, but just something towards the foregorund to add interest - it's different looking, ususual shaped leaves but not too large.

As for the reactor, I think you'd have to have a VERY high bubble rate to make it look anything like that. Mine is about 2-2.5 bubbles per second. As for your pictures, yes, I have seen my reactor look like that - when I'm doing water changes and I forget to unplug the power head before it gets above water level - in other words, when air starts getting sucked in somehow. Looking at your pictures, it looks like you don't have the power head directly on top of the reactor as I do. I would check somewhere along the line for a leak, could be in the tubing in the tank, or running from the CO2 cylinder to the tank. But unless CO2 is rushing into your reactor, I would say air is getting in there. What's your bubble rate according to your bubble counter, and how saturated does that get your 125? I'm curious to see how well it works for someone else...

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

Thanks for the info on the Reactor. I was wondering if I had a leak somewhere but these thoughts didn’t pop up until I was already at work. Guess I should call the wife and ask if we have water on the floor somewhere. As to the idea of having air sucked in through the pump, which seems possible as well. Although I did turn the pump off before water change, maybe some air got caught in it and was pushed in the reactor on restart. I will check if I have the same filling today. My bubble rate is maybe 5 bps, but it is hard to count at that speed (not a constant flow though).

BTW, my pump sits right on top of the Reactor. It is a simple Rio 50 that came with the Reactor (PlantGuild reactor, bought from AquariumPlants.com). You can see a bit of it in the 3rd picture found in the link above.

Thanks again, I will update you on my findings,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Theres a good few options for stem plants.

You can try different varieties of Polysperma - Sunset, Ceylon is very nice a bit smaller an a nice copper color.

Bacopa would work well, a very verticle upright plant.

Hemianthus is great for a smallish tank. Easy to keep, nice small leaves. Mayacca fluviatus is good too, different varieties of Rotala like Nanjenshan. These all have very fines leaves so work good in smaller tanks and will contrast well with the bigger leaves of the other plants.

With regard to the reactor. When you switch on the Co2 supply, there's relatively little Co2 in the water. As the day goes on and the water becomes saturated with Co2 it becomes more difficult for the new Co2 bubbles to dissolve. As a result they stay in the reactor longer and you see a big build up of bubbles. I wouldn't think there's a leak as a lot of water would be pumped onto the floor pretty quickly.

I see simiar in my own reactor. Early in the day very few bubbles of Co2 are escaping, later in the day there more micro bubbles of Co2 escaping and flosting around. My reactor is a different design in that it doesn't have the sponge thing at the bottom so the excess undissolved Co2 escapes as small bubbles. In your reactor they are probably getting trapped in the reactor so that's were you see the bubbles. The phenonemon is the same we just see in different ways because of the differing reactor designs.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Thanks for the suggestions, bensaf. I was already planning on using some bacopa carolina... I'll check out the others as well. I'm just worried my light isn't strong enough for other types of rotala...

And again as for the reactor, that's interesting that CO2 saturation can be so high that the bubbles don't dissolve and just continue to churn around in the reactor. Just that IME with that reactor, I haven't seen anything close to what's going on in that picture except for when air - or a good chunk of whatever kind of gas - gets in there. So it that's just how it normally looks with 5bps going though, then that's fine... but LF said that it starts out much clearer then at some point jumps to this state which makes me think too much gas is getting in there. If 2.5 bps doesn't saturate a 46 gallon tank so much that it causes a backup in the reactor, it doesn't seem like 5 would cause a backup in a tank three times that size.

But then again, I'm not the expert here I don't think it could hurt to check anyway.

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Back in the saddle!

Bensaf and NowherMan6,

Thanks for the update on the Reactor issue.

I didn’t mean to say that there are fewer bubbles in the morning and more at night. I meant that in the past I have never had this many bubbles, even when I cranked up the CO2 to 5bps.

In my tank log I wrote that I cannot find any leak as water in the line over night is not escaping.

I just phoned the wife and she says that there are way less bubbles in the reactor than last night. I will see how many are in it tonight and then we know more.

I will keep you posted,

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

So, I've been doing some more planning etc. and I've come up with a basic layout plan and I'd like to get some feedback on it. See below.

Basically it's a crude () layout drawing looking down on the tank. The two red dots represent the filter intake on the left, and the CO2 reactor on the right. Does this look like it might work? I think I want the overall flow to be sort of concave, with the tallest elements on the ends, sloping down through the middle. I was going to try to make it slope down right to left, but I feel like that would be overloading the right side. I could try to go the other way but (i) I'm not sure if the filter flow would be too much for the plants on that side of the tank and (ii) I don't know what would be able to complement the large piece of DW on the right. So the more feedback, the better... no matter how radical, i.e. remove that piece of DW, use it a different way (right now I plan on using it in the same spot as in my original post), move the reactor maybe etc. Thanks for any ideas!




NowherMan6 attached this image:


Last edited by NowherMan6 at 26-Oct-2005 14:15[/font]

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Back in the saddle!

The Repens and the Rotala are very similar in color. When you put to red colored plants side by side what ends up happening is they cancel one another out appearance wise. Putting somw thing green between the 2 solves this and highlights both the red plants.

Putting either the Wisteria or the Bacopa between the Repens and Rotala would be agood bet as well as the color contrast they have a very different leaf shape which will further contrast the reddish ones.

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Some days you're the pigeon and some days you're the statue.

Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability.

Good point, bensaf, I'll keep that in mind. In my head i though the repens was much greener than the rotala, at least the main body of the stem, with only the tops becoming reddish. It was more to contrast leaf shape than anything else.

Also, how have your experiences been with ordering plants online? I guess this applies to US residents only. Is 2 day delivery enough time, or would is overnighting necessary. I always order from aquariumplants.com, but I haven't ordered plants from them in such a long time I forget which shipping option I used....

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Back in the saddle!

Sorry I got here so late. Nowhereman I'm very impressed by the amount of thought you have put into this. Good job

I wouldn't worry about the DW being to overbearing, once the ground cover grows in it won't be as powerful as it is now. Are you trying to make a carpet with the tennelus? If yes, might want to make sure you have enough wattage to reach that far down. If it's just spotty growth your probably fine. If your tank has a focus point (DW, etc) I would stay away from the corners being too high it takes much more work to keep the focal point clean. You eye is automatically going to go to the corners back to the focal point and back to the corners again. If you are doing a more random order of plants or as Amano calls "natures random disorder" similiar to what Bensaf did in his recent rescape then their really isn't one focal point and you could plant more variety in different places but have touches of hardscape here and there.

Good luck sounds like your on the right path.

My Scapes

Hey tetra, thanks.

Re: the tennelus. I'm not really going for the dense small short carpet look, I know my wattage isn't high enough for that. I'm going to plant them pretty heavy though and see where that goes. I figure they'll grow up a bit rather than get bushy, but that's OK because they're small plants to begin with - as opposed to something like dwarf sag which IME can become very un-dwarf-like in lower levels of light.

That's an interesting point about the focal point. The driftwood is there because I like the shape, and it's textured in such a way that it flows from right to left - that's why I was originally thinking that it might be best to plant heavier and taller on the right side and have things kind of slope down to the left. I would leave the rock-work I'm planning where it is, and just prune to keep the left shorter than the right.

Hmm, something like this maybe?



In this case, I'd let the bacopa grow up on the right hand side, and I'm thinking maybe have the rotala in front of that, since the repens has a slightly similar leaf shape to the bacopa. On the right I'd just be prudent in trimming the ludwigia to keep it down, having an overall flow from right to left, with a little bit of an uplift on the very left. What do you think?[/font]

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Back in the saddle!

That sounds like a pretty good plan, but can you prune the Vals on left short, also short is a relative term.

Wisteria I think can be used alot of different ways, You can cut off the tops to keep it spreading low or let sections of the plant grow tall. I use it to create a wraparound affect around driftwood, rocks.

Also many times people scape to hide equipment. I'd rather scape and then try to adjust the equipment to the situation. This way your dont compromising artistically.


My Scapes

I'd rather scape and then try to adjust the equipment to the situation. This way your dont compromising artistically.

Sage advice.

Anyway, the big day is Saturday, that's when I'll be doing all this work... probably will take me several hours bewteen the gravel changing , fish removal, replant etc. I'll be sure to post pics of the whole process as it moves along. Thanks for all the advice so far!

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Back in the saddle!

Well, just got some bad news... my plants won't be arriving until Thursday... apparently a lot of the nurseries down in florida took a hit from Hurricane Wilma and they're trying to I guess get their act back together so the site I ordered from missed their last shipment. Kind of a bummer because I'll have to wait another week, but on the other hand it's perfectly understandable. Actually the guys at aquariumplants.com were very friendly in explaining the circumstances etc., so cheers to them for being honest about what happened. They could have easily said, "Oh yeah, we shipped that, it'll be there XYZ date..." and just blown me off - which has happened to me and I'm sure others before when ordering from certain places online - but they took the time to talk, which is always nice to see.

I'll keep posting once the makeover starts up.

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Back in the saddle!

One more update: for what it's worth, this is the first time I've been on FP in close to a week. Work just got insanely busy so I haven't really had the time to do anything tank related... and that also means this replant I planned out. I pushed it back until next Wed. and I took that day off already, so hopefully it'll work out. Now I just need to summon the will-power to go through with the big overhaul... will post pics when things are said and done.

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Back in the saddle!

You can do it NowherMan6, you have the power

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club

Thanks... I know I can too. I just need to start obsessing over this replant again instead of obsessing over work

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Back in the saddle!

After two extra weeks of waiting I finally was able to redo my tank

So without further babbling, here's a photo log of how everything went:

Started out by removing the major plant systems and the fish. Here's a shot of the tank finally empty before I started draining and cleaning:



The biggest thing I removed was the ozelot sword, which had a HUGE root system, shown here:



And here's a picture of the holding tank I had set up for the fish and plants I wanted to keep. I attached and ran the filter and the heater, and filled the holding tank with water from the main tank as to not stress the fish:



Now here's a pic of the dry tank, with new gravel and the initial hardscape. It doesn't look like very much, but I like it. I buried the driftwood a bit more to keep it from taking over the whole aquascape:




After this stage I filled the tank a bit, then started to plant... and, well, here are a few shots of the final result










Obviously right now there isn't much I can do in terms of working with height, it's going to take a few weeks for the plants to grow in before I can do anything like that aquascape-wise. And I also assume the e. tennellus will shrink down eventually, once some new growth starts. Otherwise I'm pretty satisfied, I'm excited to see how it'll look in a few weeks. [/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font][/font]

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Back in the saddle!

NowherMan6,

I like it. I agree that you will have to wait a while to see how your plants will grow and generate height. I personally prefer to have some hardware (wood or rock) reach up for the sky to create the impression of height.

That is Tennellus in the foreground? Looks different than mine, must all be grown emersed I guess. This will create a nice foreground as the plants should not be so high anymore once the submersed growth comes in (except if you let them grow very dense, like I do, then they will be easily 5 to 6 inches tall).

I usually don’t mind white rocks in a tank (unlike tetratech) but I think they are distracting from your focal area, the valley right next to them.

What kind of plants do you got in there? I seem to identify some Rotala, Wisteria, and Bacopa. Guess you have to update your profile .

Isn’t it exciting?

Ingo

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Proud Member of the New Jersey Aquatic Gardeners Club